Calvin vs. Arminius

[rjp34652]

Man is not autonomous.  Man cannot live as he chooses and expect to somehow be escape the consequences of what he has done.  

 

Even God is restricted by His own law, His own personality and the consequences of His own actions.  That's the way heaven and earth are created and that's the way all of us must live, yet the core of the discussion of free will ALWAYS devolves about the human tendency toward debauchery.   How can we sin and get away with it?  THAT

 

We are, all of us, subject to the whims of society our own physical and mental limitations and the desires of the Lord of History - Jesus.

[His_disciple3]

Delivered by

C. H. SPURGEON,

At New Park Street Chapel, Southwark.

On a Lord's-day Evening in the winter of 1857

The doctrine of Holy Scripture is this, that God is just, that Christ died in the stead of his people, and that, as God is just, he will never punish one solitary soul of Adam's race for whom the Saviour did thus shed his blood. The Saviour did, indeed, in a certain sense, die for all; all men receive many a mercy through his blood, but that he was the Substitute and Surety for all men, is so inconsistent, both with reason and Scripture, that we are obliged to reject the doctrine with abhorrence. No, my soul, how shalt thou be punished if thy Lord endured thy punishment for thee? Did he die for thee? O my soul, if Jesus was not thy Substitute, and did not die in thy very stead, then he is no Saviour to thee! But if he was thy Substitute, if he suffered as thy Surety, in thy stead, then, my soul, "Who is he that condemneth?" Christ hath died, yea, rather, hath risen again, and sitteth at the right hand of God, and maketh intercession for us.

[enoob57]

Delivered by

C. H. SPURGEON,

At New Park Street Chapel, Southwark.

On a Lord's-day Evening in the winter of 1857

The doctrine of Holy Scripture is this, that God is just, that Christ died in the stead of his people, and that, as God is just, he will never punish one solitary soul of Adam's race for whom the Saviour did thus shed his blood. The Saviour did, indeed, in a certain sense, die for all; all men receive many a mercy through his blood, but that he was the Substitute and Surety for all men, is so inconsistent, both with reason and Scripture, that we are obliged to reject the doctrine with abhorrence. No, my soul, how shalt thou be punished if thy Lord endured thy punishment for thee? Did he die for thee? O my soul, if Jesus was not thy Substitute, and did not die in thy very stead, then he is no Saviour to thee! But if he was thy Substitute, if he suffered as thy Surety, in thy stead, then, my soul, "Who is he that condemneth?" Christ hath died, yea, rather, hath risen again, and sitteth at the right hand of God, and maketh intercession for us.

Limited atonement is denial of the literal sense of many Scriptures but the most direct is here

Acts 13:46

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should

first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of

everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

KJV

Love, Steven

[missmuffet]

Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.


 

[Donibm]

TULIP didn't originate with CAlvanism ... to the great surprise of most people.

 

 

There is a very, very good debate between Baptist (Calvanist) Dr. Timothy White and Jew (Armanist) Dr. Brown.  YouTube it.  If its the telephone debate, its the wrong one.  But if you find the one that they are standing live, that is the right one.  It is two hours long.

 

Dr White does NOT support "hyper Calvanist" nor does he support the "once saved, always saved, so sin as you like" license to sin, nor does he support Calvanist pastors who refuse to preach the full gospel just because they think God is to do it all.  Dr. White believes in "selection", not that other stuff.

[EnochBethany]

Verily, it hath been posted: "Dr White does NOT support "hyper Calvanist" nor does he support the "once saved, always saved, so sin as you like" license to sin, nor does he support Calvanist pastors who refuse to preach the full gospel just because they think God is to do it all.  Dr. White believes in "selection", not that other stuff."

 

1) If one speaks of being saved, but denies once saved, always saved, then one does not even mean that same thing that I mean when I say I am saved.  I do not mean that I have a chance for eternal life if . . . .  I mean that I have been transformed, metamorphosized from sinner to child of God, born again with eternal life.

 

2) Realizing that the Lord Jesus has saved me & that I am secure because He paid the price for all my sins on the cross, has never motivated me to sin.  It inspired the deepest, most profound gratitude & desire not to cause sorrow to the One Who loves me so.

[saved34]

Verily, it hath been posted: "Dr White does NOT support "hyper Calvanist" nor does he support the "once saved, always saved, so sin as you like" license to sin, nor does he support Calvanist pastors who refuse to preach the full gospel just because they think God is to do it all.  Dr. White believes in "selection", not that other stuff."

 

1) If one speaks of being saved, but denies once saved, always saved, then one does not even mean that same thing that I mean when I say I am saved.  I do not mean that I have a chance for eternal life if . . . .  I mean that I have been transformed, metamorphosized from sinner to child of God, born again with eternal life.

 

2) Realizing that the Lord Jesus has saved me & that I am secure because He paid the price for all my sins on the cross, has never motivated me to sin.  It inspired the deepest, most profound gratitude & desire not to cause sorrow to the One Who loves me so.

If we could only persuade our brothers and sisters on the opposite side of OSAS of this great truth. Many of them see OSAS as promoting a sinful lifestyle when it actually promotes the exact opposite. A heart full of gratitude that is compelled to please him who called us out of darkness into light.

[EnochBethany]

 

Verily, it hath been posted: "Dr White does NOT support "hyper Calvanist" nor does he support the "once saved, always saved, so sin as you like" license to sin, nor does he support Calvanist pastors who refuse to preach the full gospel just because they think God is to do it all.  Dr. White believes in "selection", not that other stuff."

 

1) If one speaks of being saved, but denies once saved, always saved, then one does not even mean that same thing that I mean when I say I am saved.  I do not mean that I have a chance for eternal life if . . . .  I mean that I have been transformed, metamorphosized from sinner to child of God, born again with eternal life.

 

2) Realizing that the Lord Jesus has saved me & that I am secure because He paid the price for all my sins on the cross, has never motivated me to sin.  It inspired the deepest, most profound gratitude & desire not to cause sorrow to the One Who loves me so.

If we could only persuade our brothers and sisters on the opposite side of OSAS of this great truth. Many of them see OSAS as promoting a sinful lifestyle when it actually promotes the exact opposite. A heart full of gratitude that is compelled to please him who called us out of darkness into light.

 

14 For the love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;  15 and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again.

 

We who died to sin, how shall we anymore live therein?

 

It may seem strange, but the Lord cares greatly that we trust Him.  Why should He set the condition of salvation that we trust Him?

 

IMHO, the unregenerate person does not want to be saved by grace.  For to have to be saved by grace goes along with depravity. 

 

The unregenerate mindset:

Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me?  Why that is an affront to the dignity.  The problem is self-esteem; I don't love my self enough; I don't respect myself enough.

Why I don't need grace; for I am a good person, and God would be honored to have me live with Him with all the good deeds I do. 

 

I cannot accept that a person who says he can lose his salvation is saved at all -- for he does not trust Christ as His Savior; he does not trust that Christ is definitely going to get him to Heaven.

[ajchurney]

EnochBethany,

You said, "I cannot accept that a person who says he can lose his salvation is saved at all -- for he does not trust Christ as His Savior; he does not trust that Christ is definitely going to get him to Heaven."

 

If you actually mean what you wrote, you contradict yourself fiercely. You argue elsewhere vociferously that salvation is grace through faith plus nothing, and now you find it hard to imagine a saved person who doesn't tow your razor-fine doctrinal line here. Shame on you! I seriously cannot believe you posted this! I happened to believe strongly in eternal security for a number of scriptural reasons. However, I wrestled for years with the issues, though never disbelieving I was truly born again, or that Christ had paid my debt. I was simply wrestling with some difficult scriptures, as well as wanting to make sure that I was not assuming or misunderstanding anything. If you do not personally know someone that shows all the fruit of being born again who leans toward the possibility of being able to fall away and reject God, then I wonder how small your circle of association has been. I have known a number of very godly and faithful pastors who disagree with me on eternal security, but passionately love and serve Jesus Christ. I appreciate so much of what you post on Worthy, but your prejudice here honestly shocks me. 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, to all.

I used to be a Fundamental, Independent, Fellowship Baptist. As such, we leaned more toward the Calvinist belief system rather than the Arminian system. That’s why I voted 60%. We often called ourselves “three-point Calvinists,” believing in the Total Depravity, the Unconditional Election, and the Perseverance of the Saints, rejecting the Limited Atonement and the Irresistible Grace portions, because Jesus died for all and Free Will would not be possible if God had already chosen who would be saved and who wouldn’t. We used to use the "doorway analogy”: Above the door to Salvation, on the outside, the words were “Whosoever will may come,” and on the inside, the words above the door were “Saved before the foundation of the earth."

 

NOW, I have a MUCH different view, and I’m no longer locked in to this two-dimensional argument, where at one extreme is the 5-point (TULIP) Calvinist and at the other extreme is the 5-point (DAISY) Arminian. I’ve found the "THIRD dimension," as it were. It’s simple, really, but it was a paradigm shift for me, and I imagine it would be for anyone, and it will be such a shift, should one of you decide to consider seriously what I’m about to say. 

 

“SALVATION” (and it’s grammatical relations, “SAVE,” “SAVED,” “SAVES,” “SAVED,” “SAVING,” etc.) is the WRONG WORD! When one comes to this realization, it makes all the difference in the world.

When the Bible uses the word “salvation,” it is most often referring to the NATIONAL RESCUE or DELIVERANCE of the children of Israel found in prophecy.

An easy way for one to prove this for oneself is to look up Joel 2:32 from which Romans 10:13 was quoted and check out the surrounding context.

So, when one finds the word in Scripture, one must first ask oneself, “How could this be referring to the prophetic, national deliverance of the children of Israel, instead of how I’ve usually heard the word ’salvation’ used?” The allegorical interpretation of the Scriptures (started back in the early centuries A.D.) is largely responsible for the mix-up. Taking these prophecies about the children of Israel and applying them to the “Church,” these allegorizers SEVERELY damaged the interpretation and understanding of Scripture and “messed with the heads” of those early Christians.

 

NOW, keep this SEPARATE from that concept: When the Bible speaks about the need for one to be right with God, the word most often used is JUSTIFICATION, specifically, the justification that GOD applies to an individual apart from any good deeds that he or she may do, not self-justification.

There are two types of people in this world: (1) those who think there’s something good that they can do (or a series of good things they can do) to be in good standing with God, and (2) those who have come to an end of themselves and realize that there is NOTHING they can do to please God. This second group comes humbly to God and pleads for His intervention in their lives. Yeshua` (Jesus) gave this parable:

Luke 18:9-14

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
KJV

We, too, need to be like the publican and humbly come to God, asking for HIS mercy. (Notice, too, that the operative word in this parable is “justified.”)

The prophet Mikhah (Micah) understood humility and told us this within his prophecy:

Micah 6:7-8

7 Will the LORD  e pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
KJV

And, David knew about this concept of God’s justification, as well:

Psalm 32:1-2

1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
KJV

And, Paul quoted this psalm in his epistle to the Romans:

Romans 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
KJV

In fact, Paul went on to note that being justified by faith was NOT something that only belonged to the children of Israel, the circumcised, because it also applied to Avraham BEFORE he was circumcised!

 

Paul said to the believers in Korinth in his second epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 5:1-21:

2 Corinthians 5:1-21

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens (skies).
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven (from the sky):
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked (without a body).
4 For we that are in this tabernacle (tent) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed (made devoid of a body), but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest (down payment) of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ (the Messiah of God); that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ (the Messiah), he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (God, who has exchanged places with us through the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (the service of exchanging places);
19 To wit, that God was in Christ (the Messiah), reconciling the world unto himself (God was in the Messiah exchanging places with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the message about exchanging places).
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead (on the Messiah’s behalf), be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God).
21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (the Messiah).
KJV

THIS is the passage that speaks about the justification of God, not Romans 10!

Finally, this changes things a bit: It’s not “Once saved, always saved” (OSAS), which begs the question, “What does it mean to be saved?” Instead, it’s “once justified by God, always justified by God" (OJBGAJBG?), which makes FAR better sense! It’s not about us; it’s all about HIM! It’s HIS choice to declare us righteous and justified, and in truth, we did NOTHING to become justified by God; so, it is also true that we can do NOTHING to “stay” justified by God!

Edited August 16, 2015 by Retrobyter
To fix “Lord” as “LORD” in the OT