When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

[Celt]

So, do you read Revelation as "the revelation of the Anti-Christ" rather than "the revelation of Jesus Christ"?

Of course not. As Rev.1:1 states, it's the revelation of Jesus Christ. Our Lord Jesus gave all believers on Him information of events leading up to His second coming, so as to be prepared. God said He tells His people of events before He does them (Isa.42:9). It's because He wants us to be strong in Faith and set an example as His servants.

God's people are still at war today with the devil, in a spiritual war. It began in Genesis and will end in Revelation. To not recognize that is to be deceived. And our Lord's direct Message, and through His Apostles, tells us to be especially sober and spiritually awake towards the end of that war.

[Celt]

In 1 Thess.5 the apostle Paul says to abstain from all appearance of evil. In order to do that one must be able to discern evil. But there are some doctrines of men that try to take that idea to the extreme, saying to essentially blind oneself to anything that is evil. That has created a superstition among some folks, for they seem to think something evil will chase them even if they try to discern it. That kind of teaching is from men, and not from God, for the apostle Paul was very clear about becoming mature in Christ, being able to discern both good and evil (Hebrews 5). He even rebuked some of the brethren because they were still on the "milk" when they ought to be on the "strong meat" of God's Word, becoming teachers.

There is a pacification dogma taught in some Churches today which is telling believers to turn a blind eye to what's going on in the world. That kind of teaching is not from God. All The Bible must be understood as a whole, and not one single verse pulled out of it and a whole doctrine made out of that one verse. But that's how some preachers operate today. The Church I was raised in did not teach end time prophecy at all. They NEVER covered our Lord's Book of Revelation to the congregation. And the only Old Testament study we got was when it was being quoted from within the Gospel Books and Paul's Epistles. They taught only focusing on good works.

Is that kind of Church preparing their congregation to make a stand in Christ during the last days, like our Lord does in His Word? No. Instead, they are prepared to be deceived by the evil one that is coming first. The apostle Paul is clear about remaining "sober" in 1 Thess.5 in connection with the coming of the day of The Lord (when Christ comes). He contrasts those who stay spiritually awake and sober vs. those who sleep in the night, that are drunken in the night. Those type of congregations that aren't getting the warnings our Lord Jesus gave to be watching in the last days are spiritually drunken with their own doctrines.

[nebula]

So, do you read Revelation as "the revelation of the Anti-Christ" rather than "the revelation of Jesus Christ"?

Of course not. As Rev.1:1 states, it's the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So why don't we read Revelation from the perspective of trying to know, understand, and recognize Jesus?

In practically every discussion I have heard on Revelation, everyone seems to be all worried about trying to know, understand, and recognize the Anti-Christ.

Does this make sense?

Our Lord Jesus gave all believers on Him information of events leading up to His second coming, so as to be prepared.

Do you honestly believe that this is His goal?

Why call the revelation "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" and not "the Revelation of the End Times" if that is His goal?

God said He tells His people of events before He does them (Isa.42:9). It's because He wants us to be strong in Faith and set an example as His servants.

Yeah, and how many of His people understood the previous fulfilled prophecies as they happened?

Did anyone understand His death and resurrection before He rose again and clarified everything?

What makes us any better concerning the End of Days?

God's people are still at war today with the devil, in a spiritual war. It began in Genesis and will end in Revelation. To not recognize that is to be deceived. And our Lord's direct Message, and through His Apostles, tells us to be especially sober and spiritually awake towards the end of that war.

Yeah, and it ends when God sends an angel to grab and bind Satan. Pretty simple, huh?

Our battle is not against flesh and blood. So why battle a flesh and blood Anti-Christ instead of focusing on simply living the Gospel and saving souls - all the while keeping our eyes on Jesus?

Like I heard from one song: "What are you looking for the devil for when you ought to be looking for the Lord?"

[Massorite]

I'm going to revert back to my original question on this, but with a twist.

Why are people insisting that the Great Tribulation begins with the Anti-Christ?

You see, when I read the book of Revelation, I see the Tribulation of the End of the End of Days to be a product of and guided by the Lord's hand.

Yet, in discussing the Trib, I see everyone focused on the Evil One and not on the Lord.

Why is that?

Because many Christians will not accept the fact that it is GOD who has put these things in motion and that The Great Tribulation is HIS plan. Therefore, it makes little sense to speak of GOD in the midst of something that you do not attribute to GOD.

It is like the arguement that GOD would not allow HIS people to go through the tribulation because it is a time of "wrath". Yet, if you were in one of the countries where Christians are being killed and imprisoned by the 100,000s, you would certainly not comprehend when people say GOD would not allow that to happen.

Once again, it all happens because it serves GOD's intention and purpose to HIS glory and majesty.

As I see it.

You go kross. I have been pointing out to my brothers and sisters that other Christians parts of the world are suffering horrible persecution by the hundreds of thousand each year. My question is always. Since we are not appointed according to scripture to suffer the wrath of God then what are these modern day martyrs are suffering? But because of the false teachings of people like Hinn, Lahay, Hagee, Impy, and many more. Most Christians can not learn that there is a difference between the wrath of of God and great tribulation. They are not one in the same thing. They are two different events that take place at two different times.

[Massorite]

I focus on the arrival of the antichrist and the tribulation because that is what God teaches us. I know that God is going to be going through the whole thing with me and He says for me not to be taken by surprise or to be deceived by the coming events. I focus on the antichrist, the tribulation, and the building of the new Jewish temple because I know that the sooner these prophecies come to pass the sooner Jesus will be coming take us. I am always focused on God the Father, Jesus the son and the Holy Spirit of God. I am looking forward to the arrival of the antichrist because at that point I will know that my time here on this earth is very short.

So, you keep your eyes on the wind and the waves to get to Jesus rather than keeping your eyes on Jesus?

Noooo! I already have Jesus. I don't need to get to Him at all because He already has me. He is already in every millisecond of my life. Looking forward to the arrival of the antichrist has nothing to do with getting to Jesus. The words "watch therefore" are spoken about 14 times in the new testament and if you will research each and everyone of them you would find that one of those "watch therefore's" are speaking about watching what is going on in the world or as you have said "keep your eyes on the wind and the waves". One thing we are not supposed to do is keep our heads in the sand and since Jesus told us to watch what is going on in the world I consider it to be a commandment. Which means I do it in obedience to the commands of Christ just like all of His other commandments.

[Massorite]

I'm going to revert back to my original question on this, but with a twist.

Why are people insisting that the Great Tribulation begins with the Anti-Christ?

You see, when I read the book of Revelation, I see the Tribulation of the End of the End of Days to be a product of and guided by the Lord's hand.

Yet, in discussing the Trib, I see everyone focused on the Evil One and not on the Lord.

Why is that?

it is allowed by god hence he forwarned us of events that are to take place if we concentrate on the evil side of it it allows us to naturally see when its occurance will arrive its a sign to those who allready believe in christ and his coming for we are allready aware of it, for he comes as a thief in the night blessed is he who watches and is not caught unaware see if we focus on what we cant see without god we would never know so its meant to be that way so all can prepare for his coming

Very good jesta. God put these warnings in His word so we could be as prepared as we can to endure to the end. No surprises.

[kross]

I'm going to revert back to my original question on this, but with a twist.

Why are people insisting that the Great Tribulation begins with the Anti-Christ?

You see, when I read the book of Revelation, I see the Tribulation of the End of the End of Days to be a product of and guided by the Lord's hand.

Yet, in discussing the Trib, I see everyone focused on the Evil One and not on the Lord.

Why is that?

Because many Christians will not accept the fact that it is GOD who has put these things in motion and that The Great Tribulation is HIS plan. Therefore, it makes little sense to speak of GOD in the midst of something that you do not attribute to GOD.

It is like the arguement that GOD would not allow HIS people to go through the tribulation because it is a time of "wrath". Yet, if you were in one of the countries where Christians are being killed and imprisoned by the 100,000s, you would certainly not comprehend when people say GOD would not allow that to happen.

Once again, it all happens because it serves GOD's intention and purpose to HIS glory and majesty.

As I see it.

You go kross. I have been pointing out to my brothers and sisters that other Christians parts of the world are suffering horrible persecution by the hundreds of thousand each year. My question is always. Since we are not appointed according to scripture to suffer the wrath of God then what are these modern day martyrs are suffering? But because of the false teachings of people like Hinn, Lahay, Hagee, Impy, and many more. Most Christians can not learn that there is a difference between the wrath of of God and great tribulation. They are not one in the same thing. They are two different events that take place at two different times.

I sometimes see them as two different things that happen at the same time, or at least overlapping times.

There is the wrath of GOD and there is the wrath of men/the world. We are not under the wrath of GOD, but the world is still more than interested in our destruction.

[nebula]

Noooo! I already have Jesus. I don't need to get to Him at all because He already has me. He is already in every millisecond of my life. Looking forward to the arrival of the antichrist has nothing to do with getting to Jesus. The words "watch therefore" are spoken about 14 times in the new testament and if you will research each and everyone of them you would find that one of those "watch therefore's" are speaking about watching what is going on in the world or as you have said "keep your eyes on the wind and the waves". One thing we are not supposed to do is keep our heads in the sand and since Jesus told us to watch what is going on in the world I consider it to be a commandment. Which means I do it in obedience to the commands of Christ just like all of His other commandments.

Very good jesta. God put these warnings in His word so we could be as prepared as we can to endure to the end. No surprises.

I put these together because the subject of the question that formed in my mind from the first was presented in the next.

What is the pu9rpose of the watching and the preparing?

Is it the Lord's plan to have His people live through the Tribulation for no other reason than to "endure?" I mean, are we to just endure for endurance' sake?

Is that His goal for us?

Is that His purpose for instigating and running the Tribulation?

[Celt]

I put these together because the subject of the question that formed in my mind from the first was presented in the next.

What is the pu9rpose of the watching and the preparing?

Is it the Lord's plan to have His people live through the Tribulation for no other reason than to "endure?" I mean, are we to just endure for endurance' sake?

Is that His goal for us?

Is that His purpose for instigating and running the Tribulation?

So what did our Lord Jesus mean by the following, especially with that warning to "hold fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown"?

Rev 3:10-12

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name.

(KJV)

[givennewname]

What is the pu9rpose of the watching and the preparing?

It is a joyful watching for the return of the Lord as this is when we receve the new ressurected body.

Is it the Lord's plan to have His people live through the Tribulation for no other reason than to "endure?" I mean, are we to just endure for endurance' sake?

Is that His goal for us?

Is that His purpose for instigating and running the Tribulation?

The believers will not be there. so there is no enduring to be done.. The rapture is based on the justification of believers and not earned , simliar to salvation not based on deeds.. one does not earn the rapture.

The purpose of the tribulation is due to the outpouring of God's wrath against evil.. Thats why the believers are not there...