Calvin vs. Arminius

[rca]

Here is a closer look at Romans 8:28-30, one of a Calvinist's most important passages.

Romans 8:28 says "And we know that all things work together to those who ..., to those who...". There are 2 "to those who" here. When something is written like this it means that they are connected. There are 2 conditions that have to be met in order to have all things work together for our good.

These conditions are:

1. those who love God.

2. those who are called by God.

And the order of the statements shows that we need to love God first and then in turn God calls us. Or God calls those who love God. Since "according to His purpose" is part of the sentence of verse 28 it belongs better there as opposed to verses 29-30. In light of all this, another way to put verse 28 is "To those who love God all things work together for their good. This is the purpose of God calling the ones who love Him, that all things work together for their good.

"To be called" is one of the verbs in the list of verses 29-30. Paul used the word "called" in verse 28 already. He is expanding the thought of being called by God. That is why he begins verse 29 by saying "For whom". Then he starts in the very beginning from the perspective of God. That is from foreknowing us to glorifying us. In the middle of this is being called by God.

Verse 29 begins with "For whom He foreknew". A Calvinist will say that "foreknew" means that God foreknows them the elect without any foreseen faith of theirs. An Arminian will say that "foreknew" means to know beforehand what we will do and on that basis we are either elected to salvation or not. But what does the Scripture say? The scripture simply says "foreknew". It does not say at all on what basis God foreknows us. But the verse begins with "For whom" which connects it with what was previously said in verse 28. In verse 28 the order is we love God and then God calls us. Verses 29-30 gives more of the detail of God's side of the equation including calling which is mentioned in both verses 28 and the 29-30 list.

Now if you are not convinced that we have to love God first (at least in God's foreknowledge of all of human history) before God calls us or saves us then look at John 14:21-23.

John 14:21 says: "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Here it very plainly says that we need to love God first before He will love us and manifest Himself to us. This same thing is repeated again in 14:23.

John 14:23 says: Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. The order of events is again stated plainly. We love God. God in response loves us. Then the Father and the Son will come to us and make their home with us.

But you may say "Does not the Bible say that God loved us first? In John 15:16 Jesus says "You did not choose Me, but I chose you". Here Jesus is speaking about choosing not loving. He is also talking to the 11 apostles. Judas Iscariot already left.

1 John 4:10 says: In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. This is talking about prevenient grace or God enlightening the whole world as in John 1:9; 16:8-11 and especially John 3:16. God loved us first in enabling all men to be able to believe in Jesus and be saved. But we need to respond to that prevenient grace. If we do then God responds by giving us saving grace.

So God enables the whole world. The world is without excuse (Romans 1:18-21). We need to respond to this love by believing in God. God responds to our response of faith by graciously giving us salvation. All men are able to be saved. But we must make the first step and come to God, believe in Jesus, receive Jesus.

An unbiased study of Romans 8:28-30 makes it clear that we need to love God first. Then God God calls us. God knows all we will do in our future (Psalm 139:1-6). So chronologically God may know us first but God only knows us first because He foresees all we do.

rca

[JCISGD]

Wrong beliefs often come about because of an incorrect assumption or incorrect understanding of the words/phrases being used.

God is sovereign and does know who will be His, but this does not have to mean He controls all events to the point of absurdity. Who does not know that a parent ultimatley remains in control despite a childs rebellion, how much more does God remain in control despite mans rebellions.

"Predestined" cannot mean that we have no choice or do not exert our will, as if so we are merely puppets, and no being that wins by default is ever considered glorious or deserving of glory.

Even worldly movies teach us that love without choice is not valued by both sides. The villan that makes captive his object of love still wants love for him come from free will despite his vain attempts to force love.

Ezk 18:31 says "get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit". This clearly puts the responsibility on us as it goes on to say " for why will you die, O house of Israel". Showing that the outcome is atleast partly dependant on the decision about to be made.

Ezk 36:26 says " I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you" this clearly shows God responding to the heart change previously commanded in Ezk 18:31. Of course God makes the first move but He did this by warning them to change their heart or die, and then moves again in response to our response.

So we can say without God we wont, but without our response neither will God. The same flame that softens the wax hardens the clay. When it says God hardened Pharoahs heart, it might be better understood to say that God came close to him and he responded by hardening his heart towards God.

[JohnOfAlabama]

Raised Arminian, remain Arminian and reject Calvinism outright.

How could God be love if He says He offers everyone but then says, "Psyche! Sorry, I didn't really mean it for you!" How cruel.

God simply knows who will and who won't say yes and He's determined ahead of time to help those who say yes to make it to the end.

Like my Mom putting before me a plate of turnip greens and a bowl of chocolate pudding and saying, Pick. She already knows I'm going straight for the pudding. She didn't make me, she just knew because she knows me. God knows the future. He already knows who will be in heaven. Therefore He is called "I AM". He is now creating the world. He is now rescuing Israel from Egypt. He is now on the cross, rising from the dead, with us. He is now coming back. He is now with us a trillion years into eternity. He is - at all points in time, before time, after time. Therefore He knows all things. He knows who will and who won't say yes. If He truly is Love - and He is - then He would not tell me, Come, but then have already decided my fate for me. That is twisted and I think blasphemous.

The ability of people to decide is important. He wants us to love Him as a choice, not as robots. He wants us to obey because we see how it thrills Him for us to want to be like Him. He wants someone to love Him. Robots and animals aren't given that choice.

Edited October 22, 2010 by JohnOfAlabama

[j102]

"IT USALLY TAKES A GOOD THEOLOGIN TO MAKE WHAT GOD IS SAYING CONFUSING"

[Guest]

"IT USUALLY TAKES A GOOD THEOLOGIAN TO MAKE WHAT GOD IS SAYING CONFUSING"

:24:

[JohnOfAlabama]

I define "free will" not as "the right to choose" but as "the ability to choose." He did not give us the right to choose evil, but we do have the ability, as we all have exercised said ability. But since it is not a right to choose evil, it is called rebellion and sin. God wants us to choose to do right because it is good and right. He's looking, not for robots, but for those who choose willingly to believe and follow and do that which is perfect - to be like Him by choice. I find any theology that says the responsibilty is God's and God's alone to save us to be - how to say this? - the lazy soul's excuse for disobedience / disbelief and also that same soul's feeble accusation on judgment day against God for why said soul is standing on Christ's left. Note that the devil is called the accuser. So we can see clearly the devilish nature of any argument against God by a soul who finds itself on Christ's left - as though God made some mistake. We know that God makes no mistakes - ever. It then becomes clear to me that the responsibility lies with people to exercise their ability to choose the good and the right - to believe it and to do it.

[Fez]

Here we go again.....

[JCISGD]

Lol Fez that about sizes it up.

I think Jake wins.

I could never entertain a theology that produced a man like Calvin. "You shall know them by their fruits"

http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/servetus.html

[Guest yod]

I would vote both if there were that option. The question of "who chooses whom first?" seem premature until we establish what they are being chosen for? Salvation comes in many forms.

God has created and put into place every blade of grass for a specific purpose according to the laws He has established for His created things. He creates an atmosphere or situation where water and light and seeds and soil all come together. Altering any of those elements will produce different kinds of fruit but kind begets kind which then grows up with a different environment usually, even if in the same place.

Some places are harder to grow in than others, but the testing of various conditions make the tree grow tougher and stronger.

so why wouldn't He choose every person for something, even if they refuse to acknowledge Him?

He has provided everyone an environment to prosper and grow in the knowledge and wisdom of Him who gives freely for the asking. He then lets us choose only whether to trust Him or not. Abraham trusted God and it was counted unto Him as righteousness. This is the first way of salvation and there is no other.

The moment of "strong trust" is the point of entry for the salvation of our soul and according to the Word, He has chosen to give every man a measure of faith already. But the condition of that "strong trust" will constantly be tested when water and light and seeds and soil all come together. What we do with that measure of faith and whether we pass or fail the testing is our choice. The testing of our faith either produces greater fruit or exposes tares among wheat. He chooses to bless those who put their "strong trust" in Him with salvation.

In many forms.

[Fez]

The moment of trust is the point of entry for the salvation of our soul....but that trust will always be tested. Whether we pass or fail the testing is our choice. The testing of our faith either produces greater fruit or exposes tares among wheat. He chooses to bless those who put their strong trust in Him.

Amen.

That about sums it up, and is all we really have to concern ourselves with