I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

[mrs]

Floating you did not respond to my other post.

And how dare you say that God will not override the will of his creatures? What nonsense is this anyway? You seriously think that the sovereign God of the univese bows to the prideful , willful choices of His own creatures??

What the Bible does say is that God commands the willful to repent, and warns of the consequences if they do not. Then He draws His elect and they come to Christ and He raises them up at the last day.(John 6) Unquestionably the Word says that all men love darkness rather than light and will not draw near to God unless He changes their heart i.e. salvation.

It is extremely offensive to me that mere humans say their will can override that of God's. I gave you a list of things God did which overrode the original decisions of those humans and you didn't have much of a response did you?

I am done with this thread.

[Floatingaxe]

You, of all posters, demand scripture and then when it is given, you boldly refute it.

yes, me of all poster will repsond when scripture is misused. If you think I am wrong then tell me where I have went wrong like I did with you.

statements like this do no one any good.

Like you did with me, eh? LOL

[Floatingaxe]

Like you did with me, eh? LOL

yes, Like I did. I took the verses and showed them in proper context. you have a very bad habit on this forum of taking one verse out of context and using it to support a doctrine that is not in the Bible as a whole

That is false. Stop talking to me and talk to the subject.

[Ovedya]

Quoting Ovedya - When we are joined to the Lord we become a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15), sons of God according to the divine nature (Gal. 4:16), and joint heirs with Christ according to the promise of Abraham (Rom. 8:17; Gal. 4:7; Titus 3:7; Gal. 3:29; 4:28; Eph. 3:6; Heb. 11:9).

Question - Where in the verses you quoted above does it say because we are a new creation that we are joint heirs with Christ. To me there is a special qualification to becoming a joint heir with Christ that you seem to have omitted.

We are joint heirs with Christ by virtue of our sonship. We are sons of God by virtue of our sharing the same life in the Spirit. As sons of God we are also members of the new creation. There is no special qualification for our inheritance, only that we are sons of God.

Thanks for replying

I will paste Romans 8:17, "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God (All children are heirs of God), and joint-heirs (This does not say all children of God are joint heirs - There is a condition) with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him (There is going to be a vast difference in reigning with Christ as a joint heir and being a servant that the great multitude in Rev. 7 will be): if we deny him, he also will deny us. What will He deny us? If we do not allow Him to lead us even unto suffering (This can also be enduring with Him), He will deny us the right to reign with Him as a joint heir.

I don't understand what you are arguing, Larry. Are you saying that we have to suffer in order to reign with Christ. or that if we don't suffer we won't reign or receive our inheritance?

What about Galatians 4:7? There is no condition there at all.

[Ovedya]

As far as you calvinistic teaching of predestination with out the freedom for all to choose or reject Christ on their own accord, I reject from the outset so any argument you use from that angle is useless against me.

Then logically any argument you use against those who believe in predestination would also be useless.

Stalemate.

So why bother wasting the energy?

[Jeremiah Joel]

RunningGator

I know that we have spoken about this personally between ourselves, because of a closed thread. For the sake of the others on this particular thread I will respond. You had responded to Ezekiel33 in reference to Romans 8.

''There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus''

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no more condemnation to the that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

Hyper Grace teachers say that this means once you get saved you cannot be condemned for anything you do. Yet they leave out the condition of this promise. The condition is walking in the Spirit and not the flesh. Those that walk in the Spirit will not sin therefore they indeed will not be condemned. We can see just how perverse the teaching of Hyper Grace is when you read the entire passage Romans 8:1-8 in context,

Romans 8:1-8

1 There is therefore now no more condemnation to the that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through our flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be Spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law God nor can it be.

8 So they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The whole purpose of this passage is to explain that we must not continue to be led by our own flesh, lust, and desire. But that we have to let the Spirit of God lead us into the freedom from sin that he sent his Son to give us. Yet there are those that would use 1/2 of one scripture to say just the opposite. If that is not inspired by Satan, then nothing is.

then we are all doomed, because according to your view if we sin we are not walking in the spirit.

I John 1 tells us this...

6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

If what you say is correct, then we either are all doomed because we all sin, or Jesus is a liar. WHICH IS IT?

The point that John was making in speaking in I Jn 1:6-10 is the fact that this flesh is the problem just as in Romans 7. Yes my flesh is capable of the most vile acts of sin, which I am aware of. I then through prayer call on the name of the Lord to deliver me from this vile flesh and its lust (Rm 7:22-25) and thereby have the victory over this flesh and thereby sin. I am not in the flesh but in the Spirit (Rm 8:9-10)

The point of I Jn 1:6-10 is not that we cannot stop from sin, but just the opposite: For the very next verse says: I Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have a advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous.

It is not something that I under my own power that I can do. It is ONLY through the power of the Holy Ghost that I can overcome sin. It is Christ in me the hope of glory.

It is the only way that we can fulfill:

1 Pe 2:21-22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

We of ourselves cannot stop sin and fulfill the calling to be without sin or guile (I Pet 2:21-22). The work of Christ is not only about a man 2,000 or so years ago. It is also about right now... Christ in us the hope of glory.

Jeremiah

Edited September 10, 2008 by Jeremiah Joel

[Ovedya]

As far as you calvinistic teaching of predestination with out the freedom for all to choose or reject Christ on their own accord, I reject from the outset so any argument you use from that angle is useless against me.

Then logically any argument you use against those who believe in predestination would also be useless.

Stalemate.

So why bother wasting the energy?

I am talking to mainly Fa and Gator they are both free will believers.

That is their choice.

[EricH]

So, if all admit up front that they are not open to other points of view, what is the point of the discussion. It simply becomes arguing back and forth

[EricH]

So, if all admit up front that they are not open to other points of view, what is the point of the discussion. It simply becomes arguing back and forth

I am open to other point of views just not ALL other point of view. The point of view that the chosen our going to be saved and the unchosen cannot be I am not open to that point of view. I believe we all have the same opportunity to either receive or reject salvation.

I take a different approach. I know what I believe, but am always open to the possibility that I have misunderstood the passages. So I want my position challenged, and I really want to understand the way people who disagree with me think. The times I have grown most are when I have had honest dialogue with people who hold different positions than I do. Simply because I am convinced I am right, does not mean that I am right

[kross]

This is what I know. I gave GOD my life. It is no longer mine. I have prayed many times that HE not let me out of HIS hand.

I trust HIM because HE is faithful even when I am faithless. If I had to rely on my own strength to stay in HIS hand, I would not. But, HE has promised to keep me and has given me the HOLY SPIRIT as HIS seal.

If there are those who can be in JESUS and then not be in JESUS, I feel sorry for them. They have no promise to lean on. No trustworthy GOD to keep them.

I am greatful to GOD everyday that HE will never let me go. I do not serve HIM out of fear of being lost. I serve HIM out of love and apreciation for HIS promise to keep me and present me spotless before the throne. I tell others about HIM and HIS faithfulness to keep them and present them as well. HE has the power and has promised to use it to make them stand.

Now unto HIM who is able to keep me from stumbling and to present me faultless before the presence of HIS glory with exceeding joy, to GOD my savior, who alone is wise, be all glory forever and ever. AMEN