When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

[Celt]

Celt - if you believe that the rider on the white horse is the A-C, you should at least acknowledge that before he comes forth - Jesus first opens the seal that let him loose.

Do you deny this?

The opening of the seven seals is to impart information. The information goes with the events of the seven trumpets. So I don't look at the seals as giving us 'when' the events are let loose on the earth, but merely describing the events that are to occur. If the first seal is about the false messiah, which I believe it is, it cannot happen first, because the seals are also tied to the trumpets. And the sixth trumpet, second woe is when the false one is loosed. In Rev.6:13 on the sixth seal, stars falling from heaven is mentioned. How does that not link to the false one coming?

When Jesus said:

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come." (Matt. 24:42)

Was He telling us to watch for the Deceiver or to watch for Him?

Is that one quoted verse all our Lord gave there at the end of Matthew 24 about His command for us to be on watch? When you want to include the rest of His Message there, then I'll be willing to discuss that point. Actually, I've already covered that point in a previous post.

Is there anyone in the Scriptures who correctly interpreted prophecy who was not called as a prophet nor had a prophetic gift? (For the record, apostles have gifts of all 5 ministries - apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher and evangelist.)

What about the Samaritan woman which Jesus met at the well in Jonn 4, that knew the prophecy that Christ was to come some day, and teach us all things? Even The Gospel Salvation Message was first given by prophecy, and still contains prophecy yet unfilled, like Christ's final coming and the rewards to His servants. So everytime someone preaches The Gospel, they are preaching prophecy too. And if it's per what is written, then The Holy Spirit is present helping that work. The idea that one should have to prove they've been called as a prophet before preaching or teaching God's Word is an attempt by men to shackle God's Truth. I don't think that prophet idea began with you.

Well for one thing, near the end of Revelation it mentions Satan being bound for 1000 years. I would seriously love to hear the evidence these arguers have that Satan has been bound as described.

I don't believe Satan has been bound for that "thousand years" yet, because I haven't seen the events that are written to occur happen yet, and I havent' seen it recorded in history either. So those who think that's already happenned have their event timing wrong, and are not following the Scripture.

Jesus prophesied the blossoming of the fig tree. How was that fulfilled 1900-2000 years ago?

If you refer to the parable of the fig tree that our Lord Jesus gave in conjunction with the seal events in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, then it was not fulfilled 2000 years ago. All the events of that prophecy He gave there He related with that fig tree putting forth leaves. His coming was within those prophecies also. So how could that fig tree prophecy be fulfilled 2000 years ago, for it would have to mean Christ's final coming had to have been history? Some have tried to create a spiritual coming of Christ to try and force a historical meaning with that idea. But a lot of Scripture detailing the events of Christ's coming have to be denied to accept that Christ's coming is past history.

Jesus said His coming would be like lighting coming from the east and being visible to the west. As dramatic as Pentecost was, the lightning description does not fit.

Speaking of Pentecost, this was when the Holy Spirit fell on the believers. It wasn't Jesus' return.

Honestly, do I have to write up a theological dissertation when I can narrow it down to "a + b = c"? Or "a + b" does not equal "c"?

Do I have to quote the Scriptures to you I am drawing from instead of trusting you know the Scriptures enough to know what I am referring to?

About Acts, my specific point was, how do we know Christ's coming did not happen back at that time, or in the days of the Apostles and the establishing of the first Churches? You answered it, because such a thing is not written. However, some Churches today believe that Christ's second coming has already happenned, back in the Apostle's day. They are treating Christ's second coming like a spiritual coming only, and believe we are now in His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20, only that He's ruling from Heaven.

My main point of that question? By discerning The Scriptures, you just discerned a prophecy, by comparing it to a false prophecy. You don't see proof for Christ's second coming in the times of the early Church in Acts because it didn't happen. If I asked you to confirm that even within the rest of the New Testament Books, could you? I assume you could, because you said you were Post-Trib, which group still holds to Christ's coming sometine in the future, after a future tribulation. So even to claim to be Post-Trib means accepting prophetic Scripture that has yet to occur today. Now either you've claimed to be Post-Trib because that's what you discern directly from Scripture for yourself, or you've simply accepted the Post-Trib stance out of blindness. I assume your Post-Trib because of what God's Word says, and by doing that, you are discerning that prophecy for yourself. Thats proves a believer on The Savior Jesus Christ does NOT have to be a prophet to understand prophecies in God's Word.

[nebula]

Celt -

First of all, did you read my post about the hurricane?

Second, I did refer to Scripture; I simply didn't post the quotes of the verses.

Third, what you are proposing about the seals and trumpets and bowls is not an interpretation everyone ascribes to. By the way, would you interpret Genesis 1 the way you have interpreted these (as in, they aren't written in order of actual occurrence.)

Fourth, if the AC is the rider on the white horse, and he is not associated with the other three, how do you explain this verse?

"They [the four horsemen] were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth." (Rev. 6:8)

Fifth - If one were to interpret Jeremiah the way you are interpreting Revelation, then one would claim Jeremiah's purpose was calling on the people to prepare themselves for Babylon's invasion and their captivity, and that the hand of the Lord was not bringing this about.

Regarding the Lord as a mere bystander to world events? Do you truly believe this?

Sixth, I have numerous disagreements with your view of prophecy and the prophetic nature, and debating that would be a thread unto itself. But it doesn't take much interpretation to know prophecies concerning the Messiah declare that "He is coming and will teach us all things." Knowing, however, that He was coming first as the "Suffering Servant" and then returning later as the "Conquering King" was such a hidden mystery that it took Jesus a lot of work to convince His people of even after He rose from the dead. (Do you know of what I am referring, or do I need to post specific Scriptures?)

The witness in my spirit declares that when the Great Tribulation comes upon us, we all will be very surprised at how the events play out. And if I am still alive on planet Earth when it comes, I'm going to be looking for what the Father is doing. Tracking the AC may be a useful tool, but it won't be my food.

[traveller]

Compare the events in Mark 13 our Lord Jesus foretold us with those seven seals. The first warning Christ gave was about deception (Mark 13:5-6). That fits the first seal, the rider on the white horse. But so do the events He gave in Mark 13:14-23 about a pseudo Christ who is to work the main deception, which links to the 6th seal also.

The next warning is in Mark 13:7 about WARS, and rumours of wars. That's about the 2nd seal, which is red, taking peace off the earth.

And the next is Mark 13:8, about FAMINES and troubles, and the "beginning of sorrows". That's the 3rd seal, which a black horse with the rider carrying the balances of commerce.

And the next is Mark 13:8-9 is also about the 3rd and 4th seals, a pale horse who's rider is named "Death" (another title for Satan). And he is given power over a fourth part of the earth, to 'kill' using the 1) sword, 2) with hunger, 3) with death, 4) and beasts. We can see the previous 2nd and 3rd seals still working within this 4th seal. This working is related to the locust army our Lord mentioned in Joel 1 & 2. The working of a real locust in four developing stages is compared to how the locust army works upon the earth to take control over God's people, and their wealth. Per history, there's been four main categories of the enemy's working like a developing locust, through the economic, the educational, the political, and the religious powers.

And in Mark 13:10-13 is about the 5th seal, which is about a Testimony by God's servants, and being persecuted for that Testimony of Jesus Christ, some even to the death.

Then in Mark 13:14-23, Christ begins speaking of the "abomination of desolation", a time of great "affliction" and the pseudo Christ working. That's the 6th seal of Rev.6, and the coming of the rider of the 1st seal with a fake crown. Our Lord's first warning in Mark 13 was about deception, but the main deception doesn't come until this 6th seal event, which are events related to the 6th trumpet. And that pseudo Christ points back to that rider on the first seal, coming to conquer, through spiritual deception.

From Rev.6:14-17 are 7th seal events, which are given in Mark 13:24 forward about Christ's coming after the 6th seal events.

Interesting post. Would you expand on the bolded area a bit more?

[Celt]

Celt -

First of all, did you read my post about the hurricane?

Second, I did refer to Scripture; I simply didn't post the quotes of the verses.

Third, what you are proposing about the seals and trumpets and bowls is not an interpretation everyone ascribes to. By the way, would you interpret Genesis 1 the way you have interpreted these (as in, they aren't written in order of actual occurrence.)

Fourth, if the AC is the rider on the white horse, and he is not associated with the other three, how do you explain this verse?

"They [the four horsemen] were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth." (Rev. 6:8)

Fifth - If one were to interpret Jeremiah the way you are interpreting Revelation, then one would claim Jeremiah's purpose was calling on the people to prepare themselves for Babylon's invasion and their captivity, and that the hand of the Lord was not bringing this about.

No, I didn't read your post about the hurricane, didn't know it was addressed to me. And I really have no intention of reading it.

I don't recall you referring to Scripture in our original discussion. You simply stated you didn't understand why there seems to be so much focus on the antichrist when we should only be focusing on Jesus. And then you inferred that one must be a prophet before they can claim to understand prophecy in God's Word.

The intepretation I gave about a link between the seals and trumpets comes from simple reading of the Scripture, and comparing their associated events. It's pretty elementary, and I'm not the only one aware of comparing the events between the seals and trumpets. So, because you believe it's an idea that not everyone ascribes to, does that mean you think it's not truth because you haven't heard of it? That sounds like what you're saying. Not many know to study our Lord's Olivet Discourse along with the seven seals either, but yet, the links are there as I've shown. Just because a popular idea about The Bible exists, it does not mean it's the Truth. A lot of people believe Eve ate an apple in God's Garden, yet no apple can be found mentioned in that Scripture. Many also believe the serpent in Eden was a literal talking snake too, even when our Lord showed us "that old serpent" is but another title for the devil himself in Revelation 12:9.

It sounds like you're trying to probe me in an attempt to establish some supposed link with some cult leader. That won't work, because anyone who takes time to actually study their Bible will eventually know to look at the events of the seals and trumpets and compare. That's no private teaching of mine, nor of anyone else's that I know of. Now someone who has not studied Revelation for theirself in depth, but has simply relied on popular doctrines of men to interpret it for them, indeed would think that pretty unique I guess. Also, I don't recall mentioning anything about the bowls within that.

I never said the rider of the first seal wasn't associated with the other three horses and seals. It kind of sounds like you're simply keying on the idea of the number of seals and four horseman, and NOT the actual events our Lord Jesus gave within each one. What do you think is more important, understanding the events associated with each seal, or simply knowing there's four horses and riders there?

I don't know where you get off saying that I would not teach how God's Hand was in Judah's Babylon captivity per the Book of Jeremiah. If I were to do what you said, it would mean leaving out of a lot of the Book of Jeremiah, simply skipping much of the Scripture where God is speaking! I'm not in the business of skipping over Scripture, but those who adhere to the popular teachings of men always do that. That's why they have to try and put on a false front to hide the fact that they don't really know their Bible. But they can discuss and write whole books on their pop teachings, which is nothing but running in circles, and never coming to the Truth in God's Word. The idea you have that we don't have need to be watching for the coming of a false one in the last days is one of those pop teachings from men. It's even a mainstay pop teaching among those on the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" doctrine.

Regarding the Lord as a mere bystander to world events? Do you truly believe this?

Sixth, I have numerous disagreements with your view of prophecy and the prophetic nature, and debating that would be a thread unto itself. But it doesn't take much interpretation to know prophecies concerning the Messiah declare that "He is coming and will teach us all things." Knowing, however, that He was coming first as the "Suffering Servant" and then returning later as the "Conquering King" was such a hidden mystery that it took Jesus a lot of work to convince His people of even after He rose from the dead. (Do you know of what I am referring, or do I need to post specific Scriptures?)

I don't know what you mean with The LORD being a "bystander to world events". You'll have to be more specific.

It doesn't matter if you disagree with me or not. What matters is whether or not it's God's Truth in His Word. And so far, you haven't disproven within The Word where I've been wrong if that's so.

Well, we could talk about the prophecy of the end of this world, how it is to come to pass. But that would cover many Scriptures, because there are many Scriptures written about it. But does that mean someone must be a prophet to understand it? No. The Holy Spirit is needed, yes, but not the false assumption that one must be a prophet like you said. Again, that's a vain attempt at shackling God's simple Truths written in His Word. For those that ask and knock on the door, He will give them to understand, if they become His disciples like He said. And the whole idea about the Book of Revelation means to lay bear, to open, to reveal. So it's not supposed to be a 'mystery' to Christ's servants.

The witness in my spirit declares that when the Great Tribulation comes upon us, we all will be very surprised at how the events play out. And if I am still alive on planet Earth when it comes, I'm going to be looking for what the Father is doing. Tracking the AC may be a useful tool, but it won't be my food.

You're not arguing with me on that point; you're arguing with what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles said in His Word for His servants to be watching in the last days, and not let any man deceive us. I can guarantee this, those who do remain spiritually sober and on watch certainly will NOT be surprised at how the "great tribulation" events play out. I say that with authority, because it's well written of in God's Word. Whatever "spirit" you're listening to about that, it can't be from God, because any idea of not watching against deception for the last days is the opposite of what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles told us to be doing as written. If you think you can somehow win that argument with debate, then that reveals all the more how you're deceived about it.

[Celt]

Interesting post. Would you expand on the bolded area a bit more?

I assume you're asking how the 'locust' metaphor our Lord gave back in the Book of Joel and in Rev.9 relates to the overtaking of God's people in the last days? I'm going to assume you've covered the Book of Joel, and Rev.9.

In the Book of Joel, our Lord used a locust metaphor of how the historical kings of Assyria and Babylon would devour His people, similar to how real locusts work upon the earth. Some believe Joel was speaking of four different types of locusts, but I believe it means the four developing stages of a locust, with the next stage devouring what the previous stage left (Joel 1:4).

In Rev.9, the locust idea is linked back to Joel 1:6 with teeth like a lion, and with verses like Joel 2:4-5 about chariots and horsemen. So when studying about the locusts in Rev.9, the Book of Joel serves as a further detail of their description and working.

In Joel 1:6, we are told the locusts represent "a nation", "a great people and strong", an army coming out of the northern quarters in Joel 2. In Joel 2:9, we are shown how the locusts even climb in through the windows like 'thief'. They eat up the land, and even strip the bark off the tree making it white. The meat and drink offerring is withheld, pointing to houses of worship being made waste (refers to historical destruction of the Temple). They are also references for how the locusts of Rev.9 in the last days will work upon God's people.

In Joel 2 our Lord mentions the "day of The LORD" idea, and at the end of Joel 2 He connects the "day of The LORD" with the time of His final coming. Joel 3 refers to the events of the battle of Armageddon. In other words, there's Scripture there pointing to the end time "day of The LORD" events Christ's Apostles mentioned.

If we look at this from a history standpoint from just the last 100 years, how is the taking of our lands, and our wealth, our power of rule, and our places of worship being removed from God's people today? Through four main categories of world control, the economic, the political, the educational, and the religious. Those represent the working of locusts upon the earth to devour God's people in the last days. Globalism is what it's about, control of those four categories in the hands of the few, gaining central control over all nations upon the earth. The very last working to be completed is that of the religious, which will happen with the coming of antichrist, or more specifically, 'a pseudo Christ' (per Matt.24:24 with the Greek word 'pseudochristos'). In essence, that's what the kings of Assyria and Babylon did upon God's people in the past. A beast kingdom represented even then a centralized control over the nations in those four categories. But the last beast system per the Book of Daniel, is to be more diverse, and completely over all nations of the earth.

Rev 9:17-19

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

(KJV)

On their heads were as it were crowns of gold (Rev.9:7). Note their power is "in their mouth", and those killed was by what issued out of their mouths. What comes out of the mouth? Words. It's about deception, for that was the main warnings our Lord and His Apostles gave for the end time events. The apostle Paul even spoke of the "strong delusion" in 2 Thess.2 in comparison to the working of the antichrist. What kind of death does deceptive lies bring? Spiritual death.

So that locust army is especially about the working of deception upon the earth, and they have a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit, i.e., the devil. In Rev.9:4-5, we are told they are not allowed to hurt any green thing nor tree, nor kill, but to sting only those men not sealed with God's sealing, for five months. So those preaching about this locust army being some great military machine unleashed upon the earth is not the real meaning. God simply compared how their strength of working is like an army, not that they are a literal military army. This particular battle is in the spiritual arena dealing with deception.

[traveller]

Interesting post. Would you expand on the bolded area a bit more?

I assume you're asking how the 'locust' metaphor our Lord gave back in the Book of Joel and in Rev.9 relates to the overtaking of God's people in the last days? I'm going to assume you've covered the Book of Joel, and Rev.9.

In the Book of Joel, our Lord used a locust metaphor of how the historical kings of Assyria and Babylon would devour His people, similar to how real locusts work upon the earth. Some believe Joel was speaking of four different types of locusts, but I believe it means the four developing stages of a locust, with the next stage devouring what the previous stage left (Joel 1:4).

In Rev.9, the locust idea is linked back to Joel 1:6 with teeth like a lion, and with verses like Joel 2:4-5 about chariots and horsemen. So when studying about the locusts in Rev.9, the Book of Joel serves as a further detail of their description and working.

In Joel 1:6, we are told the locusts represent "a nation", "a great people and strong", an army coming out of the northern quarters in Joel 2. In Joel 2:9, we are shown how the locusts even climb in through the windows like 'thief'. They eat up the land, and even strip the bark off the tree making it white. The meat and drink offerring is withheld, pointing to houses of worship being made waste (refers to historical destruction of the Temple). They are also references for how the locusts of Rev.9 in the last days will work upon God's people.

In Joel 2 our Lord mentions the "day of The LORD" idea, and at the end of Joel 2 He connects the "day of The LORD" with the time of His final coming. Joel 3 refers to the events of the battle of Armageddon. In other words, there's Scripture there pointing to the end time "day of The LORD" events Christ's Apostles mentioned.

If we look at this from a history standpoint from just the last 100 years, how is the taking of our lands, and our wealth, our power of rule, and our places of worship being removed from God's people today? Through four main categories of world control, the economic, the political, the educational, and the religious. Those represent the working of locusts upon the earth to devour God's people in the last days. Globalism is what it's about, control of those four categories in the hands of the few, gaining central control over all nations upon the earth. The very last working to be completed is that of the religious, which will happen with the coming of antichrist, or more specifically, 'a pseudo Christ' (per Matt.24:24 with the Greek word 'pseudochristos'). In essence, that's what the kings of Assyria and Babylon did upon God's people in the past. A beast kingdom represented even then a centralized control over the nations in those four categories. But the last beast system per the Book of Daniel, is to be more diverse, and completely over all nations of the earth.

Rev 9:17-19

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

(KJV)

On their heads were as it were crowns of gold (Rev.9:7). Note their power is "in their mouth", and those killed was by what issued out of their mouths. What comes out of the mouth? Words. It's about deception, for that was the main warnings our Lord and His Apostles gave for the end time events. The apostle Paul even spoke of the "strong delusion" in 2 Thess.2 in comparison to the working of the antichrist. What kind of death does deceptive lies bring? Spiritual death.

So that locust army is especially about the working of deception upon the earth, and they have a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit, i.e., the devil. In Rev.9:4-5, we are told they are not allowed to hurt any green thing nor tree, nor kill, but to sting only those men not sealed with God's sealing, for five months. So those preaching about this locust army being some great military machine unleashed upon the earth is not the real meaning. God simply compared how their strength of working is like an army, not that they are a literal military army. This particular battle is in the spiritual arena dealing with deception.

Thank you, brother.

[nebula]

No, I didn't read your post about the hurricane, didn't know it was addressed to me. And I really have no intention of reading it.

Well, that tells me a lot. . . .

[stevehut]

Why is this important?

[Guest not_telling]

Ummm.... you guys seem to think all prophecy is about the future. Try reading "I saw heaven opened" by Wilcox. He explains Revelation well. Read it without the assumptions of Pre-, Post, or A- millenialism.

Also..

1. Obama is not the Anti-Christ.

2. Nowhere in biblical prophecy is world government described.

3. Israel is no more significant than any other nation. It's re-establishment is not a precondition for the return of Christ or anything else in prophecy.

4. Stop concentrating on what is going to happen in the future and get on with being a christian NOW. Stop going on about Armageddon and start talking about Christ and the cross.

[OneLight]

Ummm.... you guys seem to think all prophecy is about the future. Try reading "I saw heaven opened" by Wilcox. He explains Revelation well. Read it without the assumptions of Pre-, Post, or A- millenialism.

Also..

1. Obama is not the Anti-Christ.

2. Nowhere in biblical prophecy is world government described.

3. Israel is no more significant than any other nation. It's re-establishment is not a precondition for the return of Christ or anything else in prophecy.

4. Stop concentrating on what is going to happen in the future and get on with being a christian NOW. Stop going on about Armageddon and start talking about Christ and the cross.

One quarter of scripture, at the time of it's written, was prophetic. Would you of told the people before Jesus time not to learn about Jesus' coming, but to just live for the day?