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Calvin vs. Arminius


Ovedya

What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?  

353 members have voted

  1. 1. What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?

    • 100% Calvinist - TULIP all the way!
      82
    • 60% Calvinist 40% Arminian - Parts of TULIP are too absolute.
      33
    • 50% Calvinist 50% Arminian - Both positions have merit.
      72
    • 60% Arminian 40% Calvinist - Parts of DAISY are too absolute.
      23
    • 100% Arminian - DAISY all the way!
      70


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EricH,

I don't deny predestionation, only differ on the we are.

God Bless,

Artist.

Didn't quite catch what your meaning is here

EricH,

I accept that Predestionation exists, but disagree on the way predestionation takes place, I think the truth lies within the middle somewhere of Calvanism and Arminiuism

7c,

I accept that we have a sin nature, but we also have free will, that is was my point with Adam, nothing more. The quote from Matthew is that Jesus would have saved the Jews if they were willing, he wanted to save them, but they rejected him. John 1 does not disprove free will, it says that salvation cannot be worked out by the will of man, it is totally, wholly a free gift of God.

God Bless,

ArtistforChrist

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Hi Diolectic! With a name like that (assuming it's a reference to "dialectics"), I would have hoped to see a personal rebuttal to Reformed theology and not just a copy/paste job. But anyway... here goes...

Has anyone ever wondered how God could take delite in making people come to Him against their wills, by this so called "regeneration". They are really nothing more than brainwashed. when they come to Him, it is only because they had no choice. When in reality they would realy prefer to continue hating Him.

Emotional appeals... what a pitiful argument. He did get that last sentence right though. All men who are spiritually dead would really prefer to suppress their innate knowledge of God and continue in their rebellion against Him.

When the truth is to be told, they don’t really love Him, because love is dependant on choice. His converts' warm feelings toward Him are in truth, delusions that are not realy their own fealings; they are only God's own fealing for Himself implanted into the one who realy does not want them. This is equal to taking a prisoner, brainwash him or put a spell on him or even fill him with certain drugs that make him pliable, tell him to say, " I love you". Does that give you the same feeling as when your wife or child says it? And why not? Because free will has been eliminated. The priosoner is only saying what you are making him say.

I've discussed this in my previous two posts here... another poor, emotion-driven, unbiblical argument.

Furthermore, why must we preach the gospel in order for people to be saved? If man plays no part at all in his conversion, why must he hear the gospel to be saved?

Two primary reasons: 1) God said so... and 2) God uses preaching as a means for accomplishing His will. This is not a problem at all.

Man plays no part in his regeneration. But everything following that (conversion, justification, etc.) is synergistic. See this discussion (I'm "xapis" on that site): http://www.graceforums.com/topic.php?id=888

Tell me Diolectic, what is the assumed ordo salutis (order of salvation) of your system?

A true Calvinist could never say that persuasive preaching influences the unregenerate person to yield to God, because the unregenerate person will always use his freedom to resist God (Piper, p. 9, prgh. 6).

Amen. But the author you're quoting seems to be having tremendous difficulty distinguishing between the various graces involved in salvation, what they mean, what they imply, and how they come to pass.

Thus the only way an unregenerate person becomes regenerate is if God sovereignly bestows upon him His irresistible grace. So all the persuasive preaching in the world won’t make a bit of difference in the saving of anyone.

Wrong. The author does not understand Reformed theology and, therefore, is unqualified to be publishing writings on the subject. I don't mind someone disagreeing so much if they understand what their disagreeing with and why. I have a problem with someone announcing blanket "anathemas" on something about which he knows very little.

In fact, to even attempt to persuade someone is an attack on God’s supposed sovereign grace in salvation, because to do so implies that salvation rests, in part, on the hearer and also rests, in part, on the preacher.

According to true Calvinists, our preaching cannot have any persuasive power over one who is totally depraved, and if it does, then we must admit that unregenerate man can do something (be persuaded) that leads to his salvation.

If it is true that man’s free will plays no part in his salvation, if man has nothing to do with his repentance because the ability to repent is only God’s gift, then why did Paul often reason with the Jews from the Scriptures to prove that Jesus was the Messiah (e.g., see Acts 17:2-4)? Why did he attempt to “persuade men” (2 Cor. 5:11) and beg people to be “reconciled to God”? Wouldn't that be futile if it is only up to Gods sovereignity to be saved?

Clearly, Paul believed that what he said and did affected the results of his evangelism, because people’s wills played a part in their salvation.

It's called preaching. The author's argument has no base and, as you can now see, is an excursive in futility.

The author is supporting the common error of "decisional regeneration"... see John 3:8 (as well as my previous posts in this thread).

Again, If it is true that man’s free will plays no part in his salvation, if man has nothing to do with his repentance, a preacher’s attempt to persuade an unregenerate man would be an admission that man plays a part in his repentance, and it would be an affront to God’s sovereignty—if no man can be saved apart from God’s irresistible grace. In fact, to try to persuade an unregenerate person to yield to Christ is to mislead him into thinking that he is not so totally depraved after all, because he can choose to repent!

The author apparently believes that man has some measure of sovereignty over God. Is this belief biblical? Can anyone show me anything in Scripture to support such a belief?

If people must hear preaching in order to be saved, then people (and preachers) play a part in their salvation, because preaching persuades them to do something, and thus they must have free wills that can choose to repent. This is just one more proof that salvation is not solely the work of God. Man must play a part, otherwise there would be no need for preaching.

The author is desperately clinging to "free will." In doing so, he seems to lose (at least implicitly) the Creator/creature distinction. God's absolute ultimacy and absolute freedom is part and parcel to His being God. When man attributes ultimacy to man (and he does when he attributes absolute free will to himself), he reduces God and puts himself on a pedestal.

If you care to see a true Christian doctrine of free will and anthropology, I suggest reading these:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_IX.html

http://www.gracegems.org/28/human_nature.htm

Here's what the Bible (quoting the ESV, emphasis mine) says specifically on the subject of man's will and ability:

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." —John 1:12-13

"as it is written: 'None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.'" —Romans 3:10-12

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." —Romans 9:16

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." —Philippians 2:12-13

How much more clear can it be?

Obviously, such a “gospel” leaves nothing for the hearer to cling to in faith. That is why Calvinists keep their unique doctrines secret from the unregenerate, only to reveal them at a later time to Christians when they are ready to receive the “truth.”

Not this one! ...nor any of the devout Calvinists whose works I read and respect greatly.

Truly, the five points of Calvinism are the “family secret.” Even though they are supposedly the foundational truths of salvation, they dare not be revealed to the unsaved.

The author fails to mention that some of the greatest preachers and evangelists in Christian history were Calvinists, such as George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, John Bunyan, John Knox, etc... and John Calvin himself... to those in modern times like D. James Kennedy, R.C. Sproul, John Piper, etc. None of these men were/are ashamed of what they believe! Why not? Because they know they believe what the Bible says and there's nothing there to be ashamed of!

As for this David Servant fellow, hopefully, you now see what a deceiver this man is. I'd never heard of him before and I pray he doesn't confuse too many of God's people with these lies and misconceptions.

Grace & Peace,

Lane

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7c,

I accept that we have a sin nature, but we also have free will, that is was my point with Adam, nothing more. The quote from Matthew is that Jesus would have saved the Jews if they were willing, he wanted to save them, but they rejected him. John 1 does not disprove free will, it says that salvation cannot be worked out by the will of man, it is totally, wholly a free gift of God.

God Bless,

ArtistforChrist

Are our nature and ability the same now (after the fall) as Adam's (before the fall)?

Please read the post and the Scripture passages I just quoted in response to Diolectic on man's will. Then you'll see just how "free" it is.

Grace & Peace,

Lane

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Kjn,

Lucifer was created prefect, God did not create, evil, only the potential for evil, He gave Him FREE WILL, to act or act otherwise, he wanted the angels to CHOOSE to love him, because without choice, love is rendered meaningless. Lucifer decieded he could be better than God, so sinned, so hell was created as a place of quartine Lucifer and his angels on the day of judgement. He gave Adam and Eve the same choice, follow me, or don't they choose to reject God and be there own gods, therefore, anyone on the day of judgement who stands on his own rightousness is justly condemned to Hell.

God could have let every single person go to hell without offering a solution and he still would have been Just. But GOD loved US, DIED for US, so ANYONE willing to bow the knee will be accepted and seen as Holy through the Shed blood of Christ.

My view on election is something like this: Every person has the choice to accept or reject this free gift of grace. God in his Sovernignty looks through the corridors of time so to speak, sees a person and what that person would do given the choice of Salvation. To those who accept this Gift, they are CHOSEN for salvation. Another way is this, the Holy Spirit reveals the Truth to someone and gives them the oppurtinity to accept or decline. Without free will to accept or reject, we would be nothing more than robots or chatty cathy dolls, pull the string we say "I LOVE YOU" God does not want that, we wants us to CHOOSE to love him.

God does not see us as "disposable", but what is he to do when someone willfully rejects God and says "I don't want to have anything to do with YOU!" If he drug that person to heaven against there will, heaven would be hell for that person and true believers would recieve a counterfiet heaven.

Annihaltion doesn't work either because he would be taking a peice of his creation, created in his image, whom he gave the choice of rejecting him, and putting them out of existance.

The Only solution for Sin that is not laid at the foot of the Cross is quartine in Hell. It may be sad, but it is that person's choice and God is simple honoring their choice to be separated from him.

God Bless,

ArtistforHim <><

As created beings, on what basis do we have choice? God, by creating, set us up to do and be whatever it is that we do and are.

And if God only created the potential for evil, then where did evil come from? Is He still not the one responsible for it? Who put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil into the garden?

And IF there is a hell, and if God is the creator and set up 'the way things are", then what keeps a person from concluding that He wanted hell to be? Yes, Jesus warned against it, but hell will be forever. What does warning do if some of your creation still exists there forever?

quote: God does not see us as "disposable", but what is he to do when someone willfully rejects God and says "I don't want to have anything to do with YOU!" If he drug that person to heaven against there will, heaven would be hell for that person and true believers would recieve a counterfiet heaven.

Basically you're either going to exist forever in hell, or you're going to exist forever with the God who set up the way it is, so that there IS hell. And I can't help a reaction that wishes that I didn't exist at all. but my reaction doesn't matter, because that's the way He set it up and that's the way it will be.

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quote: God does not see us as "disposable", but what is he to do when someone willfully rejects God and says "I don't want to have anything to do with YOU!" If he drug that person to heaven against there will

I agree God has given us the freedom of choice ,if we choose to accept salvation then we are chosen if not the we have rejected him not vise versa.

I am daisy all the way

I dont think you understand the biblical explanation of mans depravity. If GOD left it up to us, then NO ONE would choose Him. GOD doesnt make his election based on conditions or what WE do. If GODs choice on us is based on what we choose who then is the sovereign one?

Burn

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I believe the calvinist teaching especially predestination,that God has chose some for heaven and they have no choice and decided to send others to hell giving them no chance.Is the MOST demonic of all doctrines to ever creep into the church.It turns the pure undefiled love of our God into something perverse and sick.

Onwings the last time you wrote something like this I explained that your understanding of the doctrines of grace was not accurate. And what you've been taught IS inaccurate.

Predestination is actually 100% grace, because the Bible teaches that left to himself man would never choose God. If God never worked in our hearts we would all choose the path that leads to death and hell.

Therefore predestination doesn't make God evil, but all the more loving and merciful to those who truly deserve nothing but damnation. By sovereignly and graciously opening our hearts and eyes to the truth, He gives to us the true gift of forgiveness.

Since we all choose to rebel against God, we all sin, and we all fully deserve the wrath of God then if He so chooses to save some, we cannot call that perverse. How could we dare?

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First of all calvinist teach we have no choice, so in your teaching, we choose nothing.2ndly to say Jesus died for the ''elect''only now that is heresy,seeing as you like to call everything heresy smiles,yet you accept the most overt and disgraceful of all heresies.

In teaching that God chooses some to go to heaven and others he send to hell,further more to teach those that he has chosen have no choice and those he sends to hell have no chance,you are calling my God a lair,a rapist,and a murderer.Now that is offencive.

#1 you call him a liar because the bible clearly teaches God is no respecter of men,but you teach he chooses some and not others therefore you he he IS a respecter of men therefore calling him a lair.

#2 you say he forces himself on some against there will, therefore calling him a rapist.

#3 you say he sends some to hell with no chance for salvation,even if they wanted to accept Christ as their Saviour they couldn't,therefore calling him a murderer.

WE all have the same opportunity for salvation as every one else and out of God's own sovereignty he chose to give us choice.We choose whether or not to accept his calling,he calls us all, but forces himself on no one.

Onwings you really need to read when I describe what a belief is. I repeatedly tell you what predestination is and you repeatedly ignore it and keep telling me I am wrong based on your ideas of what it is. In my last post I CLEARLY stated that predestination is not force but is grace because man WILL NOT choose God nor indeed can, ACCORDING to the Bible

Let me repost again:

Onwings the last time you wrote something like this I explained that your understanding of the doctrines of grace was not accurate. And what you've been taught IS inaccurate.

Predestination is actually 100% grace, because the Bible teaches that left to himself man would never choose God. If God never worked in our hearts we would all choose the path that leads to death and hell.

Therefore predestination doesn't make God evil, but all the more loving and merciful to those who truly deserve nothing but damnation. By sovereignly and graciously opening our hearts and eyes to the truth, He gives to us the true gift of forgiveness.

Since we all choose to rebel against God, we all sin, and we all fully deserve the wrath of God then if He so chooses to save some, we cannot call that perverse. How could we dare?

You need to solidly answer this post onwings, not just throw out accusations based on your ideas of what my belief is. Because again, your idea of predestination is totally inaccurate.

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smiles,I do not need you to explain it away I know what is taught by calvinist.

#1 Total depravity.

#2 unconditional election,meaning we have no say ,who he chooses has no choice and who he has not has no chance.Just like I said.

#3 Limited Atonement,Meaning Jesus died for the elect only.Just like I said,it is disgraceful that any one would believe this.

#4 Irresistable Grace,Meaning God forces himself on us against our will,just like I said.

#5 Perseverance of the Saints,basicly OSAS another false doctrine of it's own.

You see I have no need for you to explain why it doesn't really mean these things,I know what they teach and it is absurd,disgraceful and to be honest disgusting.

No you do NOT understand it. You take words and add your own meaning and ideas to them, instead of actually seeing what those beliefs are.

Every ' just like I said it' was WRONG. Excuse me but if you talk to a Mormon about why their beliefs are wrong you don't start from your own ideas about what their teachings mean - you actually KNOW what they teach and therefore you can state FACTUALLY why it is false.

The same applies to my beliefs. I am the one who actually believes this stuff and has studied it, I KNOW what it teaches. But you in your blind refutation of it, refuse to hear what it actually teaches because you have ALREADY decided that it teaches such and such.

That is no refutation of false doctrine, that is simply willful ignorance.

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Butero,

I believe, once a person is saved, he or she will not want to turn away from God. The Bible says that we are new creations, and that the Holy Spirit is a deposit, guaranteeing what it to come, and one of the Epistles ends with "To the one who is able to keep us from falling". We can fall on board, but never overboard. When we sin, the Holy Spirit will convict us so we will repent and be daily changed into the image of Christ. Christ's words on the cross was "It is Finished", so once we accept salvation, our sin debt is "Paid in Full", the literally translation of that phrase. It is what the Romans would stamp on paper stating that a debt was paid off. We owe nothing.

That is why I believe the truth lies in the middle of the two sides, Calvinists see the passages about predestination and eternal security and run one way with it, and Arminiusits see the passages on free will and run the opposite direction.

I believe both sides believe they have the whole truth and are true Christians. This is a secondary Issue, not one essential for salvation. As Long as we all agree that We are sinners in need of Saviour who paid it All, that salvation is based on God's grace and not of Works, along with other essentials, I will gladly call you my Brother or Sister in Christ.

We can debate this, but we don't have to divide over it.

God Bless,

John702

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I know what mormans teach and I know what calivinist teach and you are both equally wrong,yet mormans are considered a cult and calvinist are considered a part of the church,I never could figure that out.

I believe the calvinist teaching to be much worse.

Onwings I don't believe you even read what I write. Else you would have noted that I AGAIN pointed out that you Do Not Know what Calvinism really teaches, but only what you want to believe.

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