Calvin vs. Arminius

[EricH]

Kross the greatest revivalist America has seen is Charles Finney who God used to bring unparralled revival everywhere he preached including the U.K. Also the famous Welsh revival years after his death, has been attributed primarily after God, to 80,000 tracts written by Finney being distributed. Wisdom is known by her children and although Jonathon Edwards and others also saw great revial, Finneys rejection of much of Calvinism gave room for the Holy Spirit to use truth to bring strong conviction and usher in revival.

Many have stated that God used Finney to change the course of American history, yet most Americans are unaware of this. Please dont accuse me of idolising a man, I only speak of Finney to get to the truth by way of researching the doctrines taught and the fruit thereof, and to show your statement that all the great revivals came from Calvinist teaching to be wrong.

Finneys effectiveness as an evangelist is not proof that all of his theology is correct. It simply means that God gave him the gift of evangelism. The accuracy of his theology needs to be measured against Biblical teaching

[Guest Ken Rank]

Basically this is a free will/ pre-destination thing? A debate I actually find both sad and amusing!

See, both sides have backing in scripture... but here is the key. It depends on whose eyes you are looking through, man's or God's.

From God's perspective, he lives outside of the realm of time. Time is a result of what he has created. He is timeless, and knew in the beginning what he will know in the end.... likewise, he will know in the end what he knew in the beginning. He may or may not have created an individual to be "damned," but what is clear is that he knows ahead of time... because he is not OF time... what your choice will be. So from God's perspective, you are predestined.

But from man's point of view, he doesn't know the future. He must live his life making the choices he can based on his discernment. In Deut. we see God saying that he sets before us blessings and cursings, life and death, therefore "CHOOSE life." In the NT, it also becomes clear that we have to CHOOSE whether or not we believe that Jesus is Messiah. Yes, the Father draws us, but it is clear His kingdom will not be made up of mindnumbed robots who had no choice BUT to choose to believe. Rather, a kingdom filled with those who WANT to love him, WANT to walking according to his will. So from man's point of view, there is free will.

So in the end, both exist within scripture and both exist within perfect harmony with one another. Scripture supports both, so both exist.... it just depends on whose eyes you are looking at it from. The sad thing to me personally is the amount of division this debate has caused the body of Messiah over the last few hundred years. It is truly a non-issue and we should set outside our pride to be right... and not divide over it. I imagine God looks down most unfavorably when his people do this! IMHO

Peace.

Ken

Edited September 28, 2009 by Ken Rank

[kross]

If no one can resist Gods will then none would have free will nor would any go to hell, "for God is not willing that any should perish"

Kross the greatest revivalist America has seen is Charles Finney who God used to bring unparralled revival everywhere he preached including the U.K. Also the famous Welsh revival years after his death, has been attributed primarily after God, to 80,000 tracts written by Finney being distributed. Wisdom is known by her children and although Jonathon Edwards and others also saw great revial, Finneys rejection of much of Calvinism gave room for the Holy Spirit to use truth to bring strong conviction and usher in revival.

Many have stated that God used Finney to change the course of American history, yet most Americans are unaware of this. Please dont accuse me of idolising a man, I only speak of Finney to get to the truth by way of researching the doctrines taught and the fruit thereof, and to show your statement that all the great revivals came from Calvinist teaching to be wrong.

Charles and John Wesley were also great revivalist who rejected much of Calvinism.

I am not saying that all of Calvinism is wrong only that where followed in reality leads mostly to fatalism. It is possible of course to believe something but not actually follow it in practice, therefore good can follow from error.

Since the verses in Romans 9 tell us that no one has resisted GOD's will, there might be more to the thought "for GOD is not willing that any should perish" A verse that refers to GOD not wishing that any of the "US" in that scripture (1Peter 3:9) should perish. [that being another conversation]

So, from your statement, you believe that GOD's will can be resisted?

[JCISGD]

If no one can resist Gods will then none would have free will nor would any go to hell, "for God is not willing that any should perish"

Kross the greatest revivalist America has seen is Charles Finney who God used to bring unparralled revival everywhere he preached including the U.K. Also the famous Welsh revival years after his death, has been attributed primarily after God, to 80,000 tracts written by Finney being distributed. Wisdom is known by her children and although Jonathon Edwards and others also saw great revial, Finneys rejection of much of Calvinism gave room for the Holy Spirit to use truth to bring strong conviction and usher in revival.

Many have stated that God used Finney to change the course of American history, yet most Americans are unaware of this. Please dont accuse me of idolising a man, I only speak of Finney to get to the truth by way of researching the doctrines taught and the fruit thereof, and to show your statement that all the great revivals came from Calvinist teaching to be wrong.

Charles and John Wesley were also great revivalist who rejected much of Calvinism.

I am not saying that all of Calvinism is wrong only that where followed in reality leads mostly to fatalism. It is possible of course to believe something but not actually follow it in practice, therefore good can follow from error.

Since the verses in Romans 9 tell us that no one has resisted GOD's will, there might be more to the thought "for GOD is not willing that any should perish" A verse that refers to GOD not wishing that any of the "US" in that scripture (1Peter 3:9) should perish. [that being another conversation]

So, from your statement, you believe that GOD's will can be resisted?

Its impossible to have free will unless it can resist all other wills, but if your talking about God being able to morally persuade anyone whom He wisely sees fit to do so, that a different matter.

I think you are taking Rom 9 out of context as IMO it is speaking theologically and not literally. Paul is repeating what someone else has said, for you will say to me then"for who has resisted the will of God". IMO this not to be taken as Pauls teaching but the complaining of one who is arguing against Gods ways.

What Paul says in reply is "will the thing formed challenge the one who formed it".

Yes God has mercy on whom He wisely chooses, but this does not need to interfere with our will. God only uses moral persuassion, which may involve reward/punishment, but we can still resist and those in hell will be seen to have hardened their own heart and resisted the will of God.

But thats just my opinion.

[JCISGD]

Kross the greatest revivalist America has seen is Charles Finney who God used to bring unparralled revival everywhere he preached including the U.K. Also the famous Welsh revival years after his death, has been attributed primarily after God, to 80,000 tracts written by Finney being distributed. Wisdom is known by her children and although Jonathon Edwards and others also saw great revial, Finneys rejection of much of Calvinism gave room for the Holy Spirit to use truth to bring strong conviction and usher in revival.

Many have stated that God used Finney to change the course of American history, yet most Americans are unaware of this. Please dont accuse me of idolising a man, I only speak of Finney to get to the truth by way of researching the doctrines taught and the fruit thereof, and to show your statement that all the great revivals came from Calvinist teaching to be wrong.

Finneys effectiveness as an evangelist is not proof that all of his theology is correct. It simply means that God gave him the gift of evangelism. The accuracy of his theology needs to be measured against Biblical teaching

Hi Eric i think it does as Wisdom/Holy Spirit dictates that we reap what we sow, and that God show his approval/disproval to either encourage/discourage our efforts. Or else how can anyone know that they are on the right track.

But i have no problem with anyone honestly reading Finney`s Systematic Theology, and then coming back to me if they can refute it. Thats an open challenge to all as Finney was an astute lawyer and all his theology is laid out like a court case to reach a verdict. Im not talking about what people like Hodge etc have written about Finney, or about trumpt up false accusations by some out there, but reading it for yourself. All else is predjudice and sin.

There is a writer who has twisted Finney`s own words to make it sound like Finney was admitting failure and ruin from his own revivals in whats known as the "burnt over district", but when the whole article is read and in context the charge is clearly false and just another example of the strength of mans predjudice against the truth.

[kross]

If no one can resist Gods will then none would have free will nor would any go to hell, "for God is not willing that any should perish"

Kross the greatest revivalist America has seen is Charles Finney who God used to bring unparralled revival everywhere he preached including the U.K. Also the famous Welsh revival years after his death, has been attributed primarily after God, to 80,000 tracts written by Finney being distributed. Wisdom is known by her children and although Jonathon Edwards and others also saw great revial, Finneys rejection of much of Calvinism gave room for the Holy Spirit to use truth to bring strong conviction and usher in revival.

Many have stated that God used Finney to change the course of American history, yet most Americans are unaware of this. Please dont accuse me of idolising a man, I only speak of Finney to get to the truth by way of researching the doctrines taught and the fruit thereof, and to show your statement that all the great revivals came from Calvinist teaching to be wrong.

Charles and John Wesley were also great revivalist who rejected much of Calvinism.

I am not saying that all of Calvinism is wrong only that where followed in reality leads mostly to fatalism. It is possible of course to believe something but not actually follow it in practice, therefore good can follow from error.

Since the verses in Romans 9 tell us that no one has resisted GOD's will, there might be more to the thought "for GOD is not willing that any should perish" A verse that refers to GOD not wishing that any of the "US" in that scripture (1Peter 3:9) should perish. [that being another conversation]

So, from your statement, you believe that GOD's will can be resisted?

Its impossible to have free will unless it can resist all other wills, but if your talking about God being able to morally persuade anyone whom He wisely sees fit to do so, that a different matter.

I think you are taking Rom 9 out of context as IMO it is speaking theologically and not literally. Paul is repeating what someone else has said, for you will say to me then"for who has resisted the will of God". IMO this not to be taken as Pauls teaching but the complaining of one who is arguing against Gods ways.

What Paul says in reply is "will the thing formed challenge the one who formed it".

Yes God has mercy on whom He wisely chooses, but this does not need to interfere with our will. God only uses moral persuassion, which may involve reward/punishment, but we can still resist and those in hell will be seen to have hardened their own heart and resisted the will of God.

But thats just my opinion.

You hang a lot of your arguement on the concept of "free will" and that "Free will" is the end all point of this doctrine. Thus, from what you write, if something violates "Free will" than that is just not acceptable.

A man's will is not "Free" until it is set free by GOD. Until that time, it is captive to Satan, Sin, and The Flesh. While this does not in any way take away from the choices and decissions of a man as being done willfully, and thus a man can be held accountable for his choices, his ability to choose GOD doesn't exist until GOD sets him free, changes his nature, and thus changes his will. Only when this happens does a man get saved and to every person GOD gives faith, by HIS grace, salvation comes. GOD never fails to save one person HE sets out to save. Those GOD does not choose to save, are judged by their choices and actions.

Those GOD chooses to save, are saved by HIS grace, through an imparted faith, that they could not get by any act of work or contrition. Because a man lost in sin is not going to do works or acts of contrition.

Salvation is a good and perfect gift. It is completed from the foundations of the Earth and fullfilled in each of HIS people in the fullness of time. Every good and perfect gift is from GOD.

HIS Peace

[rca]

I really think that most people start from a wrong perspective. So many people think that human beings "deserve" something, or that they should get a "fair" deal. Once one realizes that all anyone deserves is hell, then the loving Almighty and the grace of His plan are revealed. Awesome!

You cannot punish someone for not doing something that they are unable to do. You cannot punish an infant for not driving to the store to buy you a newspaper when he is unable to understand you or do what you tell him to do. Punishing an infant like this with extreme torture is child abuse of the worst kind. If Calvinism is true, God would be like this father. You can only deserve hell if you have the power to choose God and His plan of redemption.

To back this up with Scripture. The true light, which enlightens everyone was coming into the world. (Joh 1:9)

But if I [Jesus] go, I will send Him [Holy Spirit] to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. (Joh 16:7,8)

Romans 1:18-25 states that man is without excuse. The people in hell will have only themselves to blame. They will not be able to blame God for not electing them.

[rca]

The reality is, there is not one person who's deeds are not dark, who will come to the light. GOD doesn't have to do anything in order for a person to not get saved.It is the nature of men, whose bent is to sin and to hate GOD, to not respond to the message of salvation. As scripture clearly teaches, the ground first has to be prepared to recieve the seed. The very first action of salvation is conviction of the need for GOD. That is a work of the HOLY SPIRIT. If the HOLY SPIRIT doesn't convict, people do not get saved.

Regarding first point: And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God. (Joh 3:19-21)

Regarding the second point: And when He [Holy Spirit] comes, He will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness and judgment. (Joh 16:8)

The point being that the whole world gets convicted by the Holy Spirit but only few choose the light and come to God.

[EricH]

I really think that most people start from a wrong perspective. So many people think that human beings "deserve" something, or that they should get a "fair" deal. Once one realizes that all anyone deserves is hell, then the loving Almighty and the grace of His plan are revealed. Awesome!

You cannot punish someone for not doing something that they are unable to do. You cannot punish an infant for not driving to the store to buy you a newspaper when he is unable to understand you or do what you tell him to do. Punishing an infant like this with extreme torture is child abuse of the worst kind. If Calvinism is true, God would be like this father. You can only deserve hell if you have the power to choose God and His plan of redemption.

To back this up with Scripture. The true light, which enlightens everyone was coming into the world. (Joh 1:9)

But if I [Jesus] go, I will send Him [Holy Spirit] to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. (Joh 16:7,8)

Romans 1:18-25 states that man is without excuse. The people in hell will have only themselves to blame. They will not be able to blame God for not electing them.

This is essentially the argument Pelagius made in the early 400's A.D. He said that man could only be held responsible for those things he is able to do. This makes sense from a human perspective, but just does not line up with the testimony of scripture. Scipture affirms in numerous places that we were completely dead in our trespasses and sins and unable to do any spiritual good before God (Ephesians 2;1ff for example). Our responsibility before God is not based on our ability to obey Him. It is based on the absolute perection and rightness of God's character and His morality (moral law). Jesus did not say, Be perfect because you are able to be so!. He said be perfect as your Father is perfect (Matthew 5:5). God has also provided a way (apart from our own abilities) for us to fulfill this law. That is why it is grace. It is not of ourselves (our abilities)

[rca]

You cannot punish someone for not doing something that they are unable to do. You cannot punish an infant for not driving to the store to buy you a newspaper when he is unable to understand you or do what you tell him to do. Punishing an infant like this with extreme torture is child abuse of the worst kind. If Calvinism is true, God would be like this father. You can only deserve hell if you have the power to choose God and His plan of redemption.

To back this up with Scripture. The true light, which enlightens everyone was coming into the world. (Joh 1:9)

But if I [Jesus] go, I will send Him [Holy Spirit] to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. (Joh 16:7,8)

Romans 1:18-25 states that man is without excuse. The people in hell will have only themselves to blame. They will not be able to blame God for not electing them.

This is essentially the argument Pelagius made in the early 400's A.D. He said that man could only be held responsible for those things he is able to do. This makes sense from a human perspective, but just does not line up with the testimony of scripture. Scipture affirms in numerous places that we were completely dead in our trespasses and sins and unable to do any spiritual good before God (Ephesians 2;1ff for example). Our responsibility before God is not based on our ability to obey Him. It is based on the absolute perection and rightness of God's character and His morality (moral law). Jesus did not say, Be perfect because you are able to be so!. He said be perfect as your Father is perfect (Matthew 5:5). God has also provided a way (apart from our own abilities) for us to fulfill this law. That is why it is grace. It is not of ourselves (our abilities)

Nowhere does it say in Scripture that faith is a gift of God. Eph 2:8 says: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. In the Greek "faith" is feminine while "that" is in the neuter. So the gift does not refer to faith but to grace.

Rom 6:23 says: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 3:23-24 says: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 3:26 then says: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Salvation is a gift of God but not faith itself. Eph 2:8 says we are saved by grace (God's part) through faith (our part). Joh 3:16 says that whosoever believes is saved.