Divorce question...

[Smalcald]

Friends are tough issues.

I just had a friend leave his wife for another woman. The reason he had for leaving was his wife was gripy and controlling and he could not see living with that the rest of his life; he also (of course) fell in love with another women. When his wife found out he asked me what he should do. I told him just point blank at that point that they have kids, and that he has a responsibility to keep his vows, basically suck it up and be a man and hold your family together. So he did not leave, he stayed with her another six months, but he never really repented of his adultery, in fact all of the time unknown to me he kept seeing his "true love" this other women who he was committing adultery with. Of course in the end he left and his wife begged him to stay if he would only give up this other women, but divorce was in his head, it was a solution and he grabbed it.

So I tried, but people's hearts are a hard thing to have any impact on. Our friendship will never be the same, but we are still friends. Although I notice that he avoids me to some extent and indeed has surrounded himself with more "accepting" people. So in these cases all we can do is give our advice from the heart, but I have found people will do what they want to do in the long run, and pretty much find any excuse to justify their behavior. Hopefully Christians would be a little different, but not always. (this guy was not a believer).

[VRSpock]

The scary thing about some people's attitude towards divorce, especially those who consider themselves to be Christians (and I'm speaking about people in general here and not making accusations toward anyone who has posted on this thread), is that G-d doesn't ask us to make believers out of men....He asks us to make disciples. The devil believes Jesus is the Son of G-d...especially since Jesus resurrected 3 days later! So what makes someone who claims to believe in Jesus any different from the devil? They follow G-d's written Word and they realize that they are not the ones who affix the label "Christian" on their foreheads, but it is G-d who judges us and not ourselves. When we begin justifying things based upon our own personal perspectives or personal theology, then we have attempted to put ourselves in the Judgement Seat and we see where that got the angel Lucifer who was once G-d's servant.

G-d gives clear instructions concerning marriage and divorce and like I said in a previous post, I myself am a past victim of divorce. Sometimes divorce is not by our choice, or the situation at hand has scriptural merit for divorce (physical abuse or physical adultry) or the other person who is walking away is simply not a follower of G-d's word despite whatever they have convinced themselves of.

If you actually study out what G-d's Word says then clearly advising someone to divorce their spouse is not permitted, no matter how pure the intentions are, as that is a violation of the sanctity of Holy Matrimony. It doesn't matter if the person advising is a friend or even a parent of the person in question.

[Openly Curious]

OC quote

The younger widows and widowers thirty years and younger was counceled to remarry again as they would still have a desire for sex and if they didn't remarry then they would become idle and gosippers. This has nothing to do with their relationship with Christ but their own phyical needs so it want get out of control.

OC reply

It is not those who are thirty years and under who all go astray way from the Lord as the widows who are thirty years and under are counseled by God to remarry so these cannot be in sin or stray from there relationship with God when they were told to do it.

But it is those who do not follow God's plan to remarry it is these that will wax wanton because they did not remarry and they will give into sexual immorality or fornication if you will and when they do this they have left the faith and their relationship with the Lord and have been given over to Satan. So that is what I am trying to convey that it is not the ones who remarry who have left the faith but it is those who refuse to remarry that fall into fornication and these are to be given over to Satan as they have left the faith......

Greg quote

You're not suggesting what it might appear you are, are you? I'm almost sixty and... well, never mind. Greg.

OC response

There is no where in the word that I personally know of that condemns a widow or widower from sixty years and older to get remarried. A matter of fact in Romans 7:4 it lets one know that if a spouse dies they have a biblical right to remarry if they choose as they are released from the law. I also know that those who are 60 and older still have sexual desires so if they choose they can remarry.

The scriptures teaches that the family members are to care for the widows and widowers that are sixty years and above so that the church can care for those who are widows indeed who have no family members to care for them.

But you are free to remarry as there is no restrictions that the older widows and widowers cannot remarry.

OC

[Guest Greg Davies]

If you actually study out what G-d's Word says then clearly advising someone to divorce their spouse is not permitted, no matter how pure the intentions are, as that is a violation of the sanctity of Holy Matrimony. It doesn't matter if the person advising is a friend or even a parent of the person in question.

The sanctity of Holy Matrimony. There is an element of truth to this phrase. However, it is not a biblical phrase and it tends to create in the minds of people a mystical bond that transcends the realities of a covenant relationship. It causes marriage to become a religious bondage, regardless of the unrepentant breaking of the marriage vows. We become trapped in the fear that "in the eyes of God" we are forever obligated to an adulterous, abusing, or neglectful spouse. God forbid.

Greg.

[Openly Curious]

In I Tim. 5:11-15 - 11

[Smalcald]

If you actually study out what G-d's Word says then clearly advising someone to divorce their spouse is not permitted, no matter how pure the intentions are, as that is a violation of the sanctity of Holy Matrimony. It doesn't matter if the person advising is a friend or even a parent of the person in question.

The sanctity of Holy Matrimony. There is an element of truth to this phrase. However, it is not a biblical phrase and it tends to create in the minds of people a mystical bond that transcends the realities of a covenant relationship. It causes marriage to become a religious bondage, regardless of the unrepentant breaking of the marriage vows. We become trapped in the fear that "in the eyes of God" we are forever obligated to an adulterous, abusing, or neglectful spouse. God forbid.

Greg.

But on the other side marriage is mystical and is something created by God, not by human beings so in that sense it would be said to transcend any sort of human commitment we make. What I mean is a marriage is something God does, He is joining the couple in a marriage, so there is something mystical going on it is between three parties, God and the couple, our vow is not only to the other person but to God.

But of course we should never be trapped to an abusive dangerous situation or one with adultery, and of course we can do nothing about a husband or wife who leaves us. This is why scripture allows divorce in those situations.

(on edit)

I think what most Christians are concerned with is the idea that if we are not happy in our marriage that in itself is a reason for divorce or if we feel this person who I married is not making me happy anymore that would mean I can divorce.

So in the end the point is not about abuse or adultery or abandonment but about the way the majority of divorces occur one of the parties is not happy anymore. This is never a reason for a Christian divorce and I do think in that case there is a real problem with future marriages and repentance for the party who just wants out of a marriage because they are not happy. In general divorce should always be something that is not our choice as a Christian. So if your spouse commits adultery, not your choice, if your spouse is abusive or leaves the marriage these is not your choices. But if you are not happy and want to leave, if you are the one committing adultery, if you are the one leaving, I do not believe that scripture would allow you to divorce in those cases.

The idea of divorce for reasons of happiness is a modern idea, something that really came about in the 1960

[Xan]

"He hates all divorce."

Show me in the KJV where it says that or that divorce is a sin.

Edited May 14, 2008 by hellbunny

[irishcowboy]

there is something i have heard this working very well.....

in a case where one person is totally set on making the marriage work and the other only partially, this might be a way of bringing it back....

if the Husband wants the wife to give up, and be the one to "file" this is like a transfer of guilt, placing the blame on the wife, it would also work the other way around too.... transfer of guilt/blame....

one of the two can start completely serving the other, placing the other (so to speak) as a king or queen of the house, and ensure their needs are met, and do it with as much love as can be mustered up...... (love, if you give it, it grows, if you hold it, it dies, so lend it, spend it, give it away......and there will be more then you can hold) and continue to do so with all their strength.... asking the Lord for the strength to keep on giving.....

people think marriage is a "50/50" thing, a give/take.... they are wrong, it is a 100 % thing, 100% giving, no taking..... receive what is given, not taking what is not offered...... it must be a give/give relationship......

I had a hard time understanding what it meant to be "ONE" with some one else, and how Christ, the Son could be One with the Father..... until I met Teresa..... we are one..... we have the same goals, we have the same understandings, yes, there are times we do not agree on things, there are times that i may be slack in an area, and she will be strong, but out main objectives are still the same, the same mind. some times we even see the way of doing something totally different then each other, but our thoughts are still on the outcome, not on how to get it done.....

just like with plumbing, for the most part, i did not use 45 deg bends when doing supply lines, i tried to get the lines from point A to point B with as few joints and bends as possible, to keep things looking square and plumb, there were times i did use 45 deg bends.... another person might use 45 deg bends at every turn..... there is nothing wrong with either method, both get the job done, and both will look very well. this would be a personal pref.... both achieved the same results, just done differently.....

Teresa and me work together on things, we also look at the bills when they come in and we discuss which ones will be paid when and by what means (check, money order, cash......in person, by phone, mail...... ) the means really does not matter, unless we are trying to beat a dead line, then we might do check by phone to ensure we get it there on time....

in reading some of the post above, it appears that both parties are really not trying to work it out, they seem to be trying to "pass the buck" to the other... I do not know all the circumstances of the whole ordeal, so can not pass judgment......

mike

[artsylady]

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with me counseling, praying for, or having a friend of a different gender.

Be very, very careful brother. This is a boundary issue and you've crossed a boundary that many will not, for good reason. I do believe your intentions are real or good, but imo, you are playing with fire.

Please don't think I'm judging you - just warning you. This kind of closeness can lead to other things and all too often does in the Christian and secular world.

You know quite a bit about the wife. Can you also try to get the same kind of friendship from the husband? That would be very, very honorable if you could try.

[Xan]

One of my very best friends is a female who is having marital problems and is on the verge of divorce. I understand the bibles position on divorce (as does she) and it is a very difficult thing to watch as the marriage deteriorates. We have both prayed ALOT for her husband, but there seems to be no change in his attitude towards his wife, or the marriage in general. I should point out that they are BOTH Christians. Here is my question...

The bible tells us that ONE of the two reasons for divorce is physical abandonment (i.e. the spouse actually leaving the marriage). In this case the husband has not "physically" left. In fact, he seems to be taking advantage of the biblical principle of physical abandonment in that he feels justified in his actions as long as HE isn't the one leaving. However, he has completely spiritually abandoned the marriage by refusing to partake in the marriage or the spiritual growth of the marriage, or his wife. He has refused Christian counseling and seems intent on doing nothing to stop the bleeding. However, he feels justified in his behavior as long as he doesn't leave the marriage. My friend even gave him a deadline for change (their anniversary date in the middle of March) hoping to motivate him to at least go to counseling...that date came and went. In fact, he didn't even speak to her on their anniversary. It just seems like lunacy to me. Has this man not abandoned the marriage? Even if he refuses to "physically" leave?

I know this might sound like I am phishing for reasons to support divorce...but I can assure you I have prayed for this marriage for some time. It is becoming increasingly more difficult for me to be objective as I see the pain my friend is going through. So I thought I would turn to my friends here at WB for a more objective viewpoint.

God was quite specific as to His criteria for the model marraige. Most Christian marraiges are outside of His will, so what is someone who wants to live in God's perfect will who is married to someone whose heart is hard supposed to do? The answer is a very controversial one, but it is God's Word.

1: When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

2: And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. God instituted divorce in order to make sure the women are not simply abandoned. At that time, when a man wished to no longer be married to a particular woman, he simply sent her away, but she was still legally bound in marraige to him and she had no recourse whatsoever. God could have put it into His Torah a punishment for divorce or sending away, but He didn't because divorce is not a sin. The sin is committed in what lead up to the divorce, and in His grace and wisdom gave those with a heart to serve God in a blessed institution a way to do so when a spouse's heart has turned hard toward his/her wife/husband. For those that would argue and say God hates divorce, let's look at the verse in Malachai:

14: Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

15: And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

16: For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. The original text says He hates "putting away". Let's go back to Deutoronomy 24: The order is to give her a divorce then send her away. One is committing an agregious sin by putting away his wife without a divorce.

Remember, God is the author of His Torah, not Moses. Moses wrote down the words God commanded him, and we are not to add or take away from that. God's Law has not changed. I thank the Lord for giving people like me grace enough to remove themselves from spiritually harmful marraiges so that we are free to enter into a covenental relationship with someone who is of God and wants a marraige based in God's perfect will.