Calvin vs. Arminius

[enoob57]

I do not deny that man has the ability to choose and is responsible. He can choose and therefore is responsible. The problem is that his choice is subject to his fallen nature and will not choose God unless God does something in him first.

He must be born again before he can see the kingdom.

He must be given life to live.

He must be given sight to see.

God choosed whom He will to be a vessel of honor and whom He wills He hardens. They are already hard, He just makes them harder.

God chose Jacob to love and hated Esau. This is the sovereignty of God.

Here in is the tension of this! God's obedience 'IS' to Himself for there 'IS' no other-> God creates... satan in abundance of trade keeps the

light of God for himself instead of returning to increase the Glory due God for He 'IS' the only One... man is created in uniqueness of image as it

'IS' the only one and now choice is given to give back to God obedience or not... man decided to choose satan's lies and became the child of the idol

instead of the child of God-> now no man is able, outside of himself, to be (light but dark, hot but cold, selfless but selfish, God's but godless...) we

have fallen! As you have said we must have New Life put within us and this is brought about by believing in Him outside of own entire being as ALL

that He has said of Himself 'IS' the only truth of eternity ->no matter what comes against us<- and because we believe the truth of God this occurs

we begin a spiritual reality and store up spiritual substance by committing

ourselves by obedience to the things of God which gain nothing for this

world but the one to come... as this begins war with our own bodies

and world in which we are for the influence is to lay up as to provide

for... faith is substanced upon hope for that which is not seen and

as we are learned in the reverse as placing what we see as the

faith! We pollute the truth within by acting upon the lies that

are outside of His Word and our S(s)pirit. By recognizing this

weakness we are able to lay up gifts of obediences for His keeping

and this is the person (S(s)piritual) laid up for the new body that can

no longer be taken away by the evil one (for God already has them!)...

Holiness is concerned with the S(s)piritual substance of eternal lasting not with the temporary non living substance of body

and this world... anyone can see that we of S(s)pirit recognize His Word as Forming promises of such that we might die to

temporary and enter into Life Eternal a purely formed faith kept by God's Own Hand Love, Steven

[other one]

1277 posts...... are you guys ever going to figure this out?

[larryt]

I do not deny that man has the ability to choose and is responsible. He can choose and therefore is responsible. The problem is that his choice is subject to his fallen nature and will not choose God unless God does something in him first.

He must be born again before he can see the kingdom.

He must be given life to live.

He must be given sight to see.

God choosed whom He will to be a vessel of honor and whom He wills He hardens. They are already hard, He just makes them harder.

God chose Jacob to love and hated Esau. This is the sovereignty of God.

Here in is the tension of this! God's obedience 'IS' to Himself for there 'IS' no other-> God creates... satan in abundance of trade keeps the

light of God for himself instead of returning to increase the Glory due God for He 'IS' the only One... man is created in uniqueness of image as it

'IS' the only one and now choice is given to give back to God obedience or not... man decided to choose satan's lies and became the child of the idol

instead of the child of God-> now no man is able, outside of himself, to be (light but dark, hot but cold, selfless but selfish, God's but godless...) we

have fallen! As you have said we must have New Life put within us and this is brought about by believing in Him outside of own entire being as ALL

that He has said of Himself 'IS' the only truth of eternity ->no matter what comes against us<- and because we believe the truth of God this occurs

we begin a spiritual reality and store up spiritual substance by committing

ourselves by obedience to the things of God which gain nothing for this

world but the one to come... as this begins war with our own bodies

and world in which we are for the influence is to lay up as to provide

for... faith is substanced upon hope for that which is not seen and

as we are learned in the reverse as placing what we see as the

faith! We pollute the truth within by acting upon the lies that

are outside of His Word and our S(s)pirit. By recognizing this

weakness we are able to lay up gifts of obediences for His keeping

and this is the person (S(s)piritual) laid up for the new body that can

no longer be taken away by the evil one (for God already has them!)...

Holiness is concerned with the S(s)piritual substance of eternal lasting not with the temporary non living substance of body

and this world... anyone can see that we of S(s)pirit recognize His Word as Forming promises of such that we might die to

temporary and enter into Life Eternal a purely formed faith kept by God's Own Hand Love, Steven

So what is it that you are trying to say. I cannot tell if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing.

I see God as absolutely sovereign in everything. He is the only beginning and end. We believe because He give us the faith to believe. Eph. 2:8

[enoob57]

I do not deny that man has the ability to choose and is responsible. He can choose and therefore is responsible. The problem is that his choice is subject to his fallen nature and will not choose God unless God does something in him first.

He must be born again before he can see the kingdom.

He must be given life to live.

He must be given sight to see.

God choosed whom He will to be a vessel of honor and whom He wills He hardens. They are already hard, He just makes them harder.

God chose Jacob to love and hated Esau. This is the sovereignty of God.

Here in is the tension of this! God's obedience 'IS' to Himself for there 'IS' no other-> God creates... satan in abundance of trade keeps the

light of God for himself instead of returning to increase the Glory due God for He 'IS' the only One... man is created in uniqueness of image as it

'IS' the only one and now choice is given to give back to God obedience or not... man decided to choose satan's lies and became the child of the idol

instead of the child of God-> now no man is able, outside of himself, to be (light but dark, hot but cold, selfless but selfish, God's but godless...) we

have fallen! As you have said we must have New Life put within us and this is brought about by believing in Him outside of own entire being as ALL

that He has said of Himself 'IS' the only truth of eternity ->no matter what comes against us<- and because we believe the truth of God this occurs

we begin a spiritual reality and store up spiritual substance by committing

ourselves by obedience to the things of God which gain nothing for this

world but the one to come... as this begins war with our own bodies

and world in which we are for the influence is to lay up as to provide

for... faith is substanced upon hope for that which is not seen and

as we are learned in the reverse as placing what we see as the

faith! We pollute the truth within by acting upon the lies that

are outside of His Word and our S(s)pirit. By recognizing this

weakness we are able to lay up gifts of obediences for His keeping

and this is the person (S(s)piritual) laid up for the new body that can

no longer be taken away by the evil one (for God already has them!)...

Holiness is concerned with the S(s)piritual substance of eternal lasting not with the temporary non living substance of body

and this world... anyone can see that we of S(s)pirit recognize His Word as Forming promises of such that we might die to

temporary and enter into Life Eternal a purely formed faith kept by God's Own Hand Love, Steven

So what is it that you are trying to say. I cannot tell if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing.

I see God as absolutely sovereign in everything. He is the only beginning and end. We believe because He give us the faith to believe. Eph. 2:8

That is the point Larry what we speak of is God's choosing out a bride for His Son and the bride choosing The Son for Her Husband... What I have

written above is how far I have got in my understanding thus far...it is silly for us to feel the need to defend God's Sovereingty (It simply 'IS') Love, Steven

[larryt]

I do not deny that man has the ability to choose and is responsible. He can choose and therefore is responsible. The problem is that his choice is subject to his fallen nature and will not choose God unless God does something in him first.

He must be born again before he can see the kingdom.

He must be given life to live.

He must be given sight to see.

God choosed whom He will to be a vessel of honor and whom He wills He hardens. They are already hard, He just makes them harder.

God chose Jacob to love and hated Esau. This is the sovereignty of God.

Here in is the tension of this! God's obedience 'IS' to Himself for there 'IS' no other-> God creates... satan in abundance of trade keeps the

light of God for himself instead of returning to increase the Glory due God for He 'IS' the only One... man is created in uniqueness of image as it

'IS' the only one and now choice is given to give back to God obedience or not... man decided to choose satan's lies and became the child of the idol

instead of the child of God-> now no man is able, outside of himself, to be (light but dark, hot but cold, selfless but selfish, God's but godless...) we

have fallen! As you have said we must have New Life put within us and this is brought about by believing in Him outside of own entire being as ALL

that He has said of Himself 'IS' the only truth of eternity ->no matter what comes against us<- and because we believe the truth of God this occurs

we begin a spiritual reality and store up spiritual substance by committing

ourselves by obedience to the things of God which gain nothing for this

world but the one to come... as this begins war with our own bodies

and world in which we are for the influence is to lay up as to provide

for... faith is substanced upon hope for that which is not seen and

as we are learned in the reverse as placing what we see as the

faith! We pollute the truth within by acting upon the lies that

are outside of His Word and our S(s)pirit. By recognizing this

weakness we are able to lay up gifts of obediences for His keeping

and this is the person (S(s)piritual) laid up for the new body that can

no longer be taken away by the evil one (for God already has them!)...

Holiness is concerned with the S(s)piritual substance of eternal lasting not with the temporary non living substance of body

and this world... anyone can see that we of S(s)pirit recognize His Word as Forming promises of such that we might die to

temporary and enter into Life Eternal a purely formed faith kept by God's Own Hand Love, Steven

So what is it that you are trying to say. I cannot tell if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing.

I see God as absolutely sovereign in everything. He is the only beginning and end. We believe because He give us the faith to believe. Eph. 2:8

That is the point Larry what we speak of is God's choosing out a bride for His Son and the bride choosing The Son for Her Husband... What I have

written above is how far I have got in my understanding thus far...it is silly for us to feel the need to defend God's Sovereingty (It simply 'IS') Love, Steven

This thread is to discuss the points of what is referred to as Calvinism and the points referred to as Arminianism. As I have stated before I fully believe that someone can preach those doctrines and not Preach Christ. I also fully believe that Arminianism does not hold water in any of their points. I have yet to see anyone defend any of the DAISY points. It is always an attack on the TULIP points. While preachingTULIP will not necessarily lead to conversion to Christ, Preaching Christ will lead to an understanding of TULIP. We come to an understanding of doctrine through Christ, but we will not come to an understanding of Christ through doctrine.

No one will choose the Son for her Husband unless they have FIRST been chosen by the Son as His Bride.

He simply IS

In Love LT

[fixxser]

The reason why both positions are in the bible is because both are true.

God has free will to accomplish both as true.

[larryt]

The reason why both positions are in the bible is because both are true.

God has free will to accomplish both as true.

Well OK.

How about backing up from scripture how you come to this conclusion. And I do not believe that both possitions are true. God's will is free and sovereige but how does that have bearing on both being true.

LT

[fixxser]

The reason why both positions are in the bible is because both are true.

God has free will to accomplish both as true.

Well OK.

How about backing up from scripture how you come to this conclusion. And I do not believe that both possitions are true. God's will is free and sovereige but how does that have bearing on both being true.

LT

There are too many types in the old testament and scripture in the new to go into a study. I dont have the time right now. Perhaps I will do a study sometime. Hey, I got a new project now!

But, for one example of salvation in the old testament type is: The Jews were a chosen people and the Gentiles had a choice.

[larryt]

The reason why both positions are in the bible is because both are true.

God has free will to accomplish both as true.

Well OK.

How about backing up from scripture how you come to this conclusion. And I do not believe that both possitions are true. God's will is free and sovereige but how does that have bearing on both being true.

LT

There are too many types in the old testament and scripture in the new to go into a study. I dont have the time right now. Perhaps I will do a study sometime. Hey, I got a new project now!

But, for one example of salvation in the old testament type is: The Jews were a chosen people and the Gentiles had a choice.

The fact that ALL men choose is not the question. It is whether or not the can, are able to choose in the unregenerate man. The Jews were chosen but they still had to choose individually. Only Caleb and Joshua entered the promised land. The rest chose not to believe(Heb. 3:18)

You claim that BOTH are true. All you have to do is show where daisy is true if you can.

LT

[enoob57]

The reason why both positions are in the bible is because both are true.

God has free will to accomplish both as true.

Well OK.

How about backing up from scripture how you come to this conclusion. And I do not believe that both possitions are true. God's will is free and sovereign but how does that have bearing on both being true.

LT

There are too many types in the old testament and scripture in the new to go into a study. I dont have the time right now. Perhaps I will do a study sometime. Hey, I got a new project now!

But, for one example of salvation in the old testament type is: The Jews were a chosen people and the Gentiles had a choice.

The fact that ALL men choose is not the question. It is whether or not the can, are able to choose in the unregenerate man. The Jews were chosen but they still had to choose individually. Only Caleb and Joshua entered the promised land. The rest chose not to believe(Heb. 3:18)

You claim that BOTH are true. All you have to do is show where daisy is true if you can.

LT

Larry I believe the crux of the issue lies in these two understandings:

Ge 3:22-24

22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.

And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" —

23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.

NKJV

Ro 3:10-12

10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable;

There is none who does good, no, not one."

NKJV

If we say this was a progression of the leaven of sin so that the beginning statement of God is now null

and void Gen 3:22 then you will have difficulty in two areas:

Ro 1:20-23 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,

even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God,

nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the

truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

NKJV

Ro 9:14-18

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared

in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

NKJV

In our reasoning with God (in obedience Isa 1:18-20) We are required to see Him as completely Holy (the complete absence of Sin in any form or exist)

GOD 'IS' HOLINESS

Ps 22:3; Jn 17:11.

In His Being- Isa 57:15; Lk 1:49.

In His Words- Ps 60:6; Jer 23:9, Eph 5:26.

In His Works- Lk 23:34.

In His Kingdom- Ps 47:8.

This is enough for me to resolve my inability to set in the councils of His Sovereignty and mans freedom to choose even in sin....

BUT this much I do know if You put it all upon God then you have God responsible for sin! Allowance is not responsibility for

being! As God has accredited satan for being father of sins!

This is definitely a path as we see, although narrow, has two sides! >God's Sovereignty ^ Man's choice< Love, Steven