Coming for the saints

[OneLight]

Where is the scripture to back this theory up? I do not believe this to be so, the bible doesn't say that the 144,000 will be preaching to Jews only. I do believe they are preaching in Jerusalem and the surrounding areas. We must remember that there are the two witnesses that are out in the outer court prophesying to the Gentile nations aswell.

Check my answer in post #6. As you get to know me, you will notice that I will often use the words "I believe", which is different then saying "the Scripture says." I am talking about how I believe.

Allow me to ask this. How is the whole world going to see the Two Witnesses who have been killed, lying in the street?

revelation 11:9

Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.

OneLight

Hi OneLight,

I don't think you realize I was actually answering what Massorite @ Dec 16 2007, 02:28 PM) had said in your earlier post. I believe what you are saying, I know with technology today the world is able to see things all over the world even under the sea. God Bless

Thanks Isa! When a name is not addressed, I answer as if it was directed to me. Sorry.

Sometimes, we as Christians stand so firm on the Word of God that we stop thinking outside of the Bible. I am just as guilty as others when it comes to this, and I was not pointing a finger at anyone in particular, except myself from time top time.

Your Brother In Christ,

OneLight

[Isa]

Where is the scripture to back this theory up? I do not believe this to be so, the bible doesn't say that the 144,000 will be preaching to Jews only. I do believe they are preaching in Jerusalem and the surrounding areas. We must remember that there are the two witnesses that are out in the outer court prophesying to the Gentile nations aswell.

Check my answer in post #6. As you get to know me, you will notice that I will often use the words "I believe", which is different then saying "the Scripture says." I am talking about how I believe.

Allow me to ask this. How is the whole world going to see the Two Witnesses who have been killed, lying in the street?

revelation 11:9

Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.

OneLight

Hi OneLight,

I don't think you realize I was actually answering what Massorite @ Dec 16 2007, 02:28 PM) had said in your earlier post. I believe what you are saying, I know with technology today the world is able to see things all over the world even under the sea. God Bless

Thanks Isa! When a name is not addressed, I answer as if it was directed to me. Sorry.

Sometimes, we as Christians stand so firm on the Word of God that we stop thinking outside of the Bible. I am just as guilty as others when it comes to this, and I was not pointing a finger at anyone in particular, except myself from time top time.

Your Brother In Christ,

OneLight

Hi OneLight,

No offence was taken, I to am quilty of not thinking outside the bible. I get so wrapped up and involved with God's word that I tend to forget the real world sometimes. As Christians we need to stand firm on the word of God otherwise our boats will sink. May we always continue to walk in the light of is word.

God Bless

[Massorite]

But doesn't the Apostle Paul assure us in Romans 5:9 that we're "saved FROM the wrath thru Him" and not just "IN the wrath thru Him"? The meaning is quite significant. And wouldn't 1 Thess. 5:9 which states, "God has NOT appointed US to wrath" tend to indicate that the coming Tribulation will be the portion of the UNbeliever and definitely not the believer? Why would the Lord save us from wrath thru His precious blood, then take us thru wrath even though we've already been delivered from it? My future in Christ Jesus is not earthly judgment alongside unsaved individuals but heavenly blessing with the redeemed throngs! Hallelujah & Amen!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

Yes he does. But what does the wrath of God look like? What does the word of God say His wrath is?

For nearly 250 years the early church suffered great persecution. They were fed to wild animals, boiled in oil alive, they were skinned alive, they had their heads cut off, they were drawn and quartered, thrown into jail and tortured, disfigured and the list goes on and on. We are talking about believers who were born again and baptized who were persecuted for no other reason then the fact that they would not bow down to pagan Rome and worship excepted Roman gods and practice pagan ritual. Did the believers of the early church suffer great tribulation or did they suffer the wrath of God?

Now let us think about this.

Wasn't it Paul who held the coats of those who gnashed their teeth on and stoned Steven to death? Wasn't it Paul who was given authority to execute, torture, put into jail and persecute those who believed in Christ?

Yes it was! And when Jesus knocked him off of his horse what did Jesus say to him? He said "Why are you persecuting Me"?. So according to Jesus, by persecuting those who believed in Jesus, Paul was persecuting Jesus. Was Jesus suffering the wrath of God or was He suffering great tribulation from Paul?

So if the Christians who suffered because of Paul were suffering the wrath of God, how then could Paul tell them that they are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God when before he was converted Paul was the instrument by which they suffered the wrath of God? That is if it was the wrath of God that they were suffering at the hands of Paul. Think about it. Paul with the blessing of both the Roman government and the Sanhedrin traveled around executing, torturing, and putting Christians into jail.

My point is this. The wrath of God is not the same thing as great tribulation or tribulation of any kind.

Now let us consider this. To day there are believers who are being tortured, having their heads cut off, being held over an open flame in an effort to forcibly make them renounce Christ and convert over to Islam, they are being burnt alive, young women and girls are having acid thrown into their faces and being horribly disfigured and hundreds of thousands are being thrown into jail all because they believe in Christ as Lord of all. Are these Christians suffering the wrath of God or are they. suffering great tribulation?

The great tribulation the bible talks about which is to come in the future is not the wrath of God. It is just what the word of God says it is. It is great tribulation. When the wrath of God and the wrath of the Lamb comes to earth we will not be here but we will be here for a period of great tribulation.

Why is it that we some how think that we are above those who are dieing daily as we speak for believing in the name of Christ.

If you want proof of what Christians are suffering all you have to do is go to the web site of The Voice of the Martyrs.

[Yahsway]

Massorite, Love your post and agree with you.

The beginning of the church grew during much tribulation and I personally believe it will grow more durng the end of this age and the great tribulation to come.

John saw a number that "no man could number" and the angel told him that these were those who come out of the Great trib. So does one think that they are suffering Gods wrath or Satans tribulation/persecution?

I agree with the late Corrie Ten Boom when she said that the Rapture theory is mainly a western idea.

I believe the Church will be refined in the fire. The church will also be tested. Its true that we are not appointed to Gods wrath, our appointment with Him is different. That said though, we may have to go thru the tribulaton.

God protected the Children of Israel while they were in Egypt while Egypt was experiencing Gods wrath and then God led the Children of Israel out of Egypt.

I believe the Tribulation and the Wrath of God are 2 seperate things.

[Isa]

But doesn't the Apostle Paul assure us in Romans 5:9 that we're "saved FROM the wrath thru Him" and not just "IN the wrath thru Him"? The meaning is quite significant. And wouldn't 1 Thess. 5:9 which states, "God has NOT appointed US to wrath" tend to indicate that the coming Tribulation will be the portion of the UNbeliever and definitely not the believer? Why would the Lord save us from wrath thru His precious blood, then take us thru wrath even though we've already been delivered from it? My future in Christ Jesus is not earthly judgment alongside unsaved individuals but heavenly blessing with the redeemed throngs! Hallelujah & Amen!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

#1 kept from wrath and translated to heaven b4 the trib are two very,very different things.

#2 why would you believe the tribulation period to be the wrath,the wrath could be.

A.The tribulation.

B.The firey destruction of the wicked at the post trib 2nd coming.

C.Hell.

D.The lake of fire.

E.separation from God.

Personally I believe through scripture that the wrath is ''B''the firey destruction of the wicked at the 2nd coming.

But for you to cause 1st thess 5:9 to say there is a pretrib rapture 1st you must prove scripturally that the wrath is the tribulation and 2ndly that the way we are kept from it is through the rapture.

Neither one of these can be shown in scripture as fact or truth.

Therefore 1st thess 5:9 means that we will be kept from the wrath not that we are going to be raptured b4 the tribulation.

How many times do you have to be shown that God's wrath is poured out in the seven seals, seven trumpet and seven bowl judgments. It is angels, God's angels that deliver this wrath upon the earth therefore it is God's wrath poured out on wicked man. It is plain and simple really but you are confusing the matter only for yourself.

God Bless

The fact is the bible does not teach pretrib rapture and if the bible does not teach it we should not be either.

The bible does teach a catching away of the saints so this iswhat has to be preached.

Just as Jesus was caught up and received in the clouds so we shall be caught up into the clouds to meet Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

It is an undeniable truth that we are caugth up to meet the Lord in the air, and this is done not by angels but by the Lord Himself. He will call us to Him with the voice of an arch angel and the trumpet of God.

Matthew 24:30-32

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In the verse above it is a totally different collection of souls. This gathering the Son of Man is collecting the elect and the wicked, the sheep and the goats. He comes as judge at the end of the tribulation, but before the seven year tribulation He comes as Lord and Saviour to His church.

[Arthur Durnan]

Okay, alright, I get it now: First our Blessed Lord & Savior wonderfully SAVES us from Hell thru His precious shed blood, then He turns around & SENTENCES His dearly beloved ones, His very own children, to a heinous HELL on earth replete with the 7 Seals, the 7 Trumpets & the 7 Bowls of His Wrath! I thot that when He saved us, He made us "ACCEPTED in the beloved....SEALED us until the day of redemption....and made us to SIT IN THE HEAVENS with Himself"!! Maybe not now? Maybe the fact that "He will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" will include unimagineable world conflagration for His "saved, sealed & serving" twice-born children! Hmm. Now, with a future divine judgment before us -even though He has guaranteed DELIVERANCE from all future wrath of God - perhaps the HELL He saved us FROM wasn't all that complete!! Perhaps there WILL be horrible CONFLICT in Paradise where the dying thief headed. Perhaps then, He might also consider giving us a personal 'Victory Tour' of Gehenna itself after the Marriage Supper? Fantastic & grotesque beyond words. Methinks somebody somewhere in the camp of Wrath No. 2 rides again & falls off! Pray tell, why head east to see a sunset?

Thank You, Lord Jesus, for completely delivering us from the wrath to come!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Isa]

I can not for the life of me understand how spirit filled true christians can continue to believe in the pretrib rapture when scripture undeniably disproves it.

You can show some one scripture after scripture and in Isa's case they even quote scripture that disproves the pretrib rapture yet continue to accept it,even promote it.

This is beyond my ability to comprehend,to be honest I find it some what disgraceful.

You do realize that you just called the world's largest Christian denomination disgraceful, right? Your inability to comprehend the thing may not be a railing judgment against anyone other than yourself. I would like to suggest that you take a deep breath, apologize to the majority of Christianity and then try to understand the things you've missed up until this point. The subject of love should be at the top of that list.

Tehilah called it like it is oChristiansnmings. Just because it is the worlds largest Christian denomination doesn't mean that they are right. The whole world thought the world was flat until one man made a big deal about it, said they were wrong and proved it. It goes along with what I tell people. We shouldn't even take any preachers word for it. We should always research what our preachers say about scripture because they make mistakes and they can be wrong.An example of this is how all of these high profile preachers are wrong about the pre-trib concept. Benny Hinn, John Hagee, Charles Stanley, Morris Cirillo, J. R Church, Jack Van Impy and many more are pre-tribers and they are teaching the false doctrine of escapism pre-trib concept.

By the way they are not the worlds largest Christian denomination. The Catholicism is the largest Christian denomination and they are wrong about allot more then just the pre-trib concept.

It goes along with what I tell people. We shouldn't even take any preachers word for it. We should always research what our preachers say about scripture because they make mistakes and they can be wrong.An example of this is how all of these high profile preachers are wrong about the pre-trib concept.

Just quoting what Massorite said.

My church has never preached about the rapture,I have never been to a church that has preached about the rapture. It is the Lord who has shown me what I know I have listened to some tapes of a man named John MacArthur, and I always check to see what this person is speaking about is what the Bible is saying if it is not I disregard what is said and search it out for myself. I never read books they give me headaches, I only read the word of God. I am not saying it is wrong to read what others say sometimes they can help to lead you in the right direction or give you an understanding of what is being said. But I feel to understand the Bible God is our best source to go to, He says He who lakes wisdom ask and it shall be given.

I believe God teaches of a catching away of the saints and of them returning with His beloved Son our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 3:13 Rev 19:7,8,11-16 Many verses can prove of this aspect but people just want to stay blind. That is their choice, it is not a salvation issue anyway. But it gives one peace of mind and it encourages us to tell the world that there is salvation from their sins and there is a better hope for us.

They have the choice to be saved now or to go through the tribulation that comes on the world. They only need to make one choice for the other choice has already been made for them. They can continue in their sin and suffer the wrath of God Revelation 3:10, Revelation 6 - Revelation 20 or they can be saved from that now by confessing their sin before God Romans 10:8-10and believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. Believe that He is Lord of all Romans 14:10-12 then you shall be saved this is the only choice you need to make.

Choice 1 Salvation through Jesus Christ

Choice already made if one stays in their sins - the wrath of God as mentioned above.

God Bless

[Fraught]

But doesn't the Apostle Paul assure us in Romans 5:9 that we're "saved FROM the wrath thru Him" and not just "IN the wrath thru Him"? The meaning is quite significant. And wouldn't 1 Thess. 5:9 which states, "God has NOT appointed US to wrath" tend to indicate that the coming Tribulation will be the portion of the UNbeliever and definitely not the believer? Why would the Lord save us from wrath thru His precious blood, then take us thru wrath even though we've already been delivered from it? My future in Christ Jesus is not earthly judgment alongside unsaved individuals but heavenly blessing with the redeemed throngs! Hallelujah & Amen!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

come on now. wrath, tribulation, suffering . . . it's all going on now in the world. or do you expect you present life be free from all difficulty because you want to term it judgment?? i don't understand this viewpoint, i guess.

[Isa]

But doesn't the Apostle Paul assure us in Romans 5:9 that we're "saved FROM the wrath thru Him" and not just "IN the wrath thru Him"? The meaning is quite significant. And wouldn't 1 Thess. 5:9 which states, "God has NOT appointed US to wrath" tend to indicate that the coming Tribulation will be the portion of the UNbeliever and definitely not the believer? Why would the Lord save us from wrath thru His precious blood, then take us thru wrath even though we've already been delivered from it? My future in Christ Jesus is not earthly judgment alongside unsaved individuals but heavenly blessing with the redeemed throngs! Hallelujah & Amen!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

#1 kept from wrath and translated to heaven b4 the trib are two very,very different things.

#2 why would you believe the tribulation period to be the wrath,the wrath could be.

A.The tribulation.

B.The firey destruction of the wicked at the post trib 2nd coming.

C.Hell.

D.The lake of fire.

E.separation from God.

Personally I believe through scripture that the wrath is ''B''the firey destruction of the wicked at the 2nd coming.

But for you to cause 1st thess 5:9 to say there is a pretrib rapture 1st you must prove scripturally that the wrath is the tribulation and 2ndly that the way we are kept from it is through the rapture.

Neither one of these can be shown in scripture as fact or truth.

Therefore 1st thess 5:9 means that we will be kept from the wrath not that we are going to be raptured b4 the tribulation.

How many times do you have to be shown that God's wrath is poured out in the seven seals, seven trumpet and seven bowl judgments. It is angels, God's angels that deliver this wrath upon the earth therefore it is God's wrath poured out on wicked man. It is plain and simple really but you are confusing the matter only for yourself.

God Bless

The fact is the bible does not teach pretrib rapture and if the bible does not teach it we should not be either.

The bible does teach a catching away of the saints so this iswhat has to be preached.

Just as Jesus was caught up and received in the clouds so we shall be caught up into the clouds to meet Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

It is an undeniable truth that we are caugth up to meet the Lord in the air, and this is done not by angels but by the Lord Himself. He will call us to Him with the voice of an arch angel and the trumpet of God.

Matthew 24:30-32

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In the verse above it is a totally different collection of souls. This gathering the Son of Man is collecting the elect and the wicked, the sheep and the goats. He comes as judge at the end of the tribulation, but before the seven year tribulation He comes as Lord and Saviour to His church.

I did not say there was no catching away of the saint,I said the bible does not teach a ''pretrib''catching away,which it does not.

I notice you left out matt 24:29,for good reason,when trying to prove your point,and these are the same gathering of saints you just refuse to accept the truth.

Hi Onwingsaseagles,

I did not leave Matthew 24:29 out for any reason so I will post it here for you if it makes you feel better.

Matthew 24:29-32

29

Edited December 20, 2007 by Isa

[Isa]

But doesn't the Apostle Paul assure us in Romans 5:9 that we're "saved FROM the wrath thru Him" and not just "IN the wrath thru Him"? The meaning is quite significant. And wouldn't 1 Thess. 5:9 which states, "God has NOT appointed US to wrath" tend to indicate that the coming Tribulation will be the portion of the UNbeliever and definitely not the believer? Why would the Lord save us from wrath thru His precious blood, then take us thru wrath even though we've already been delivered from it? My future in Christ Jesus is not earthly judgment alongside unsaved individuals but heavenly blessing with the redeemed throngs! Hallelujah & Amen!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

come on now. wrath, tribulation, suffering . . . it's all going on now in the world. or do you expect you present life be free from all difficulty because you want to term it judgment?? i don't understand this viewpoint, i guess.

We may go through tribulations and sufferings in this life, but they are nothing compared to what is about to come on unbelievers for God's wrath is going to be dished out on them not believers.