Do We REALLY Believe?

[Vickilynn]

Peace to you Vickilynn,

I thank you for your reply and advice.

Shalom Dennis,

You can always count on me for both! And I appreciate your grace in these discussions, even if we don't agree!

Suzanne can obviously speak for herself as well as I can speak to support her if I wish, especially when others gang up on her.

I don't see anyone "ganging" up on her as much as doing what she asked...replying to her questions and offering their Biblical viewpoint concerning the OP. Those are valid.

I replied to the issue that many raised about the trap as did the OP. It is appropriate to comment on what people say in their replies.

When it becomes of the new focus of the thread, it is called "de-railing" the thread and then becomes counterproductive. That's why people keep asking posters to stay on topic.

The thread is nothingness as Eric said because if we are Christians, we BELIEVE Scripture. Duh.

Duh, I wish that were true. All one has to do is look at any topic here and see that many don't believe many Scriptures. Many think that one Scripture negates or makes of none effect another Scripture. That is selective belief, incomplete belief, directly related to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are well aware of this when you deal with the issue of the Sabbath. The majority do not believe the Scriptures that speak of God's Holy Sabbath Day. Thus they do not believe all of Scripture.

Relating it to THIS TOPIC, the OP asks if we believe Scripture and then posts Scripture out of context with no explanation of her point, interpretation or whatever and asks for replies. Well, the reply is that Scripture is Scripture and it's G-d's Word. However, the problem comes in with MAN'S INTERPRETATION of what that Scriptures means and how to apply it.

When we have people disagreeing over those interpretations, we get people accusing one another of not "believing the Scriptures" That is what this OP is set up for, and why it is a trap.

This is what discussion is all about, to look at the Scripture and the context and any related Scriptures which is what some did, I mention Cardcaptor for one. You are free to bring up whatever context you wish, that would definitely be on topic. What is really disturbing is when people think that they can direct others in how and what to post and then question their integrity and motivation in doing so. That is not their job.

Neither is it the job if the OP to imply that if a Christian does not agree with HER interpretation of Scripture, that Christian doesn't BELIEVE Scripture. That is the trap, that is the wrong of this thread as has been pointed out by two Moderators.

Again thanks for the advice and I hope there is no bad feeling if I have a little different perspective than you.

No hard feelings, I can assure you! I don't mind differing views as long as there is no judgment and condemnation for differing views. This is why I am speaking out against this thread as well as some others. Not the differing views but the calling of "Sin, sin, sin" and accusing of not believing Scripture, not understanding Scripture, promoting false doctrine, sending people to Hell (yada yada yada) if we don't agree with the premise or the interpretation of the OP.

THAT is the sin.

[damo1]

damo1

to pilgram 7

i read your post you left for me brother and yes i have been offended one i am of the streets brother i have no parents my home was a run down old building in kings cross i slept on the second floor with 15 other street kids i slept on a soaked carpet that smelt of urine and i used a dirty old carpet to keep me warm threw our australian winters i also ate out of the bins and i use to get fresh food that was dumped in the big dumpsters in two of the main supper markets

i slept in the same clothes i could not afford to have clean clothes and when i was searching i had the door slammed on my face and told people like your self are not welcome i am also from a war torn country brother were my own people have been killed my brother vladko is a soldier in the croation army and he has seen plenty of his friends die in front of him by the hands of the serbians

so when you decided to fend tsth hear i decided enough is enough ever since god shook me up brother i have had well of and educated christians tell me to my face that men like your self should not be in gods house or stating that jesus is lord over your life i have had to fight brother for everything i have now and i still run into christians who love to prove a point and only say jesus died for one group of people and guys like your self wil never step foot into heaven or understand what christ really said in all the gospels

i have had to even prove that i am a christian i have tattoos brother my grammer is not that crash hot my educataion was not that good i had to leave school and concentrate on surviving my sister was taken in by my mothers parents but becaus i am a male i was told males know how to loook after them selves

while my sister had warm meals a nice bed to sleep in clean clothes and a roof over her head and a good education to were she serves in the army hear i am dealing in drugs braking into houses working in strip clubs were women were bought from other coutrys and i had to look after these women and put my human side to the side and ignore what was being done to these russian women and asian women which got to the point were i bashed one pimp up just to teach him a lesson this is the man i was i even shot up herroin and speed just to escape the pain i sufferd at home as i was told by my old man i am not his son

i lived in and out of goverment youth refuges i stayed also in sevral mens hostels i had a father who was very violent toward me and my mother and my sister

i have been on my own since i was 14yrs old i am 40yrs old i have served also twice for the crimes i did in our harshest jails at the age of 18 it was gods holy spirit that convicted me

were i ran from god since i was 18 not once has he given up on me also my first marragie brother was brokken appart by a pastor who i trusted when i cried out for help and said i was being violent towards my wife and towards my son i was shown the front door my wife was told to leave me

yet i also bought this on my own head as i new what the bible said but i found it hard to let go off my past or those i use to work for in kings cross i worked for the criminals who ran the strip clubs my very best friend who was a stripper was killed by one of the pimps who ran and has never been found as i was looking for him with sevral other bosses who my friend worked for as a prostitute

i am about to be living in a country were christians are hatted my partner is a filapino pastor and she is constantly putting her own life in danger but god has had his hands on her and he has prottected her

as i said when you decided to jump the gun and deffend the op i thought hear we go again why am i having to prove that i believe why is this topic always comming up were people have nothing better to do than force christians like my self to prove them selves

i respond to this post in honesty and its like people cant handle the naked truth

that is why i said to you i do not worship one translation over antother translation when god shook me up in 2001 i came very close to killing a drug dealer and i am glad god shook me up as i can honestly say today i would be serving time for murder if it was not for god shakking me up and my old pastor and the people in my old church praying which i did not know as i was very angry at him for telling me to my face i am an evil man who will never be forgiven

i have learnt not to back down or sit in silence when it comes to topics like this i am going to be away for two weeks in the phillippines on this date 20th jan but i can check my in comming emails and log into worthy at the inter net caffe in the phillippines

i also have two young friends who are pastors and are serving god were the harshest fighting has been happening in the phillippines

when my partner asked me if i was happy to live with her in her country and help her pastor a new church that they have just planted i told her i will need time to think as i have a 11yr old boy and i am going to need to tell my son that dad will be living in the phillippines i have heard how sevral christians have been killed by the muslims who want one part of the island as an islamic state

and hear i am being called to serve god in a country that has sufferd and were christian females have been raped and pastors have been killed i am at peace as i could not sleep i lifted this before god and i rang my partner back and said to her i will be very happy to serve by her side and help her pastor the new church and i wil be happy to live with her in her country

this is just showing you that i do not give lip service or do i hide behind scripture passages as i said i am a very simple man my friend who encounterd god in a power full way

i am also going back to the church that shut the door on my face i have also forgiven my old pastor and me and my x wife are also very close friends she has forgiven me i have forgiven her

how much more proof do you want brother when a question is asked people should not be questioned weather they believe in the scripture passages tsth left that is why i said we should talk on the doctrines that we have allowed our selves to belive in and then we can get to the core of this topic do we really belive

i am also a goverment foster carer i work close with damaged kids who are no longer wanted by their parents were i am moving to canberra i wil have full time work until my filapino citazen ship is aproved so you are talking to an x street kid my friend not an educated person or some one who has been threw bible collage this gospel has changed me and i do not play around with things like i use to

and this is were i can shine and be that light jesus talks about and yes christians are hard to talk to this is some thing i also am seeing and i am learning know not to run but to walk hand in hand with god and not let this stop me from living a life free of drugs free of violence and free of crime as i want to enter that eternity that is talked about in

john 3 verse 36

he who believes in the son has everlasting life and he who does not believe the son shall not see life but the wrath of god abides on him

i am not mad at you but i was offended that is why i was pushing to see what sort of man you are

and i hope we can walk as one with each other and talk openly on this topic

i am at peace with you i hold no grudge towards you but i will if i feel my self being looked down on stand up for my self and for this gospel until we sort things out and then i wil do as christ taught his disciples and that is forgive as if i hold a grudge or judge 3 fingers are pointing at me and i do not dare tred on that path were i sit on my high horse and play church

god bless from your brother in the lord damien stipic

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Damien,

G-d bless you Brother. Your testimony just rips at my heart. You have been through some horrible trials in your life. You should not be made to feel any less a Christian, or condemned and I understand why you feel this way in response to this thread.

I just want you to know that I am honored to call you "brother" and I pray for you and you wife's ministry serving G-d. You are a blessing to us Damien. Don't let anyone lay condemnation on you, please keep your eyes on how Jesus sees you and how precious you are to Him.

May our gracious Heavenly Father bless you and your family.

[damo1]

Shalom Damien,

G-d bless you Brother. Your testimony just rips at my heart. You have been through some horrible trials in your life. You should not be made to feel any less a Christian, or condemned and I understand why you feel this way in response to this thread.

I just want you to know that I am honored to call you "brother" and I pray for you and you wife's ministry serving G-d. You are a blessing to us Damien. Don't let anyone lay condemnation on you, please keep your eyes on how Jesus sees you and how precious you are to Him.

May our gracious Heavenly Father bless you and your family.

damo1

high sister vickilynn

i pray that god also blesses you and your family you have a brother hear who is standing in the gap for you and praying for you and your family i am also thank for people like your self sister who have a good heart and who do really care for those standing on the out side this is something i never experianced in the churches i walked into and as soon as i sat down i was given the evil eye or some one was told to tell me to leave becaus i did not dress right or fit in

when i joined worthy i was also nerves but i found a place were i can talk and share with like minded brothers and sisters in the lord and i am ever so great full for the people threw worthy who have allowed me to be appart of their lives

again thank you sister i do really appreciate this

have a happy new year from your brother in the lord damien stipic

[Pilgrim7]

May the Peace of Christ keep your heart, Sister Vickilynn,

No hard feelings, I can assure you! I don't mind differing views as long as there is no judgment and condemnation for differing views. This is why I am speaking out against this thread as well as some others. Not the differing views but the calling of "Sin, sin, sin" and accusing of not believing Scripture, not understanding Scripture, promoting false doctrine, sending people to Hell (yada yada yada) if we don't agree with the premise or the interpretation of the OP.

THAT is the sin.

Do I understand you correctly, that you are now the one calling 'sin, sin,sin'. No one has here has accused anyone of 'sin, sin, sin' or send anyone to hell yet, (yada,yada,yada). That is God's job. He will judge between those who believe and keep His word and those who don't. He will bundle the tares to be burned and the wheat into His Garner, and he will do it through His word, as it is written, for unbelief is a sin. You see no one has accused anyone of sin, but just made a simple statement which is backed up by the word. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts individuals of sin, through the Word if they believe it and are open to it. You see as representatives of Christ, it is our duty to call sin sin, and to not call sin sin is sin. You see calling sin sin, is not accusing people of sin, but stating what is sin as revealed in the word. if they see it as that, maybe it is the Holy Spirit trying to convict them of sin. which is one of His jobs.

As usual I appreciate you advice and oppinion, but will not always agree with it.

One question I do have though, is why you seem so angry with the topic and the OP. Has someone made you the guardian of correct posting or attitude. I hope not. Sometimes you appear as though everyone has to bow to your way and conception of what to post and how to post. Maybe you could examine your attitude in posting and see if it could be improved. All said in love, Sister,

Your Brother in Christ,

Dennis

[Vickilynn]

Do I understand you correctly, that you are now the one calling 'sin, sin,sin'.

Shalom Dennis,

No, you do not correctly understand me.

No one has here has accused anyone of 'sin, sin, sin' or send anyone to hell yet, (yada,yada,yada).

Oh my, if you haven't seen these comments, perhaps we're not reading the same posts. Yes, these comments are all over the several threads on this topic. I can copy and paste them for you, but I'd rather you search and see them. They are there which is why I said what I said. They are there. Perhaps others will take the time and copy and pqaste for you, but I'm not inclined to at this moment. I will just re-state that these comments are all over these latest threads including THIS ONE.

That is God's job. He will judge between those who believe and keep His word and those who don't. He will bundle the tares to be burned and the wheat into His Garner, and he will do it through His word, as it is written, for unbelief is a sin.

Exactly what I have been saying all along. Dennis, did you miss my posts saying this as well? I am not being sarcastic here. How can not know that this is what I've been standing up and saying against these who are condemning? It is G-D's job to judge our hearts and our salvation, not us.

You see no one has accused anyone of sin, but just made a simple statement which is backed up by the word.

Actually, that's not quite true as I see it. It is the INTERPRETATION of the Scriptures that is the problem. In answer to the OP, most Christians believe the Word of G-d, however, where we disagree is man's interpretation of those Scriptures and how they apply.

It is the Holy Spirit who convicts individuals of sin, through the Word if they believe it and are open to it. You see as representatives of Christ, it is our duty to call sin sin, and to not call sin sin is sin. You see calling sin sin, is not accusing people of sin, but stating what is sin as revealed in the word. if they see it as that, maybe it is the Holy Spirit trying to convict them of sin. which is one of His jobs.

Nope. It is G-d's job, not yours or mine to judge hearts.

The Word of G-d convicts people of sin, but what we have here are PEOPLE putting their own spin on it and playing G-d, trying to do His job, judging people's hearts with condemnation and completely ignoring His grace, mercy and forgiveness.

This is what I am referring to.

As usual I appreciate you advice and oppinion, but will not always agree with it.

Back atcha!!

One question I do have though, is why you seem so angry with the topic and the OP. Has someone made you the guardian of correct posting or attitude. I hope not. Sometimes you appear as though everyone has to bow to your way and conception of what to post and how to post. Maybe you could examine your attitude in posting and see if it could be improved. All said in love, Sister,

Dennis, I am saddened by your disregard for the Word in doing this. You took your personal judgment of me and placed it in a public thread. Now, the right thing to do would have been according to Matthew 18, PM me PRIVATELY and discuss your concerns about my heart. They do not belong here and I will report them to the Mods. I am responding in PM and in this thread to show the hypocrisy of your words.

Also, you are not in a position to judge my heart or attitude and you are dead wrong about your opinion of what I feel and think. BUT, I would have been more open to your words, more inclined to discuss them with you supposedly said in love, if they had been written in love according to the Scriptures and not for some other agenda in a public forum.

Please Brother, walk your talk. Check out your own log (your own motives, your own agenda, your own spirit, your own heart ) before you attempt to speak to someone else about your perceived speck in their eye. THAT would be the Biblical thing to do, not what you just did.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

Matthew 18

5 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

[eric]

Wow! what a kerfuffle and a turmoil over a question that no christian should argue over. T he short answer should have been yes, I do believe those scriptures to be the truth, because they cannot be denied.

I thought for a while, it was akind of a trap, but now I think it was a leading question, much more than it was a trap.

What we all should have done was answer yes, because that is the only answer when all said and done. Then we should have put the ball back in tsth's court and ask what was her motive behind the question, because yes is the only honest answer we can give. There is absolutely no reason for brethren to fall out over this thread.

No one should accusing anyone of anything.

edited to add.

Edited December 27, 2007 by eric

[OneLight]

Wow! what a kerfuffle and a turmoil over a question that no christian should argue over. T he short answer should have been yes, I do believe those scriptures to be the truth, because they cannot be denied.

I thought for a while, it was akind of a trap, but now I think it was a leading question, much more than it was a trap.

What we all should have done was answer yes, because that is the only answer when all said and done. Then we should have put the ball back in tsth's court and ask what was her motive behind the question, because yes is the only honest answer we can give. There is absolutely no reason for brethren to fall out over this thread.

No one should accusing anyone of anything.

edited to add.

Thank You Brother ...