Calvin vs. Arminius

[enoob57]

Larry, in Romans 8:29, it is written that God first foreknew before He predestined. Why do you think that is and how is it that God foreknew?

My take is that God knew exactly who would accept His Son, and those are they whom He predestined.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I hinges on the meaning of FOREKNEW.

If God is basing salvation on what man will do and knowing who it is that will choose Him then God is a respecter of persons because He respects those that are going to choose and rejects those that won't. It is not according to His good pleasure and His choice but on man's choice.

And when Jesus said to the hipocrites, I never knew you, Did He mean He had no recollection of them? I don't think so, God knows everything. When God says He knows someone it is much deeper than just cognition.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

1 Sa 2:30

30 Therefore the Lord God of Israel says: 'I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.

' But now the Lord says: 'Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed

NKJV

All men are lost! Rom 6:23 The simple aspect of salvation is not in the doing but the recognizing outside of being that He 'IS' by the truth

of His Word something that we have have nothing of! By applied faith in believing of Him Whom The Word teaches we see our need...

It is there that the door of salvation is found in Christ for we are reduced to complete nothing and we believe it to be 100% and with that

heart we find true repentance and are made willing to turn from all that we are and begin with Him in a new direction called life (NOT as the

world overwhelmingly seduces us to seek after) but of Him and of where He 'IS' setting up eternity

Isa 45:19

19 I have not spoken in secret,

In a dark place of the earth;

I did not say to the seed of Jacob,

'Seek Me in vain';

I, the Lord, speak righteousness,

I declare things that are right.

NKJV

2 Pe 3:11

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved,

what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct

and godliness

NKJV

God draws to Himself (all people) yet not all go! Therefore those who deem necessary to determine God's Sovereignty through

election not (all people) have but all as to elect have redefined God's specific Word! Sovereignty and freewill are Theological tensions

set by God in his Word to see if you will be obedient to wait upon Him to enlargement so that we may understand with His understanding!

Love, Steven

[Guest surrender2God]

God bless you LadyC for putting the truth of God's word out there.

[larryt]

Larry, in Romans 8:29, it is written that God first foreknew before He predestined. Why do you think that is and how is it that God foreknew?

My take is that God knew exactly who would accept His Son, and those are they whom He predestined.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I hinges on the meaning of FOREKNEW.

If God is basing salvation on what man will do and knowing who it is that will choose Him then God is a respecter of persons because He respects those that are going to choose and rejects those that won't. It is not according to His good pleasure and His choice but on man's choice.

And when Jesus said to the hipocrites, I never knew you, Did He mean He had no recollection of them? I don't think so, God knows everything. When God says He knows someone it is much deeper than just cognition.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

1 Sa 2:30

30 Therefore the Lord God of Israel says: 'I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.

' But now the Lord says: 'Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed

NKJV

All men are lost! Rom 6:23 The simple aspect of salvation is not in the doing but the recognizing outside of being that He 'IS' by the truth

of His Word something that we have have nothing of! By applied faith in believing of Him Whom The Word teaches we see our need...

It is there that the door of salvation is found in Christ for we are reduced to complete nothing and we believe it to be 100% and with that

heart we find true repentance and are made willing to turn from all that we are and begin with Him in a new direction called life (NOT as the

world overwhelmingly seduces us to seek after) but of Him and of where He 'IS' setting up eternity

Isa 45:19

19 I have not spoken in secret,

In a dark place of the earth;

I did not say to the seed of Jacob,

'Seek Me in vain';

I, the Lord, speak righteousness,

I declare things that are right.

NKJV

2 Pe 3:11

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved,

what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct

and godliness

NKJV

God draws to Himself (all people) yet not all go! Therefore those who deem necessary to determine God's Sovereignty through

election not (all people) have but all as to elect have redefined God's specific Word! Sovereignty and freewill are Theological tensions

set by God in his Word to see if you will be obedient to wait upon Him to enlargement so that we may understand with His understanding!

Love, Steven

Hi Steven,

From mans perspective he chooses to submit to the Lord Jesus Christ.

From God's perspective He chooses whom He will and whom He hardens He hardens.

This is a paradox, both are true, that can only be reconciled by knowing/having a relationship with the Lord.

When one gets to the gates of heaven the sign on the outside says: WHOSOEVE WILL

When one passes through and looks back at the gate there is a sign saying: Chosen from before the fundation of the world.

Love, LT

[OneLight]

Larry, in Romans 8:29, it is written that God first foreknew before He predestined. Why do you think that is and how is it that God foreknew?

My take is that God knew exactly who would accept His Son, and those are they whom He predestined.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I hinges on the meaning of FOREKNEW.

If God is basing salvation on what man will do and knowing who it is that will choose Him then God is a respecter of persons becasue He respects those that are going to choose and rejects those that won't. It is not according to His good pleasure and His choice but on man's choice.

And when Jesus said to the hipocrites, I never knew you, Did He mean He had no recollection of them? I don't think so, God knows everythng. When God says He knows someone it is much deeper than just cognition.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Allow people the freedom of choice is not being a respecter pf persons. For God to be a respecter of persons, then He would allow one to be saved and another not to be saved, both following the same path, because He favored/respected one over another.

God allows us to make a choice for or against His Son. It is our choice, not His, and He allows this to be our foundation/stance when standing before Him. Do you believe God can be everywhere at the same time, not being bound by time as we are? This is known as being Omnipresence. God is also Omniscience, knowing all, including what we will choose to believe before He ever created us. Because of these two attributes, God was able to look through time and know what we will choose before we choose. This follows strongly in the concept of Love. If God did not allow us to make our own choices, where would His love for us be? God only accepts true believers, and to be a true believer, we have to make the choice to believe.

[larryt]

Larry, in Romans 8:29, it is written that God first foreknew before He predestined. Why do you think that is and how is it that God foreknew?

My take is that God knew exactly who would accept His Son, and those are they whom He predestined.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I hinges on the meaning of FOREKNEW.

If God is basing salvation on what man will do and knowing who it is that will choose Him then God is a respecter of persons becasue He respects those that are going to choose and rejects those that won't. It is not according to His good pleasure and His choice but on man's choice.

And when Jesus said to the hipocrites, I never knew you, Did He mean He had no recollection of them? I don't think so, God knows everythng. When God says He knows someone it is much deeper than just cognition.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Allow people the freedom of choice is not being a respecter pf persons. For God to be a respecter of persons, then He would allow one to be saved and another not to be saved, both following the same path, because He favored/respected one over another.

God allows us to make a choice for or against His Son. It is our choice, not His, and He allows this to be our foundation/stance when standing before Him. Do you believe God can be everywhere at the same time, not being bound by time as we are? This is known as being Omnipresence. God is also Omniscience, knowing all, including what we will choose to believe before He ever created us. Because of these two attributes, God was able to look through time and know what we will choose before we choose. This follows strongly in the concept of Love. If God did not allow us to make our own choices, where would His love for us be? God only accepts true believers, and to be a true believer, we have to make the choice to believe.

I never said that man does not have the ability to choose. He does have this ablilty. The problem is that man's will is fallen and subject to his corrupt mind. Most people believe man's will is free only because he can choose. In one sense it is free only to do what it will but that is to continually do evil and rebel against God.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And if God chooses those to be saved BECAUSE they will choose, then He is a respecter of persons because God would be saying: I choose you because you are better than the rest because you will choose. Which is not what Rom. 9 says. God chose Jacob over Esau not because of anything that was in either of them, and even before they were even born. God chose to show His sovereignty in election.

Ro 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

So I will pose the analogy again.

How does the dead man choose to live?

[enoob57]

Larry, in Romans 8:29, it is written that God first foreknew before He predestined. Why do you think that is and how is it that God foreknew?

My take is that God knew exactly who would accept His Son, and those are they whom He predestined.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I hinges on the meaning of FOREKNEW.

If God is basing salvation on what man will do and knowing who it is that will choose Him then God is a respecter of persons becasue He respects those that are going to choose and rejects those that won't. It is not according to His good pleasure and His choice but on man's choice.

And when Jesus said to the hipocrites, I never knew you, Did He mean He had no recollection of them? I don't think so, God knows everythng. When God says He knows someone it is much deeper than just cognition.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Allow people the freedom of choice is not being a respecter pf persons. For God to be a respecter of persons, then He would allow one to be saved and another not to be saved, both following the same path, because He favored/respected one over another.

God allows us to make a choice for or against His Son. It is our choice, not His, and He allows this to be our foundation/stance when standing before Him. Do you believe God can be everywhere at the same time, not being bound by time as we are? This is known as being Omnipresence. God is also Omniscience, knowing all, including what we will choose to believe before He ever created us. Because of these two attributes, God was able to look through time and know what we will choose before we choose. This follows strongly in the concept of Love. If God did not allow us to make our own choices, where would His love for us be? God only accepts true believers, and to be a true believer, we have to make the choice to believe.

I never said that man does not have the ability to choose. He does have this ability. The problem is that man's will is fallen and subject to his corrupt mind. Most people believe man's will is free only because he can choose. In one sense it is free only to do what it will but that is to continually do evil and rebel against God.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And if God chooses those to be saved BECAUSE they will choose, then He is a respecter of persons because God would be saying: I choose you because you are better than the rest because you will choose. Which is not what Rom. 9 says. God chose Jacob over Esau not because of anything that was in either of them, and even before they were even born. God chose to show His sovereignty in election.

Ro 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

So I will pose the analogy again.

How does the dead man choose to live?

All of us in Christ knew when we first responded to Him was self based -escape hell type motives... This is the carnal mind when motive is for self gain! However The Spirit-> based on our belief in God through His Word granted us repentance (the first actual look at ourselves as God sees us) and for the first time we saw ourselves as total waste and nothing of value within our own being. As agreeance begins with God's drawing as to nothing redeemable or worth keeping/ yet we come! (note: here is where I believe where passages like Heb 6 fall).... and the step beyond Heb 6 is-> we ask God upon a grace that we had never known before to give to us without being able to supply any return for the gift we were asking for and in this emptiness of death and ultimate humility we ask to Him for the new Life/Birth.... When God says none seeketh I believe this is what He means we all begin seeking in carnal ways but believing in His Word of hell and eternal punishment we wish not to suffer but this is far from the Godly heart He puts within us- one which can desire His Glory and Honor above the self anything... bottom line we come to God believing His Word but with selfish motives in carnal parameters thus we seek other than what God offers therefore none seeketh after God but by belief in Him-> He punctures the darkness with light to our mind and it is here where we extract the fullness of truth of the total unrighteousness of being/some set here a long time as they try to not to throw all of themselves away for they wish to maintain some worth but those who through willing continuation set their minds with His Mind and agree all of what they are is worthy only of His destruction... it is the total emptying and thus God brings a total new being into existence as we now are set in place to the sealing of the Holy Spirit by entering into the new birth for eternity and this is where John says by quiet words these are the ones who remain because they are of us... Love, Steven

[OneLight]

Larry, in Romans 8:29, it is written that God first foreknew before He predestined. Why do you think that is and how is it that God foreknew?

My take is that God knew exactly who would accept His Son, and those are they whom He predestined.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I hinges on the meaning of FOREKNEW.

If God is basing salvation on what man will do and knowing who it is that will choose Him then God is a respecter of persons becasue He respects those that are going to choose and rejects those that won't. It is not according to His good pleasure and His choice but on man's choice.

And when Jesus said to the hipocrites, I never knew you, Did He mean He had no recollection of them? I don't think so, God knows everythng. When God says He knows someone it is much deeper than just cognition.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Allow people the freedom of choice is not being a respecter pf persons. For God to be a respecter of persons, then He would allow one to be saved and another not to be saved, both following the same path, because He favored/respected one over another.

God allows us to make a choice for or against His Son. It is our choice, not His, and He allows this to be our foundation/stance when standing before Him. Do you believe God can be everywhere at the same time, not being bound by time as we are? This is known as being Omnipresence. God is also Omniscience, knowing all, including what we will choose to believe before He ever created us. Because of these two attributes, God was able to look through time and know what we will choose before we choose. This follows strongly in the concept of Love. If God did not allow us to make our own choices, where would His love for us be? God only accepts true believers, and to be a true believer, we have to make the choice to believe.

I never said that man does not have the ability to choose. He does have this ablilty. The problem is that man's will is fallen and subject to his corrupt mind. Most people believe man's will is free only because he can choose. In one sense it is free only to do what it will but that is to continually do evil and rebel against God.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And if God chooses those to be saved BECAUSE they will choose, then He is a respecter of persons because God would be saying: I choose you because you are better than the rest because you will choose. Which is not what Rom. 9 says. God chose Jacob over Esau not because of anything that was in either of them, and even before they were even born. God chose to show His sovereignty in election.

Ro 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

So I will pose the analogy again.

How does the dead man choose to live?

A dead man can choose to live when Life knocks on the door and Life is let in.

You still don't seem to understand how God honors the choices of His creation. He is not "a respecter of man" because He allows people to choose. God has chosen everyone to be saved. How else would you read John 3:16?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It is our choice to believe in His only begotten Son.

[larryt]

So I will pose the analogy again.

How does the dead man choose to live?

A dead man can choose to live when Life knocks on the door and Life is let in.

You still don't seem to understand how God honors the choices of His creation. He is not "a respecter of man" because He allows people to choose. God has chosen everyone to be saved. How else would you read John 3:16?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It is our choice to believe in His only begotten Son.

The dead man will only choose to live when he has been given life. While he is still dead he can do nothing.

The blind man cannot see until he receives sight.

We can only believe when we have been given the faith to believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

As for John 3:16 the word "world" is very interesting. It means different thing depending on the context.

2889 ~kosmov~ kosmos \@kos'-mos\@

probably from the base of 2865; TDNT-3:868,459; n m

AV-world 186, adorning 1; 187

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order,

government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,

'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. #1Pe 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God,

and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages,

pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting,

stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause

of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (#Ro 11:12 etc)

8b) of believers only, #John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47

#1Co 4:9; 2Co 5:19

Since God says He hates some people, Esau, the wicked. He is not going to pour out His wrath on those He loves. Jesus is not going to loose any that the Father gave Him. All His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.

Whoever believes receives everslating life. All His sheep will believe. His people will be willing in the day of His visitation.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

You say I do not understand how God honors the choices of His creation. I do not think you understand the absolute sovereignty of God, or His choices.

Ro 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Did God make you a vessel of mercy or a vessel of wrath? (vs 19)

[His_disciple3]

1 Timothy 2:3-6

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

KJV

Edited August 6, 2012 by His_disciple3

[His_disciple3]

So I will pose the analogy again.

How does the dead man choose to live?

A dead man can choose to live when Life knocks on the door and Life is let in.

You still don't seem to understand how God honors the choices of His creation. He is not "a respecter of man" because He allows people to choose. God has chosen everyone to be saved. How else would you read John 3:16?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It is our choice to believe in His only begotten Son.

The dead man will only choose to live when he has been given life. While he is still dead he can do nothing.

The blind man cannot see until he receives sight.

We can only believe when we have been given the faith to believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

As for John 3:16 the word "world" is very interesting. It means different thing depending on the context.

2889 ~kosmov~ kosmos \@kos'-mos\@

probably from the base of 2865; TDNT-3:868,459; n m

AV-world 186, adorning 1; 187

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order,

government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,

'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. #1Pe 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God,

and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages,

pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting,

stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause

of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (#Ro 11:12 etc)

8b) of believers only, #John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47

#1Co 4:9; 2Co 5:19

Since God says He hates some people, Esau, the wicked. He is not going to pour out His wrath on those He loves. Jesus is not going to loose any that the Father gave Him. All His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.

Whoever believes receives everslating life. All His sheep will believe. His people will be willing in the day of His visitation.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

You say I do not understand how God honors the choices of His creation. I do not think you understand the absolute sovereignty of God, or His choices.

Ro 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Did God make you a vessel of mercy or a vessel of wrath? (vs 19)

your own referenceverese here teaches aginst election, predestination as you and calvinist see it ;look careful this is one lump two vessels from one lump not two individuals but two vesssels one made of flesh one made spirit, the flesh made for dishonour/destruction, the Spirit made for honour, did God make your flesh a vessel of honour?