The ten nations that the Anti-christ will rule?

[givennewname]

Rufus,

To perhaps clarify the points about Jeremiah's references to the future. Both Jeremiah and Isaiah used Hebrew "Messianic idioms" - often times abbreviated to the point that the English translators simply could not properly translate the abbreviated idioms without making the English text excessively wordy and or grammatically incorrect.

Often times, the Hebrew Messianic idiom, "the Day of the Lord" was written by its known abbreviation of that era, such as "that Day" being a reference to "The Day of the Lord" or to the day of the Banner of the Messiah, or "gevlai shel maschiach" or sometimes just simply - "gevlai" as in "wave" or "raise" the banner. Such abbreviated Messianic idioms were well known to the rabbis and various rabbinical commentators from the 2nd and 3rd century B.C. made notes of these abbreviations.

I agree. MAny times in the writings of the prophet, the term in that day or The day of the Lord or the day of the Lor'd vengence refer to the end times.

However, an appeal to grammar does not justify making a quantum leap to the conclusion that Jeremiah, et. al. were making esoteric predictions about events that were to take place thousands of years in their future. Their concern was more immediate, i.e. decades, not millenia. Their concern was enforcing the covenant among the people of their time.

Rufus - the rules of hermeneutics require grammatical understanding and recognition whether the hermeneutical principles pertain to Biblical writings or in modern day contractual law.

There is no, repeat NO quantum leap in Jeremiah 30:7-8 or any of the other verses in that chapter. The prophets used Hebrew Messianic idioms extensively. You apparently have no understanding of the Mishnah or the Midrash nor the long traditional of rebbinical analysis of the prophet's writings or you'd know better than to make such a statement as you've made.

Furthermore ... Jeremiah 30:2 ... Jeremiah is told to write down what God had spoken to him. Jeremiah did not pick and choose only ideas that pertained to the near future. In fact, Jeremiah chose nothing of his own. He wrote down what he was told by God to write down.

Now as for proving statements - prove your statement - "Their concern was more immediate, i.e. decades, not millenia. "

Prove that statement- Prove it. I want factual documentation to validate your point. The fact of the matter is that you cannot because there can be no such documentation. You've jumped to conclusions based on erroneous presuppositions and misrepresentations of the facts. The facts are - the text is littered with Messianic idioms and statements that pertain to the time of the coming of Messiah, not mere decades.

Rufus - why do I get the sense that you are nothing but a troll who takes great delight in debating and arguing for the sole purpose and delight of debating and arguing.

Personally, I see no valid reason to continue discussing the matter with someone who clearly can not accept or understand valid hermeneutical principles.

Dear brother,

Rufus - why do I get the sense that you are nothing but a troll who takes great delight in debating and arguing for the sole purpose and delight of debating and arguing.

I wouldn't be so harsh on Rufus. I think these ideas do take getting used to.. I had lots of problems accepting them until further studies..

After repeated readings of the text in Jeremiah I felt the conviction of the Spirit. I urge the same diligent studies of the scriptures...

[Ephesians2-8]

[givennewname]

Rufus,

To perhaps clarify the points about Jeremiah's references to the future. Both Jeremiah and Isaiah used Hebrew "Messianic idioms" - often times abbreviated to the point that the English translators simply could not properly translate the abbreviated idioms without making the English text excessively wordy and or grammatically incorrect.

Often times, the Hebrew Messianic idiom, "the Day of the Lord" was written by its known abbreviation of that era, such as "that Day" being a reference to "The Day of the Lord" or to the day of the Banner of the Messiah, or "gevlai shel maschiach" or sometimes just simply - "gevlai" as in "wave" or "raise" the banner. Such abbreviated Messianic idioms were well known to the rabbis and various rabbinical commentators from the 2nd and 3rd century B.C. made notes of these abbreviations.

I agree. MAny times in the writings of the prophet, the term in that day or The day of the Lord or the day of the Lor'd vengence refer to the end times.

However, an appeal to grammar does not justify making a quantum leap to the conclusion that Jeremiah, et. al. were making esoteric predictions about events that were to take place thousands of years in their future. Their concern was more immediate, i.e. decades, not millenia. Their concern was enforcing the covenant among the people of their time.

Rufus - the rules of hermeneutics require grammatical understanding and recognition whether the hermeneutical principles pertain to Biblical writings or in modern day contractual law.

There is no, repeat NO quantum leap in Jeremiah 30:7-8 or any of the other verses in that chapter. The prophets used Hebrew Messianic idioms extensively. You apparently have no understanding of the Mishnah or the Midrash nor the long traditional of rebbinical analysis of the prophet's writings or you'd know better than to make such a statement as you've made.

Furthermore ... Jeremiah 30:2 ... Jeremiah is told to write down what God had spoken to him. Jeremiah did not pick and choose only ideas that pertained to the near future. In fact, Jeremiah chose nothing of his own. He wrote down what he was told by God to write down.

Now as for proving statements - prove your statement - "Their concern was more immediate, i.e. decades, not millenia. "

Prove that statement- Prove it. I want factual documentation to validate your point. The fact of the matter is that you cannot because there can be no such documentation. You've jumped to conclusions based on erroneous presuppositions and misrepresentations of the facts. The facts are - the text is littered with Messianic idioms and statements that pertain to the time of the coming of Messiah, not mere decades.

Rufus - why do I get the sense that you are nothing but a troll who takes great delight in debating and arguing for the sole purpose and delight of debating and arguing.

Personally, I see no valid reason to continue discussing the matter with someone who clearly can not accept or understand valid hermeneutical principles.

Valid hermeneutical principles do not include wild leaps of imagination such as supposing that Jeremiah was predicting events that would not come to pass for thousands of years. Chapters 30-31 of Jeremiah are a single oracle that restates the promise of Deuteronomy 30:1-10, written to the Israelites of Jeremiah's day. The literary form is that of the "salvation" or "promise" oracle which has three elements-reference to the future, radical change and blessing.

The reference to the future is 30:3 "For the days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will restore the fortunes of my people, Israel and Judah, says the Lord, and I will bring them back to the land that I gave their ancestors and they shall take possession of it."The radical change is 30:8 and the blessing is 30:10 through the end of 31. The oracle has to be read as a whole, not piecemeal. That's basic exegesis. Proper hermeneutics does not allow a far-future fulfillment and there are no objective contextual controls permitting such an interpretation.

Questions?

Valid hermeneutical principles do not include wild leaps of imagination such as supposing that Jeremiah was predicting events that would not come to pass for thousands of years. Chapters 30-31 of Jeremiah are a single oracle that restates the promise of Deuteronomy 30:1-10, written to the Israelites of Jeremiah's day. The literary form is that of the "salvation" or "promise" oracle which has three elements-reference to the future, radical change and blessing.

The reference to the future is 30:3 "For the days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will restore the fortunes of my people, Israel and Judah, says the Lord, and I will bring them back to the land that I gave their ancestors and they shall take possession of it."

Proper hermeneutics does not allow a far-future fulfillment and there are no objective contextual controls permitting such an interpretation.

Even proper English grammer does not allow for intrepretation toplace fulfillment of prophecy in Jermiah's time in Jer 30:7-11 as all the grammer is in future tense.

Seet

[irishcowboy]

I believe that he won't be recognized as the anti-christ until the first 3.5 years are past (42 months) then he will cause death and destruction for the last 42 months. I believe that many will be deceived by him, as the bible states even the elect are almost deceived by him, but many will believe that he is the messiah, in my opinion

side note:I don't believe that the church will go through the seven year tribulation, but will be raptured out of this world,

If the church is gone, who's gonna be looking for the anti-christ? All the believers will be gone.

Will the "elect" be left behind? Why wouldn't they be taken in the rapture?

some will be, even Church Goers..... there will be some that are left because of their life not lining up with what God has set forth, some will have an aire of righteousness, but will have none in them... some will be prophecying some will be healing, some will be casting out demons in the name of Jesus, but they will not make it......

some will have acepted Christ at a younger age, and then will not follow up on Him..... some will believe, but will not have their wedding garments clean (spotless), some will believe and will not have any oil in their lamps and will be left behind......

we are told to be ready at all times....... our witness will be seen and is seen by all those around us, even those we never see, know us by the fruit of our labor...... some people are all talk, but when it comes to the walk......

we are talking salvation issues, not doctrinal issues (such as hair length and dresses and such).... we can not work our way into Heaven, but our works will be measured...... Christ is the only way.......

mike

[Celt]

The title of Christian applied to both believing Jews and Gentiles at Antioch. Per Paul in Romans there is no separation in Christ's Church between believing Jews and Gentiles. Nor is there a requirement to follow a Jewish standard of interpretation when studying the Old Testament prophets, mainly because both Old and New Testament Books closely weave together in content revealing God's Plan of Salvation progressively to all believers on His Savior Jesus Christ. This is why we find the "day of the Lord" phrase used also in the New Testament Books concerning the Church at the end of this world, the Christian Church, which means both believing Jews and Gentiles as one Body.

It was the Pharisee converts that had a difficult time accepting Gentile believers on Christ. Peter once made the mistake of separating away from Gentile believers when his Jewish brethren from Jerusalem came to visit; and it drew a rebuke from the apostle Paul (Galatians, a Book concerning the Gauls).

I have seen this false separation idea between believing Israelites and believing Gentiles being used today with many on the pre-trib rapture doctrine. It is a stumbling doctrine, because all the Body of Christ will be gathered by Christ Jesus at the same time, together, as written. It is man that tries to create more than one time of gathering of Christ's saints, especially among doctrines of a pre-trib rapture. Because the New Testament is very clear there will be believers going through the great tribulation, that separation idea had to be put forth to give weight to the idea of some being raptured out prior to the tribulation. And now some believers try to justify their being raptured out while their other fellow-servants and brethren are 'left-behind? Such an idea is confusion, it's not written.

Because God's Word clearly shows there will be Christians going through the great tribulation, that does not support any idea that some Christians are raptured prior to the tribulation while other Christians are somehow 'left-behind'. Nor does that give the excuse to assign those going through the tribulation as being mainly Jewish believers either. We're all going through the tribulation as written, for Christ's return and gathering of His saints is not until the 7th trumpet sounding. False messiah, or 'antichrist' must be here first for Christ to come and defeat him with the brightness of His coming, as written in 2 Thess.2. There is no 'secret coming' of Christ written in The Bible either.

Those who might think I'm wrong on this ought to take more time out to study God's Word line upon line for theirselves instead of simply heeding whatever popular doctrines spring up within today's churches.

[Rick-Parker]

Those who might think I'm wrong on this ought to take more time out to study God's Word line upon line for their selves instead of simply heeding whatever popular doctrines spring up within today's churches.

That is a pretty arrogant statement, don't you think? Especially since you provide no biblical truth or reference for your statements.

[Guest]

Line By Line

[1] If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

[2] Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

[3] Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Philippians 2:1-3

Love One Another

For What It's Worth....

My Darling Wife Believes The LORD Will Rapture Us Up Before The Tribulation "You Would Have To Be Crazy To Want Your Loved Ones To Go Through It!"

Whereas I Think We Who Remain Will Be Raptured Up To The lord AS He Descends Down To His Jerusalem.

I Have No Problem Reading The Scriptures Either Way.

But The One Thing I Should Know.....

Love God In All Things

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

And As Israel Is Born Again

And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Luke 21:29-31

And As The Spirit Of Christ Blows Over Her

Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. Ezekiel 37:9-14

And Even Over My Own Opinions I Should Fiercely Love My Brothers And Sisters And Seriously Look Up

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Revelation 22:12-13

Because Maranatha! The KING Returns......

[Celt]

Those who might think I'm wrong on this ought to take more time out to study God's Word line upon line for their selves instead of simply heeding whatever popular doctrines spring up within today's churches.

That is a pretty arrogant statement, don't you think? Especially since you provide no biblical truth or reference for your statements.

It's not meant to be arrogant; it's meant to be truthful. I can make such a statement easily because God's Word covers that very type of thing for the last days with many warnings against being deceived by wolves in sheep's clothing, and the hireling that preaches for hire only. Antiaging delivered a thread about Plain Statements in The Bible which show a post-tribulation return of our Lord Jesus and resurrection of the saints. If Christ was coming to rapture us out prior to the tribulation, then that would be written as plain statements in His Word. No such plain statements exist in The Bible for the pre-trib rapture idea, but they do exist for the post-trib last trumpet coming of Christ's Jesus, the same trump sounding of 1 Thess.4.

[givennewname]

Those who might think I'm wrong on this ought to take more time out to study God's Word line upon line for their selves instead of simply heeding whatever popular doctrines spring up within today's churches.

That is a pretty arrogant statement, don't you think? Especially since you provide no biblical truth or reference for your statements.

It's not meant to be arrogant; it's meant to be truthful. I can make such a statement easily because God's Word covers that very type of thing for the last days with many warnings against being deceived by wolves in sheep's clothing, and the hireling that preaches for hire only. Antiaging delivered a thread about Plain Statements in The Bible which show a post-tribulation return of our Lord Jesus and resurrection of the saints. If Christ was coming to rapture us out prior to the tribulation, then that would be written as plain statements in His Word. No such plain statements exist in The Bible for the pre-trib rapture idea, but they do exist for the post-trib last trumpet coming of Christ's Jesus, the same trump sounding of 1 Thess.4.

There are no specific mentions in the Old testament about 2 separate coming of the messiah but if one reads the scriptures carefully, it is obvious that the only way for the messiah to be a suffering servant and a victorious conquering eternal ruler of the line of David is two separate coming of the Lord. Not all scripture is blatant as you say..