Calvin vs. Arminius

[enoob57]

The natural man is dead unto God and spiritual things. He is a slave to sin. The devil takes them captive at his will. Except for the general grace of God the natural man is powerless to resist.(Gen 20:6) The natural man is at war with God, is enmity against God. In the flesh there is no good thing nothing that God would even consider saving. It is only His pleasure and His decision that He saves anyone. It is the doctrine of total depravity. Did Adam die spiritually? And what does it mean to be spiritually dead? Some questions you can ponder.

Grace & Peace.

LT

That makes sense. When you view it through the lens of total depravity, then free will is certainly not free. But, I guess I was meant to be a Methodist because Wesley's doctrine that includes Deprivation and restoration through Prevenient Grace has made more sense to me since the first time I ever saw the two doctrines compared. I'm not going to say that it is absolutely correct, but I could not teach or preach using a doctrine that doesn't offer salvation to everyone who is listening. I prefer to speak of a God who "so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Nothing found in an epistle is more important than that.

Salvation is presented to everyone that hears it. And Prevenient Grace has a lot to do with who eventually gets saved. All of grace and nothing of works, nothing of me.

When we get to the gates of Heaven and see the invitation:

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

It is truly whosoever chooses to take of the water of life.

When we pass through and see on the inside of the gate:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Salvation is entirely of the Lord and He will have ALL the Glory.

Grace & Peace

LT

His glory is our glory in Him as our glorying is The Who of Him in the righteous truth... I cannot account the endless ways that He 'IS'

that I glory in as I walk with Him... He draws my heart to be near Him and then draws nearer to my heart thus drawing me even nearer and I cannot

return-> as I remember being what more distant from Him was like! Love, Steven

[His_disciple3]

All of Armenianism puts man before God. With Armenianism, His whole perfect plan of salvation is based on whether man accepts it or rejects it - giving man power and control. Only God is in complete and total control and not hindered by mere man.

God created man in His image and that image is a being with free will. God leaves it up to us to accept or not accept grace. If God is in complete control with no human input, then one of two scenarios are likely:

1) God gives everyone salvation

2) God gives a select few salvation and He decides who is selected

In the first case, there was no need for Christ because God makes his own rules and didn't need Christ to set an example for us to follow.

In the second case, Christianity is a cruel joke for those who were not predestined for salvation. That is, unless all of the people who choose Christ were predestined to choose Christ and then all those who reject grace were obviously not predestined. Again, what is the point of Christ if its all just a facade for predestination?

God lets us choose as part of a refining process. He is bringing us back to paradise and full communion with Him and we need to be perfected first.

Hi Bryan,

You are correct that man was created in the image of God. I put the emphasis on was. What happened in the fall????? The problem I find in free will is no one is willing to define free will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything?

1) God does not give salvation to everyone. That is agreed.

2) This is what the bible describes as election. Those chosen/elected before the foundation of the world.

Who are the elect in the following?

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [it is] God that justifieth.

Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Did God choose to save some even before the foundation of the world?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Grace & Peace

great verses but as scriptures says we must live by every word, and You as a die hard Calvinist have forgotten to include that most important word" FOREKNOWLEDGE"

foreknowledge of the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus and this only is applied to those who call upon the name of the Lord, with a true heart:

1Pe_1:2

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

and are we to believe John Calvin or scriptures on who will be given a change for the Blood to be applied

Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of onethe free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

and Whom did Jesus stand in the gap , the elect? or the whole World?

1Jn 2:1

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2.And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

so let's break this down, By His foreknowledge, not a random pick of you are in or you are out, but By His Knowledge of the Blood and whom receives it. He elects and whom can receive this Blood "All Men(mankind) and the WHOLE WORLD! why would anyone want to preach to turn some away from salvation when it is neither the truth or their job to do so, as calvinist can't give an invitation, seeing they don't know who are called and whom are not! " If I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN unto me" quote JESUS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR FOR THE WHOLE WORLD

Rev 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Edited February 17, 2013 by His_disciple3

[larryt]

All of Armenianism puts man before God. With Armenianism, His whole perfect plan of salvation is based on whether man accepts it or rejects it - giving man power and control. Only God is in complete and total control and not hindered by mere man.

God created man in His image and that image is a being with free will. God leaves it up to us to accept or not accept grace. If God is in complete control with no human input, then one of two scenarios are likely:

1) God gives everyone salvation

2) God gives a select few salvation and He decides who is selected

In the first case, there was no need for Christ because God makes his own rules and didn't need Christ to set an example for us to follow.

In the second case, Christianity is a cruel joke for those who were not predestined for salvation. That is, unless all of the people who choose Christ were predestined to choose Christ and then all those who reject grace were obviously not predestined. Again, what is the point of Christ if its all just a facade for predestination?

God lets us choose as part of a refining process. He is bringing us back to paradise and full communion with Him and we need to be perfected first.

Hi Bryan,

You are correct that man was created in the image of God. I put the emphasis on was. What happened in the fall????? The problem I find in free will is no one is willing to define free will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything?

1) God does not give salvation to everyone. That is agreed.

2) This is what the bible describes as election. Those chosen/elected before the foundation of the world.

Who are the elect in the following?

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [it is] God that justifieth.

Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Did God choose to save some even before the foundation of the world?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Grace & Peace

great verses but as scriptures says we must live by every word, and You as a die hard Calvinist have forgotten to include that most important word" FOREKNOWLEDGE"

foreknowledge of the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus and this only is applied to those who call upon the name of the Lord, with a true heart:

1Pe_1:2

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

and are we to believe John Calvin or scriptures on who will be given a change for the Blood to be applied

Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of onethe free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

and Whom did Jesus stand in the gap , the elect? or the whole World?

1Jn 2:1

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2.And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

so let's break this down, By His foreknowledge, not a random pick of you are in or you are out, but By His Knowledge of the Blood and whom receives it. He elects and whom can receive this Blood "All Men(mankind) and the WHOLE WORLD! why would anyone want to preach to turn some away from salvation when it is neither the truth or their job to do so, as calvinist can't give an invitation, seeing they don't know who are called and whom are not! " If I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN unto me" quote JESUS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR FOR THE WHOLE WORLD

If you want to site where I quoted Calvin please do. I have not quoted Calvin for I do not follow him. The 5 points of Calvinism as I have pointed out before were not coined by Calvin but at the council of Dort in response to the Arminian teaching that was creeping in.

You through out one verse taken out of context of Romans and pick and choose what you will address and what you cannot answer. I have positively stated my possition and I ask that you positively state yours.

Is man totally depraved? If he is not then you need to explain how a spiritually dead man can see spiritually, how a blind man can see, how a spiritually deaf man can hear, the lame walk.

Rev 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

And this verse has been taken out of context more times than I can count.

The invitation is out, those that are thirsty will hear and desire to drink of the Water of Life. Those that are not thirsty WON'T come and drink.

So you have not addressed my question about the will.

What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything?

[His_disciple3]

All of Armenianism puts man before God. With Armenianism, His whole perfect plan of salvation is based on whether man accepts it or rejects it - giving man power and control. Only God is in complete and total control and not hindered by mere man.

God created man in His image and that image is a being with free will. God leaves it up to us to accept or not accept grace. If God is in complete control with no human input, then one of two scenarios are likely:

1) God gives everyone salvation

2) God gives a select few salvation and He decides who is selected

In the first case, there was no need for Christ because God makes his own rules and didn't need Christ to set an example for us to follow.

In the second case, Christianity is a cruel joke for those who were not predestined for salvation. That is, unless all of the people who choose Christ were predestined to choose Christ and then all those who reject grace were obviously not predestined. Again, what is the point of Christ if its all just a facade for predestination?

God lets us choose as part of a refining process. He is bringing us back to paradise and full communion with Him and we need to be perfected first.

Hi Bryan,

You are correct that man was created in the image of God. I put the emphasis on was. What happened in the fall????? The problem I find in free will is no one is willing to define free will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything?

1) God does not give salvation to everyone. That is agreed.

2) This is what the bible describes as election. Those chosen/elected before the foundation of the world.

Who are the elect in the following?

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [it is] God that justifieth.

Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Did God choose to save some even before the foundation of the world?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Grace & Peace

great verses but as scriptures says we must live by every word, and You as a die hard Calvinist have forgotten to include that most important word" FOREKNOWLEDGE"

foreknowledge of the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus and this only is applied to those who call upon the name of the Lord, with a true heart:

1Pe_1:2

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

and are we to believe John Calvin or scriptures on who will be given a change for the Blood to be applied

Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of onethe free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

and Whom did Jesus stand in the gap , the elect? or the whole World?

1Jn 2:1

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2.And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

so let's break this down, By His foreknowledge, not a random pick of you are in or you are out, but By His Knowledge of the Blood and whom receives it. He elects and whom can receive this Blood "All Men(mankind) and the WHOLE WORLD! why would anyone want to preach to turn some away from salvation when it is neither the truth or their job to do so, as calvinist can't give an invitation, seeing they don't know who are called and whom are not! " If I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN unto me" quote JESUS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR FOR THE WHOLE WORLD

If you want to site where I quoted Calvin please do. I have not quoted Calvin for I do not follow him. The 5 points of Calvinism as I have pointed out before were not coined by Calvin but at the council of Dort in response to the Arminian teaching that was creeping in.

You through out one verse taken out of context of Romans and pick and choose what you will address and what you cannot answer. I have positively stated my possition and I ask that you positively state yours.

Is man totally depraved? If he is not then you need to explain how a spiritually dead man can see spiritually, how a blind man can see, how a spiritually deaf man can hear, the lame walk.

Rev 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

And this verse has been taken out of context more times than I can count.

The invitation is out, those that are thirsty will hear and desire to drink of the Water of Life. Those that are not thirsty WON'T come and drink.

So you have not addressed my question about the will.

What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything?

and around and around we go, calvinist or not, a rose by any other name is still a false doctrine, man's free will is to turn from being evil and death and to choose good and life, scriptures says to choose ye this day, our hearts are evil we must have free will to serve God,

God is not an enforcer of His Love, He commends/sends out His love that whosoever, if it seems evil to you to serve God, choose ye whom ye will serve, doesn't say that God forces anyone to love Him, if one can reject the love of Christ, then one can accept the love of Chirst ! my last post, concerning this, let those that have eyes, see and those that have ears, hear!

[Guest]

Anytime One Makes And Takes A List Of His Principles

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9

To Replace (IMO) God's Complete Word

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

There's Bound To Be

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Trouble

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

~

Here, Have A Flower

I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys. Song Of Solomon 2:1

[larryt]

All of Armenianism puts man before God. With Armenianism, His whole perfect plan of salvation is based on whether man accepts it or rejects it - giving man power and control. Only God is in complete and total control and not hindered by mere man.

God created man in His image and that image is a being with free will. God leaves it up to us to accept or not accept grace. If God is in complete control with no human input, then one of two scenarios are likely:

1) God gives everyone salvation

2) God gives a select few salvation and He decides who is selected

In the first case, there was no need for Christ because God makes his own rules and didn't need Christ to set an example for us to follow.

In the second case, Christianity is a cruel joke for those who were not predestined for salvation. That is, unless all of the people who choose Christ were predestined to choose Christ and then all those who reject grace were obviously not predestined. Again, what is the point of Christ if its all just a facade for predestination?

God lets us choose as part of a refining process. He is bringing us back to paradise and full communion with Him and we need to be perfected first.

Hi Bryan,

You are correct that man was created in the image of God. I put the emphasis on was. What happened in the fall????? The problem I find in free will is no one is willing to define free will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything?

1) God does not give salvation to everyone. That is agreed.

2) This is what the bible describes as election. Those chosen/elected before the foundation of the world.

Who are the elect in the following?

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [it is] God that justifieth.

Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Did God choose to save some even before the foundation of the world?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Grace & Peace

great verses but as scriptures says we must live by every word, and You as a die hard Calvinist have forgotten to include that most important word" FOREKNOWLEDGE"

foreknowledge of the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus and this only is applied to those who call upon the name of the Lord, with a true heart:

1Pe_1:2

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

and are we to believe John Calvin or scriptures on who will be given a change for the Blood to be applied

Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of onethe free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

and Whom did Jesus stand in the gap , the elect? or the whole World?

1Jn 2:1

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2.And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

so let's break this down, By His foreknowledge, not a random pick of you are in or you are out, but By His Knowledge of the Blood and whom receives it. He elects and whom can receive this Blood "All Men(mankind) and the WHOLE WORLD! why would anyone want to preach to turn some away from salvation when it is neither the truth or their job to do so, as calvinist can't give an invitation, seeing they don't know who are called and whom are not! " If I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN unto me" quote JESUS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR FOR THE WHOLE WORLD

If you want to site where I quoted Calvin please do. I have not quoted Calvin for I do not follow him. The 5 points of Calvinism as I have pointed out before were not coined by Calvin but at the council of Dort in response to the Arminian teaching that was creeping in.

You through out one verse taken out of context of Romans and pick and choose what you will address and what you cannot answer. I have positively stated my possition and I ask that you positively state yours.

Is man totally depraved? If he is not then you need to explain how a spiritually dead man can see spiritually, how a blind man can see, how a spiritually deaf man can hear, the lame walk.

Rev 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

And this verse has been taken out of context more times than I can count.

The invitation is out, those that are thirsty will hear and desire to drink of the Water of Life. Those that are not thirsty WON'T come and drink.

So you have not addressed my question about the will.

What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything?

and around and around we go, calvinist or not, a rose by any other name is still a false doctrine, man's free will is to turn from being evil and death and to choose good and life, scriptures says to choose ye this day, our hearts are evil we must have free will to serve God,

God is not an enforcer of His Love, He commends/sends out His love that whosoever, if it seems evil to you to serve God, choose ye whom ye will serve, doesn't say that God forces anyone to love Him, if one can reject the love of Christ, then one can accept the love of Chirst ! my last post, concerning this, let those that have eyes, see and those that have ears, hear!

And again I will conceed that man has a will, that he can choose but the will is not free. It is in bondage to the carnal mind that cannot please God. Nowhere in scripture is there any indication that the will of man is free.

And if you cannot debate the issue without labeling me or attacking the messanger you only prove you have no teeth.

Grace and Peace

[OneLight]

Free will is seen as the ability to make choices. If we did not have free will, then none would be saved according to your definitions, for we would never be able to choose a different life than one that we were born into. That is the problem of pure predestination, it removes us as His creation, given the ability to be in His image.

[larryt]

Free will is seen as the ability to make choices. If we did not have free will, then none would be saved according to your definitions, for we would never be able to choose a different life than one that we were born into. That is the problem of pure predestination, it removes us as His creation, given the ability to be in His image.

You are correct that barring the intervention of Jesus Christ, none would be saved. None would seek after God. Man has the ability to make choices but he WILL NOT believe unless he gets a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This is God's prevenient grace.

Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.

Ps 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.

So I guess that you do not believe that the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame, deaf..... Just wounded?

[OneLight]

Free will is seen as the ability to make choices. If we did not have free will, then none would be saved according to your definitions, for we would never be able to choose a different life than one that we were born into. That is the problem of pure predestination, it removes us as His creation, given the ability to be in His image.

You are correct that barring the intervention of Jesus Christ, none would be saved. None would seek after God. Man has the ability to make choices but he WILL NOT believe unless he gets a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This is God's prevenient grace.

Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.

Ps 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.

So I guess that you do not believe that the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame, deaf..... Just wounded?

We cannot and do not receive a heart of flesh until after salvation. Until their sins are forgiven, their heart remain hardened. That is why the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts a person of their sins. They do not come into this knowledge by themselves.

Why would you assume that I do not believe the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame and deaf?

[larryt]

Free will is seen as the ability to make choices. If we did not have free will, then none would be saved according to your definitions, for we would never be able to choose a different life than one that we were born into. That is the problem of pure predestination, it removes us as His creation, given the ability to be in His image.

You are correct that barring the intervention of Jesus Christ, none would be saved. None would seek after God. Man has the ability to make choices but he WILL NOT believe unless he gets a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This is God's prevenient grace.

Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.

Ps 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.

So I guess that you do not believe that the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame, deaf..... Just wounded?

We cannot and do not receive a heart of flesh until after salvation. Until their sins are forgiven, their heart remain hardened. That is why the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts a person of their sins. They do not come into this knowledge by themselves.

This is a point that I disagree with. The doctrine of Total depravity says that man will not submit himself to God and seek salvation. It is totally against the his fallen/carnal nature.

God says that there is none that seek after Him, there are none that understand. You say that there are some that do in fact seek after God on their own and need no help in asking for salvtion.

Why would you assume that I do not believe the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame and deaf?

You just said that man gets the heart of flesh after salvation. So how does a spiritually dead person live unless he is given life? .....the spiritually blind man see unless he is given eyes to see? .... the lame made to walk or the deaf have his ears loosed.

You seem to believe that man is capable of seeking God. God says he isn't. His nature corrupt as it is will not seek after God unless God does something first.

Will Jesus loose any that the Father gave to Him? He said He would not. He is going to make sure that every sheep of His makes it. Those that are not His sheep do not hear His words.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Why do the pharasees not believe?