Age of the Earth

[Guest Honolulu-Dad]

Dear brother Bill C.11

I want to apologize to you about the way this thread has turned out. I had no idea when I posted my original reply to your question that I would be personally attacked as I have been.

You know, I feel justified in defending myself of being falsely accused, yet, I feel bad that it had to happen on your thread.

Brother, please forgive me!!

I still apperciate your question. And, I still stick to my original responce. Perhaps you know if we are allowed to post our e-mail addresses on these forums. If we are, I wouldn't mind posting mine so we could continue the discussion in a more Christ-like manner.

Sadly, some just are not going to allow that here.

I would actually enjoy sharing my thoughts on the topic. As I said, the pre-ademics fasinates me.

It is my prayer that the Lord bless you. That He expand your borders and increase your territory. May you prosper in everything you set your hand to. In Jesus name - amen.

[HAZARD]

Brothers and Sisters,

This question came up in chat today, (July 3, 2008):

Accoding to the Bible, starting with Adam, mankind is approx 6,000 years old according to the Hebrew calender. so then How much older is the Earth compared to Man? Is it 4 days older, or is it much older as stated by the verse, 2Pe 3:8 "But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day."?

Your comments would be appreciated.

Love In Christ,

Bill_C.11

I think it's a mistake to try wrapping God's work up in man's timetable, or man's perception of time. It's a natural kind of mistake that we cannot get away from though because we've been geared for the temporal and the finite ever since we brought ourselves low at the fall of man.

God doesn't exist in time and although He knows how we perceive time from our limited, finite perspective, I would guess that God Himself does not perceive time, or experience the passing of time. It's a disconnect between God and us.

The problem with this line of thought is that if you talk this way, some claim that you don't REALLY think the Bible is inspired because Genesis sounds literal, but I believe there literally are different definitions of "day" if you go back to Hebrew.....

day, time, year

1. day (as opposed to night)

2. day (24 hour period)

1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1

2. as a division of time 1b

3. a working day, a day's journey

4. days, lifetime (pl.)

5. time, period (general)

6. year

7. temporal references

1. today

2. yesterday

3. tomorrow

______________________________________________________________________________

God does exist and He exists in time. Time is and always was measurable. It has existed as long as God has existed, since time eternal past and will exist into time eternal. God cannot be called an eternal being unless time was eternal.

Scripture teaches that eternity is made up of time and that time shall not cease. There is a time and a season for everything done under the sun (Eccl. 3).

God, who created "In the beginning" (Gen. 1:1), who was "In the beginning" (John 1:1), who originally made the sun, moon, and stars, "In the beginning" (Gen. 1:1), made light and night and day to regulate times and seasons in the eternla Universe and the eternal Earth.

The work of day four was the permanent restoration of the solar system in connection with the restored Earth, to divide the day from the night; and to be for signs and for sseasons, and for days and years forever (Gen. 1:14-18). This solar regulation causing eternal time on the Earth is eternal: "They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations . . . .His name shall endure for ever: His name shall be continued as long as the sun" (Ps. 72: 5 and 17); "I have sworn unot David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever . . . . his throne as the days of Heaven . . . . as the sun before me. It shall be established forever as the moon" (Ps. 89:4, 27-37).

God promised Noah that there would be day and night, summer and winter, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, forever on the Earth (Gen. 8:22).

The Earth is eternal; so time made up of seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, and years is also eternal (Eccl. 1:4; Ps. 104:5). When the Bible says "There shall be no lnight there" it speaks of the city, the New Jerusalem, and not the Earth outside of the city (Rev. 21:23-27).

We are in eternity now. As we have seen in the above Scriptures, eternity has always existed for God has always existed from everlasting to everlasting (Ps. 41:13).

"For thus saith the high and lofty ONE that inhabiteth eternity, who's name is Holy . . . "(Isa. 57:15), and eternity will be made up of time as we now know it; so if time continues eternally as it is now, in the sense of being eternal time we are now in eternity. We do not mean by this that we are now in our eternal state, for that will not be true until we enter into immortality (1 Cor. 15:51-58; Phil. 3:20-21). But we can truly say that we are in time that will be eternal and that we are in part of eternity now.

Just what God did in the eternal dateless past no one knows, for He has not revealed His activities from all eternity past (Deut. 29:29). All we know is that God existed from all eternity, and that sometime in the dateless past God brought into being the heavens and the earth and all things originally made therein.

That God existed from all eternity is very clear in Scripture: "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hast formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Ps. 90:2). "Thy throne is established of old; thou art from everlasting" (Ps.93:2; Prov. 8:22-31; Micah 5:2; Heb. 9:14; John 1:1-3; Rev. 1:4-8; 4:8; 22:5, 13).

If God is from the eternal past, which is time past, and God, man, and the Earth will continue into the eternal future, then continued time, which is time from now on into eternity, then we can say time has always existed with God, or there would be no mentioning of time eternal "past."

God is from everlasting to everlasting. Everlasting what?

"EVERLASTING TIME" of course.

[BlindSeeker]

I would basically agree with seekeratthesea . . .

I believe:

1. Time, at least as we perceive it, is part of God's creation.

2. God in His omnipresence is present everywhere all the time . . . all through time at the same time . . . but His existence is independent of and outside of time as our limited perception has attempted to measure it.

3. Time is experienced by humanity on a linear plane, moment by moment, but it is not the same for God. It has been expressed as being more fluid like for God. This would offer an acceptable explanation of how God foreknew us and wrote our names in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world without having to predestined some for hell.

4. The human concept of time travel is an actual full time experience and reality of God in the sense that there is not a moment in our time/history that God does not always witness and experience.

5. When all that has been written in Holy Writ has been fulfilled and all sin and sinners (angelic and human) has been thoroughly purged from God's creation that time as we now perceive it will be no more.

Just an opinion though . . . can't even get a cup of coffee with it.

[traveller]

I would basically agree with seekeratthesea . . .

I believe:

1. Time, at least as we perceive it, is part of God's creation.

2. God in His omnipresence is present everywhere all the time . . . all through time at the same time . . . but His existence is independent of and outside of time as our limited perception has attempted to measure it.

3. Time is experienced by humanity on a linear plane, moment by moment, but it is not the same for God. It has been expressed as being more fluid like for God. This would offer an acceptable explanation of how God foreknew us and wrote our names in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world without having to predestined some for hell.

4. The human concept of time travel is an actual full time experience and reality of God in the sense that there is not a moment in our time/history that God does not always witness and experience.

5. When all that has been written in Holy Writ has been fulfilled and all sin and sinners (angelic and human) has been thoroughly purged from God's creation that time as we now perceive it will be no more.

Just an opinion though . . . can't even get a cup of coffee with it.

I am in agreement with this.

[EricH]

My take is that our argument is not with other believers who have differing views regarding the age of the earth. Our real issue is with non-theists who don't believe in creation

[spiritman]

Blind seeker, I noticed you were on line while I was editing my post so you did not get the full just of it. so I'll repeat what I added when I edited it. H dad admitted that to know when satan fell is speculation. so since most of the gap theory doctrine is based upon the fact that satan fell between verses 1 & 2 of Genesis chapter 1 that pretty much blows the whole gap theory.

I'm familuar with Hugh Ross's theory, and it doesn't hold water.

Who's lying?; Whosever does not tell the truth, the same is a liar right?

You did not edit out the words I was referring to in which you declare your correctness . . . so it still reads the same to me.

If someone shares their beliefs about something and they are mistaken I would not call them a liar . . . would you?

Nobody has mention Hugh Ross . . . what's your point?

I really don't see a problem with anything I've posted, And I don't understand what your getting at. So If you have a point please tell me what it is.

Simple questions is all I asked -

1. If someone shares their beliefs about something and they are mistaken I would not call them a liar . . . would you?

(You answered this somewhat in your post # 51)

2. Nobody has mention Hugh Ross . . . what's your point? . . . why do you mention him?

Hello blindseeker,

I suppose I didn't see your question for what ever reason. 1. 1st off if you re read my post I answered you like this:

You asked me who's a liar? My response was " He who does not tell the truth the same is a liar" At this point of your inquiry I did not accuse any particular person of being a liar.

If you also look at my last post before this one, I summoned it up for everyone. A liar is someone who intentionally lies even though they know the truth. someone who tells a lie when they don't know the truth is decieved, misguided, misinformed, something I also stated recently.

However and here is the tricky part; And I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. Let's say you think I'm 35 years old, and you run around telling everyone, that I'm 35. Well you did it out of ignorance, even though before profession you should have checked it out first, but on with the example; in defintion you are not a liar. However I come up to you, and tell you hey I'm not 35, I'm 46, and you say, that's your opinion, and you continue to run around and say I'm 35 anyway, then since you have been corrected with truth, but you continue in your folly, then you become a liar, and in the case of teaching false doctrine in the bible a false teacher.

The way to refute someone on biblical doctrine, is not to say that's your opinion, the proper and accepted way to do it, is by scripture, like I did H. Dad; I showed him through scripture that 1. The Gap theory contradicts Exodus chapter 20:11 where moses said " In six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth". The Gap theory says that the earth is much older. 2. I showed in the Hebrew how to properly interprete the fact that when you have passages that have the same words in them;

the examples I used were the same ones used by the gap theorists (Jeremiah 4:23, and Genesis 1:2) Where the same words for formless and void, in the Hebrew is tohu (formless), bohu (void); these same words are used in Jeremiah 4:23.

The gap theorists have taken the words and contexts in Jeremiah 4:23; which is speaking about God's judgement on Juda, and they are assuming that it is also used the same way in Genesis 1:2. But; in the same way that the Gap theorists take into account the context of jeremiah 4:23, they also have to take into account the context of genesis 1:2, and they aren't doing it. The context in Genesis 1:2 differs, because it is refering to God's act of creating things not destroying.

This is simular to the example of the english word run used in two different contexts; same word different meaning.

for example: I have a run in my stocking; context is I have in my stocking.

2 example: Let's put on our tennis shoes and go for a run: Context : Let's put on our tennis shoes and go.

So if I were to say to you " I have a run in my stocking" would you interpret it to mean , that I wanted to go for a jog?

No in this case the word Run means a tare, a hole in a stocking right?

Or if I said; " Let's put on our tennis shoes and go for a run; would you intrepet it : that I said I have a run or tare in my stocking? : No of course not.

Same english word Run used but to different meanings . Same greek and hebrew words tohu (formless) bohu (void).

but two different meanings; all because of the context being different, in Genesis 1:2 , and Jeremiah 4:23.

would you agree with this statement, once you know the truth you are responsible for what you do with it.

I have showed H.Dad the truth, it's not my opinon it's scriptural fact. Now when someone and this is concerning Scriptural doctrine is shown the truth, but they ignore you and continue in false doctrine, they are to be excommunicated not defended When you defend someone who is teaching false doctrine, then you are as guilty as he is. Because when someone defends someone who is teaching false doctrine they are giving him their approval, and saying be blessed and continue teaching others the same false doctrine to spread lies.

concerning Hugh Ross: you say you believe in the gap theory, but you don't know who Hugh Ross is? Hugh Ross is a advocate of this theory and defends it aggressively; but as I said before it doesn't hold water.

I hope this makes my position more clear to you, and please think about these things ok.

(edited by moderator)

Peace

Spiritman

[EricH]

The way to refute someone on biblical doctrine, is not to say that's your opinion, the proper and accepted way to do it, is by scripture, like I did H. Dad; I showed him through scripture that 1. The Gap theory contradicts Exodus chapter 20:11 where moses said " In six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth". The Gap theory says that the earth is much older. 2. I showed in the Hebrew how to properly interprete the fact that when you have passages that have the same words in them;

There is actually a difference between Exodus 20:11 and the Genesis passage (in terms of the hebrew). In Genesis 1:1 the word used for create is the Hebrew word barah, meaning to create from nothing. This verb is only used with God as the subject (in other words only God can create from nothing). In Exodus 20:11 the Hebrew word 'asah is used. This word means to fashion out of something that already exists. So this could actually be supportive of the "Gap Theory". God made (barah) the world from nothing in the beginning (Genesis 1:1). The after a gap, he fashioned it ('asah) in 6 days (Exodus 20:11). Obviously the writers saw a difference between the intial creation of earth and its subsequent forming by God because they use two different verbs to describe them.

[psalmone]

God upholds all things by the Word of His power. Genesis is correct. The 6000 years is correct. The Word is what's faithful. The Lamb slain from the before the foundation of the earth is what's faithful and whole the universe was orchestrated to honour His Love.

Science ideally compliment the Lord and serve the earth as they ought. Others are yet to acknowledge the source of their achievement.

It is important to remember that only what is of faith that is substantial, that means the Bible is right and we mustn't be intimidated by scientific speculation, they need to do that until they believe.

Edited July 10, 2008 by psalmone

[EricH]

God upholds all things by the Word of His power. Genesis is correct. The 6000 years is correct. The Word is what's faithful. The Lamb slain from the before the foundation of the earth is what's faithful and whole the universe was orchestrated to honour His Love.

Science ideally compliment the Lord and serve the earth as they ought. Others are yet to acknowledge the source of their achievement.

It is important to remember that only what is of faith that is substantial, that means the Bible is right and we mustn't be intimidated by scientific speculation, they need to do that until they believe.

I think that is the question being discussed. Does the text demand a 6000 year old earth?

[psalmone]

God upholds all things by the Word of His power. Genesis is correct. The 6000 years is correct. The Word is what's faithful. The Lamb slain from the before the foundation of the earth is what's faithful and whole the universe was orchestrated to honour His Love.

Science ideally compliment the Lord and serve the earth as they ought. Others are yet to acknowledge the source of their achievement.

It is important to remember that only what is of faith that is substantial, that means the Bible is right and we mustn't be intimidated by scientific speculation, they need to do that until they believe.

I think that is the question being discussed. Does the text demand a 6000 year old earth?

Yes.