To say Pants are wrong for Women, is it Oppression

[LadyGunivere]

I'm once again happy to be frumpy out in public.....sides the less looks from guys I get the better.

[Scarletprayers]

Thank you. I will say it again, I don't know one single pagan that would care one iota. It's a mute point in the real world. This is strictly a "religious" argument and who wants that? Religion is dead. God is alive. This whole topic has been a real turn off for me. I am having a hard time getting into church. When I get there is this the kind of nonissue that will be discussed?

I don't see what it has to do with Jesus but see it has everything to do with legalistic religion. But, that's just my opinion.

Your absolutely right angelique, it is nothing but legalistic junk religion, and has nothing to do with worshiping God! Any body or group, that tries to make it an issue is trying to "work" their way into heaven!

[Rick-Parker]

I am having a hard time getting into church. When I get there is this the kind of nonissue that will be discussed?

Not all churches. In some churches, it's OK for people to wear casual clothes, even.

The vast majority don't worry about what a person wears.

[soshine]

Hey everyone

Oh yeah, I dare I was trying to get an answer on another thread and I'm not sure if someone actually worded it this way, maybe it was in another thread, etc, but here' my qusetion.... SO open for debate

Why do people say that for people to say that women shoudl not wear pants (becuase they are immodest), it is opppresive? Personally, I think it should be something by conviction, I think it's the work of the Holy Spirit leading and working on your heart (not to say that someone more or less spiritual because they have not been convicted about it), and not that it is in any way oppressive in the sense that people try and say that women are below men... keeping in mind that it is biblical that a woman is not to asurp authority over the man, but why can we not say it's oppression to say that men ahve to wear pants, not skirts, if we can say it's oppression to say that women should wear skirts (dresses, modest), and not pants?

Have fun

You've got to be kidding- this is worth debating- and supposedly because women aren't supposed to usurp authority over men? Sounds like a tempest in a teapot over an out of context biblical quote. For those who consider it immodest for women to wear pants, I must say that I've been "treated" to the fashion choices of young women, coming to church in a dress, alright, but it was obvious that the choice of dress was to attract male attention. One time, thank goodness, an older woman, who was also in a position of authority in our church, took her aside and told her to adjust her clothing to reflect the real reason why we come to church. So many seem to see church as a fashion show. It isn't the choice of pants or a dress that determines immodesty, it is the attitude of the person wearing them. Sexual attraction, pride, having to be "in style" to impress your friends, and other errant attitudes have no place in a gathering whose only purpose is to bring glory to the Lord Jesus Christ.

And just a little sidebar to those who would seem to place Paul above the whole counsel of God- why exactly does the Bible say there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus? Wouldn't that seem to COMPLETELY level the playing field?

Yours in Christ

soshine

[Guest celebratejesus]

I believe the scripture is telling us to be modest, period. I think many pants a woman can wear are very modest. Then, some are not as we all can see just walking through the mall today.

God bless, ysic, denise

PS You are right too about the "personal" conviction of God. I believe followers of Christ will always be alerted if they are "not" being modest according to His Word:)

[Ephesians2-8]

Now I'm wondering just what does that mean anyway?...pertaineth unto a man...since they all wore robes. I'm guessing they all did.

The point God was making was not for men to make themselves appear feminine. In ancient times male prostitution was an act of worship to pagan gods and men who served in that capacity who were homosexual would make themselves appear femine to attract and seduce other male worshippers. There was a much bigger picture than just wearing a type of garment.

Even in biblical times women and men wore "breeches" under their robes. Breeches were similar o pants but would keep one's privates well hidden if the wind caught your robe the wrong way.

Honestly, this is why I hate religion.

Shiloh -- The specific religion was Babylonian, the mystery religion of the goddess Ishtar who had both male and female priestesses serve her temple as harlots/whores who they considered to be holy and pure, and who during a religious sex rite of worship with a worshiper (either male or female) would become 'one with the goddess' and thus the goddess became 'one with the worshipper' in order for the worshipper's sins to be forgiven and purified by sexual secretions. Ishtar's religion invented homosexuality as a means of attaining salvation as also heterosexual union as well... holy sex -- sex by salvation and or salvation by 'works.' Afterwords, the worshipper would give a thanksgiving offering by putting a gold or silver coin or coins into the temple's collection box before leaving. Ishtar's temple invented the concept of money, banking on loans for interest. Her harlot-whore priestesses and the thanksgiving offering was the very first instance of prostitution.

Prostitution as we know it today, did not exist in ancient Babylon nor any other of the ancient cultures. There was no need for it -- the Ishtar Temple took care of that problem.

The prohibitions about men dressing feminine in scripture was to not be mistaken for being an Ishtar devotee. The abomination was Ishtar's religion not a matter of dress, per se for either gender, man or woman. Ditto for the idea of fornication and adultery -- the abominations were when associated with the Ishtar religion.

Oh, Shiloh- you're in good company about hating religion -- God also hates religion - See Isaiah 64 6

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;"

The Hebrew word "Filthy Rags" is the word for used, smells-to-high-heaven" menstrual cloth -- and this is what God thinks of our righteousnesses or our good deeds, or our religious deeds. Imagine what he thinks of our sins. Yup, God hates religion and religion is defined as anything that requires us to 'act a certain way, be a certain way' and by what we do, gain brownie points with God. That is religion. And that negates grace, evertime, as Paul so eloquently stated in Romans and later in Galatians.

I really enjoyed reading your reply. Thanks for educating me.

Willow325

Thank you - glad to be of help

[Guest shiloh357]

Now I'm wondering just what does that mean anyway?...pertaineth unto a man...since they all wore robes. I'm guessing they all did.

The point God was making was not for men to make themselves appear feminine. In ancient times male prostitution was an act of worship to pagan gods and men who served in that capacity who were homosexual would make themselves appear femine to attract and seduce other male worshippers. There was a much bigger picture than just wearing a type of garment.

Even in biblical times women and men wore "breeches" under their robes. Breeches were similar o pants but would keep one's privates well hidden if the wind caught your robe the wrong way.

Honestly, this is why I hate religion.

Shiloh -- The specific religion was Babylonian, the mystery religion of the goddess Ishtar who had both male and female priestesses serve her temple as harlots/whores who they considered to be holy and pure, and who during a religious sex rite of worship with a worshiper (either male or female) would become 'one with the goddess' and thus the goddess became 'one with the worshipper' in order for the worshipper's sins to be forgiven and purified by sexual secretions. Ishtar's religion invented homosexuality as a means of attaining salvation as also heterosexual union as well... holy sex -- sex by salvation and or salvation by 'works.' Afterwords, the worshipper would give a thanksgiving offering by putting a gold or silver coin or coins into the temple's collection box before leaving. Ishtar's temple invented the concept of money, banking on loans for interest. Her harlot-whore priestesses and the thanksgiving offering was the very first instance of prostitution.

Prostitution as we know it today, did not exist in ancient Babylon nor any other of the ancient cultures. There was no need for it -- the Ishtar Temple took care of that problem.

The prohibitions about men dressing feminine in scripture was to not be mistaken for being an Ishtar devotee. The abomination was Ishtar's religion not a matter of dress, per se for either gender, man or woman. Ditto for the idea of fornication and adultery -- the abominations were when associated with the Ishtar religion.

Oh, Shiloh- you're in good company about hating religion -- God also hates religion - See Isaiah 64 6

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;"

The Hebrew word "Filthy Rags" is the word for used, smells-to-high-heaven" menstrual cloth -- and this is what God thinks of our righteousnesses or our good deeds, or our religious deeds. Imagine what he thinks of our sins. Yup, God hates religion and religion is defined as anything that requires us to 'act a certain way, be a certain way' and by what we do, gain brownie points with God. That is religion. And that negates grace, evertime, as Paul so eloquently stated in Romans and later in Galatians.

Right on!!

[yesult]

Why do people say that for people to say that women shoudl not wear pants (becuase they are immodest), it is opppresive?

I think it's because of how closely they cleave to your butt. They really don't tend to leave a lot to your imagination when you bend over. Not a particualarly healthy dynamic. I once asked God to show me what men see when women walk down the street (trying to get some definites on some modesty guidelines.) Suddenly all these butts magically appeared in front of my view. Every where I looked there were female tushies. I never really thought about it or noticed it before then. So now I keep mine covered. If I wear jeans, I'll make sure my top always covers my rear. Bit of a sacrifice but I don't want my husband looking at other womens behinds so I'm not going to show anyone else mine.

Men don't have butts like women so it's different for them.

[Guest lovinghim4ever]

I'm once again happy to be frumpy out in public.....sides the less looks from guys I get the better.

I believe the scripture is telling us to be modest, period. I think many pants a woman can wear are very modest. Then, some are not as we all can see just walking through the mall today.

God bless, ysic, denise

PS You are right too about the "personal" conviction of God. I believe followers of Christ will always be alerted if they are "not" being modest according to His Word:)

Okay, the question I always ask myself in times of uncertainty is this . . . "What does GOD approve of for ME!?"

John 21:21-22, "Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, 'But Lord, what about this man?' Jesus said to him, 'If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow me."

I believe that what may be conviction to one is not necessarily conviction to another; depending on our spiritual growth and maturity. For a very long time when God would convict me of something in my life that He wanted me to change or get rid of I thought He meant that conviction for everyone. And, I would get all judgmental toward those who wouldn't follow the same conviction that God had placed in my heart. Then, I realized that Philippians 2:12 "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" means just that. God deals with us individually, but I don't believe He looks for reasons to punish us. A truly loving parent doesn't look for reasons to punish their children. They look for ways to help their children grow. Sometimes that growth comes through discipline, and I believe God loves us enough to discipline us when we need it. He is not out get us. He is out to help us through His unconditional love!

We must follow our own convictions; even if no one else follows theirs; even if no one else believes what we believe; even if no one else believes that we can hear from God for ourselves. We should pray for those we think are wrong while at the same time keeping an open mind to the possibility that we might be the one who is wrong. If we are convinced we are right, then we need to live that conviction without trying to force it on others. Yes, we are to be concerned for one another, but we should never pass judgment or call names when we don't agree with someone.

I say again everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and their own convictions. Just because God says that something is wrong for me does not automatically make it wrong for everyone else. The key is to have a mature and teachable spirit that is not easily offended. There will always be someone who disagrees, but it is not our job to pass judgment or be offended. It is our responsibility, as Christians, to point out (without a judgmental attitude) what we believe and why, then let God do their convicting and their convincing.

[Gerioke]

Matthew 23

25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.