The indignant illegitimacy of 4 dimensional beings

[MrsSealedEternal]

Also tends to show how God know how we turn out on the day we were born. He is not bound by time as we are, so he can see the whole life as a single point which is interesting to me.

Eternity really is not for ever....... it's non existant time.

Huh?! Non existant time is not for ever it is eternity...?

God does not live in a time flow as we do...... there is no time there...... no begining and no ending it just 'is'.

The way you worded it at the end sounded nonsensical to me, because I was equating forever with eternity. I understand and agree with what you mean in general. I looked up the definitions of forever and eternity just to see if I was using the definitions correctly and here is what it said...

Forever

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

forever: [from for + ever, i.e. for always]

The concept of something existing beyond the flow of time, or retaining its status for an infinite or for an indefinite, or undetermined, period of time.

On a universal scale very few concepts, if any, are truly forever. Proponents of a closed universe believe that even time itself will have an end. See Eternity.

******************

Eternity

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For other senses of the word "eternity", see eternity (disambiguation).

While in the popular mind, eternity often simply means existing for an Everlasting, i.e., limitless, amount of time, many have used it to refer to a timeless existence altogether outside of time.

...turns out we were using different definitions. I think God is able to step into the concept of time while existing outside of it.

I yes, but, in my concept He can be at the beginning and the end at the same time in your concept. When you exist outside the linear time line we exist in, you can see a persons birth and death at the same time, and know every single moment of that persons life before we even know of the next moment.

God hated Esau even before he was born the Bible says..... It's because he knew what Esau was long before he was even born..... but it's Esau that made himself what he was. It's a little spooky to think about that, but the Bible talks of it and both Hyper Dimensional Physics and string theory physics predicts it from what little I have read about them.

Ah yes, he is the Alpha and the Omega, who is, who was, and who is to come, the Eternal One. I do believe we agree.

[other one]

close enough for me

[the_interactionist]

My previous post was just concerning the issue (and often misconceptions) between atheism and agnosticism, both positions that I currently occupy. Now I'd like to summarize my opinion of your quite interesting and mind-bending multi-dimensional discussion. If you don't mind I will break apart your discussion and try to respond piece by piece, and then possibly add an overall summary of my response, with hopes that this adds to the discussion

Imagine a basketball turning inside out without its surface breaking. Such things are possible in a fifth dimension of space and time, but why can't we perceive such things in our mind? The answer is because we are not 5th dimensional beings, we are 4. width, length, height, and time. A fifth unnamed dimension can very plausibly exist, as well as a 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and so onth. Let me explain using Mario, a very high brow and intellectual man lol.

We are 4th dimensional beings indeed, and to conjecture about further possible dimensions is highly intriguing and one of the most interesting areas of theoretical study. It is however hard for us to perceive other dimensions because of the very fact that our minds seem to be designed to survive in this environment. Although this is not a discussion of evolution or creation or origins, I would like to add that I think there is much evidence and reason to believe that we perceive the world exactly this way because that is how we evolved, to best handle such an environment. Onto the discussion of Mario!

Mario is a two dimensional being living in a two dimensional world. Mario cannot perceive the third dimension that gives everything volume. Filling a cup for him is impossible just as a basketball turning inside out without breaking its surface is impossible to us. Sure likenesses of the cup can be made out of two dimensions using various shapes, but it is just not a cup, it has no volume at all. Therefore what would happen when another two dimensional buddy tries to break the "fourth wall" and tell him there is a whole other world full of these objects that have mass, and we can turn in a full circle and behold our environment, and things fill other things...well if he were an expert at math he could perceive the third and fourth dimensions as we have with our algebra and calculus. If he were not an expert at math he could not fathom the difference a couple dimensions make. [http://www.physorg.com/news88699794.html] <<<visit this link for more info. I am talking specifically about "[The] proof of the famous Poincar

[Guest avoidcausticpeople]

I consider myself an agnostic, because I don't have absolute or certain knowledge of the existence or non-existence of God.

countless billions of galaxies your tiny eyes will never see, countless billions of atomic structures within a single living cell

the fool has said in his heart, 'there is no God', their deeds are vile

Edited December 26, 2007 by avoidcausticpeople

[Guest avoidcausticpeople]

even a single hydrogen atom is a miracle of intricate design on an impossibly minute scale...and what structures are within no one knows

fools can't see it, because they are spritually dead....it's a vast world they will never see

Edited December 26, 2007 by avoidcausticpeople

[Guest avoidcausticpeople]

Again, the only conclusion I can draw from the evidence that demonstrates that a hydrogen atom is intricate on an impossibly minute scale is simply the observation made: that hydrogen atoms are incredibly small and incredibly intricate! If you are honestly trying to assert God from this fact, then you are stepping out of the bounds of logic and reason.

conversely, anyone who denies a super-rational Designer of the same steps outside the same bounds

[Matthitjah]

...

Atheism is a personal statement that one knows that God does not exist beyond our own imagination, and beyond our own creative abilities. So may I ask out of pure curiosity one question of every atheist on this board.

"How can you claim that logic is on your side when the clear logical victory goes to the agnostic?"

...

I hope you don't mind if I concentrate purely on the question you seemed to highlight the most. I agree, that from the viewpoint of any human, agnosticism should be the default and accepted position. It bothers me when I see atheists who claim to have proven that God doesn't exist, just as much as it bothers me to see theists who say they absolutely know God exists, when in fact they only just have belief. I'd like to start a thread that summarizes my own viewpoint, in hopes that it might clear up some of the misconceptions about atheism and agnosticism, but for now I will respond to your question since it has already been posed.

Bear with me because this might get long for a simple forum response and may serve well better as a new thread, but regardless here it is.

I consider myself an agnostic, because I don't have absolute or certain knowledge of the existence or non-existence of God. To me this is an intellectually honest position, because claiming to have absolute knowledge of the answer to the question of God (excluding the various abstract and feathery definitions) is to put oneself in quite a demanding position. No one is required to explain or prove anything to anyone else, especially something probably held quite personal and in emotionally high esteem, but if such a belief, personal or not, is to be based upon as cause or purpose for any action, one would expect at least some form of evidential or logical reasoning as to the truth of such a claim. This position of agnosticism is not incompatible with atheism, nor is it incompatible with theism. One can personally believe in God, and yet still recognize his/her own inability to honestly know God's existence. Likewise, one might realize that he/she is not in a position to know if a God exists or not, but still come to a comfortable personal conclusion that one does not exist.

Like I said, I consider myself an agnostic, because of the intellectually honest position I remain in with regards to the question of God's existence. I do however still maintain a personal belief on the issue, even with the understanding that I cannot honestly know. My "belief" I would rather call a conclusion, as it was drawn under careful examination of the nature of God, the multiple definitions and characteristics attributed to him/her, and the evidence put forth, as well as the many arguments and lines of reasoning used in evaluating the evidence or lack of evidence. My conclusion is temporary in that it is constantly subject to any new input, ideas, information, evidence, arguments, or reasons, and can therefore at any moment be swayed; but, it still remains a firm and confident conclusion at this very moment because up to this point I have reasonable evaluated the concept of God with the greatest respect to the fact that I cannot know, and yet I do not have sufficient reasons to necessitate a belief in God. I remain open-minded, but also skeptical, and it is up to those arguing for a God to present me with enough satisfactory reasons for theism over atheism. It is for this reason that in addition to being an agnostic, I also consider myself an atheist, because I do not believe that a God exists.

Grace to you,

Then again there are the incredible and Outrageous, if untrue, claims of Jesus Christ.

What have you to say about them?

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Your welcome CausticAgnostic.

I have a few questions for you based upon these comments;

Beyond those issues however I do think that if he did live, he must have been a true thinker for his time, and a great moralist! He probably had much influence on the lives of those around him, and no doubt was one of the great religious teachers of his time, and because of his expression through the writings of the Gospel, he's still a great influence in modern Christian culture.

If He were a liar, would you feel the same way? I mean, if He made some outrageous claims that seemingly are untrue, could He be a Great Religious Teacher and even a Great Moralist? Should He have had any influence at all if He were a liar?

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

It's okay that you didn't answer the question.

Let's explore it a little more though, and a few of your other thoughts, okay.

I'm a thinker too, and some folks say I think or dwell on things way too much.

The writers could have embellished on what they knew, or what little they knew, or completely made it all up, or written about what they honestly thought was taking place regardless of actual events.

Your saying here that the writers of the Gospel either lied of made up out of whole cloth the Gospel.

To what ends?

You also state in the above quote that the writers of the Gospel actually wrote about what they thought took place outside of the actual events.

Did you know the Gospel states otherwise?

Lu

[patricia1]

wow, observer of dreams... I am gone a few days and look at this post you posted...It is wonderful and yes ther are many different dimensions we do not see in the natural..Wow I can't belive this...Even if we divide the time of day there are different dimensions happening and yet we divide daytime only into three sections...mostly anyway. I find this a very hard subject to discuss with most people none the less christians. We read about the third heavens and most do not give it a thought. Lol

We see Michael our warring angel getting caught in a fight between heaven and earth trying to deliver a message.

The chemical process within a prescription is enough to confuse anyone. There are so many different levels of conciousness as well which many who have awakened could let you know about it. wow Praise the Lord!! patricia1