oneness vs trinity

[Rick-Parker]

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

So you think what I believe id foolishness??????

I could say the same of you and my belief. That you do not understand it or think it is foolishness because you do not have spiritual discernment, and then you you say it back to me, and so on and so on and so on. It proves or disproves nothing.

How can you say that someone who've you have never met does "not have spiritual discernment"? The same could be said of you. Quite the gall from someone so arrogant as you seem to be, EZ33.

[traveller]

Let's keep the focus on the topic, please.

[traveller]

Jesus has always been. He was with God in Creation. "Let US Create man in OUR image. No, it wasn't Gabriel. That is a myth. We were not created in an archangel's image. We were created in the likeness of God, the Father, Son, and Holt Spirit.

This is not refutable.

John 1:1-5

1 In the beginning the Word already existed.

The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

2 He existed in the beginning with God.

3 God created everything through him,

and nothing was created except through him.

4 The Word gave life to everything that was created,

and his life brought light to everyone.

5 The light shines in the darkness,

and the darkness can never extinguish it.

(Repost form another thread)

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This is an interesting verse that I have contemplated many times. The very phrase in the beginning signifies to me something significant . . . especially when considering the concept of eternity which doesn

[BlindSeeker]

Interesting, William.

I have always thought In the beginning to mean what we could understand the beginning of time (earthly) to be. I have never given thought to what was before that.

Thank you Traveller for bumping the post.

I was hoping it would be considered by Floatingaxe and everyone else . . . and hopefully generate some feedback.

Peace.

[HAZARD]

(Matt. 7:21; 10:32-33; 11:27; 15:13; 16:17; 18:10, 19, 35; 19:17; 20:23; 24:36; 25:34; 26:29, 39, 42, 53; Luke 2:49; John 5:17, 43; 6:32, 65; 8:19, 28, 38, 49, 54; 10:17-18, 25, 29, 30, 32, 37; 12:26-28; 14:7, 12, 20, 21, 28; 15:1, 8, 10, 4, 23; 16:23-26; 18:11; 20:17, 21; Rev. 1;1; 2:27; 3:5, 12; 5:1-7, 13; 7:9, 15-16; 10:6; 11:15; 12:10; 21:10; 21:22-23; 22:1-5.

I gave 80 Scriptures showing Jesus and God the Father are not omnibody. You as usual give none to show the above Scriptures false?

Anyone can put a list of scriptures down that means nothing to me. Here is a verse that proves your meaningless list wrong.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Hi 'ezekiel33'

They sure are one, they are one "In UNITY" not body. No Scriptures are meaningless. One has to get into the meat of the doctrin and not just believe what everyone thinks is the norm. Jesus said we should "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39). Its the Scriptures which testify of Him, not what fundamental Christianity teaches, or what men think they teach. Anyone can put up anything, thats for sure but not everyone gets to grips with all the Scriptures on a particular doctrin. Most just quote one or two and they hang all they have on them disregarding all the others either deliberately or because theydo not know them all. And thats ok, as we are all learning, me included.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" (1 John 5:7). This proves them to be three separate persons or they could not be three witnesses. Three persons cannot be one except in unity. One person cannot be three persons or three persons cannot be one person in any sense. Any number above one implies plurality, and any number of persons can be one in unity.

It is three witnesses for bearing witness to the Sonship of Jesus is the whole subject of 1 John 5:5-11, 13, 20.

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are" (John 17:11);

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me" (John 17:21-23).

Notice the disciples were many but Jesus asked the Father to keep them "one" as He and the Father were, One in unity. None of the disciples were inside each other or one another and Jesus never asked the Father to do this.

Both God and man demand more than one witness to confirm truth. Any set of three witnesses could not be just three parts of one person for this would not be accepted in any court and would not meet the demands of God Himself, but they must be three separate persons to confirm anything.

Now read this mate,

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one" (1 John 5:8). He definately said there were three separate persons and two separate things that bare witness in both Heaven and Earth. The Spirit bears witness in both places. In addition to two or three witnesses in any court there can be any number of things shown to confirm the testimony of the persons who are witnesses in the case. So here in addition to the Three Persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost), the "water" and the "blood" confirm the witness of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, that Jesus was and is the Son of God with a flesh body to atone for sin and fully redeem man to the Father.

There are three witnesses and two things that witness in Heaven and Earth to His Sonship:

The Father (one person, who begat the Son),

The Word (the Son, who was begotten, John 1:1-2, 14, 18; 3:16-18),

The Holy Ghost (a third person who bares witness in both Heaven and Earth and who was the actual power of begetting, Luke 1:32-35; Matt. 1:18-25); t

The water (referring to the water baptism of Christ when witness was given to Him by the Father speaking of Him from Heaven and the Spirit from Heaven descending upon the Son, Matt.3:16-17; John 1:31-34; 1 John 5:6, 9), and the blood (which was shed to seal and witness the New Testament, Matt. 26:28).

The phrases "THESE THREE ARE ONE" and "THESE THREE AGREE IN ONE" mean the same thing as seen by like expressions in Scripture. In both cases the "THREE" are "ONE" in unity, or to one point; that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and not the Father or the Holy Ghost.

[HAZARD]

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and not the Father or the Holy Ghost.

This is your opinion and I disagree with it.

Its not my opinion, Its written in the Scriptures, Just read them. You could not possibly looked up all the Scriptures I provided supporting what is being said in a few minuets?

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one" (1 John 5:8). He definately said there were three separate persons and two separate things that bare witness in both Heaven and Earth. The Spirit bears witness in both places. In addition to two or three witnesses in any court there can be any number of things shown to confirm the testimony of the persons who are witnesses in the case. So here in addition to the Three Persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost), the "water" and the "blood" confirm the witness of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, that Jesus was and is the Son of God with a flesh body to atone for sin and fully redeem man to the Father.

There are three witnesses and two things that witness in Heaven and Earth to His Sonship:

The Father (one person, who begat the Son),

The Word (the Son, who was begotten, John 1:1-2, 14, 18; 3:16-18),

The Holy Ghost (a third person who bares witness in both Heaven and Earth and who was the actual power of begetting, Luke 1:32-35; Matt. 1:18-25); t

The water (referring to the water baptism of Christ when witness was given to Him by the Father speaking of Him from Heaven and the Spirit from Heaven descending upon the Son, Matt.3:16-17; John 1:31-34; 1 John 5:6, 9), and the blood (which was shed to seal and witness the New Testament, Matt. 26:28).

The phrases "THESE THREE ARE ONE" and "THESE THREE AGREE IN ONE" mean the same thing as seen by like expressions in Scripture. In both cases the "THREE" are "ONE" in unity, or to one point; that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and not the Father or the Holy Ghost.

Agree or not, thats your right, but one cannot deny what the Scriptures state.

[Floatingaxe]

Genesis 17:1

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty."

That was Jesus, the Word who has been froever with God.

And what causes you to believe that when ''God'' appeared to Abraham that was Jesus or ''God the Son'' and not simply God?

At best that is your opinion, not proof of any doctrine.

I believe that every time God is said to have appeared to men, it was Jesus, pre-incarnate, as in Melchizedek ("He was priest of God Most High"). The Lord doesn't correct me on it, so I will continue to believe it. It doesn't interfere at all with how the Word of God presents Jesus as God incarnate. In fact, it has been the right thing to believe.

I realize that is what you believe and I know that others believe this as well, what I do not know is what would cause someone to come to this conclusion.

What causes it? The reading of the Word with the open heart which then the Holy Spirit is able to teach.

[Floatingaxe]

Genesis 17:1

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty."

That was Jesus, the Word who has been froever with God.

And what causes you to believe that when ''God'' appeared to Abraham that was Jesus or ''God the Son'' and not simply God?

At best that is your opinion, not proof of any doctrine.

I believe that every time God is said to have appeared to men, it was Jesus, pre-incarnate, as in Melchizedek ("He was priest of God Most High"). The Lord doesn't correct me on it, so I will continue to believe it. It doesn't interfere at all with how the Word of God presents Jesus as God incarnate. In fact, it has been the right thing to believe.

I realize that is what you believe and I know that others believe this as well, what I do not know is what would cause someone to come to this conclusion.

What causes it? The reading of the Word with the open heart which then the Holy Spirit is able to teach.

Ohhh so people who believe when the bible says God it actually means God rather than just assuming that this must be a pre-incarnate Christ, have a closed mind and do not want to be led by the Spirit this is laughable. Believing the bible as it is written instead of crating beliefs from nowhere is the correct thing to do not closed mindedness.

As God the Father is Spirit, when He showed up in person, it was in what? The FLESH. Jesus is God in the FLESH. Common sense is good as well as spiritual discernment.

John 4:24

For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”

[BlindSeeker]

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" (1 John 5:7). This proves them to be three separate persons or they could not be three witnesses. Three persons cannot be one except in unity. One person cannot be three persons or three persons cannot be one person in any sense. Any number above one implies plurality, and any number of persons can be one in unity.

It is three witnesses for bearing witness to the Sonship of Jesus is the whole subject of 1 John 5:5-11, 13, 20.

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are" (John 17:11);

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me" (John 17:21-23).

Notice the disciples were many but Jesus asked the Father to keep them "one" as He and the Father were, One in unity. None of the disciples were inside each other or one another and Jesus never asked the Father to do this.

Both God and man demand more than one witness to confirm truth. Any set of three witnesses could not be just three parts of one person for this would not be accepted in any court and would not meet the demands of God Himself, but they must be three separate persons to confirm anything.

Now read this mate,

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one" (1 John 5:8). He definately said there were three separate persons and two separate things that bare witness in both Heaven and Earth. The Spirit bears witness in both places. In addition to two or three witnesses in any court there can be any number of things shown to confirm the testimony of the persons who are witnesses in the case. So here in addition to the Three Persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost), the "water" and the "blood" confirm the witness of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, that Jesus was and is the Son of God with a flesh body to atone for sin and fully redeem man to the Father.

There are three witnesses and two things that witness in Heaven and Earth to His Sonship:

The Father (one person, who begat the Son),

The Word (the Son, who was begotten, John 1:1-2, 14, 18; 3:16-18),

The Holy Ghost (a third person who bares witness in both Heaven and Earth and who was the actual power of begetting, Luke 1:32-35; Matt. 1:18-25); t

The water (referring to the water baptism of Christ when witness was given to Him by the Father speaking of Him from Heaven and the Spirit from Heaven descending upon the Son, Matt.3:16-17; John 1:31-34; 1 John 5:6, 9), and the blood (which was shed to seal and witness the New Testament, Matt. 26:28).

The phrases "THESE THREE ARE ONE" and "THESE THREE AGREE IN ONE" mean the same thing as seen by like expressions in Scripture. In both cases the "THREE" are "ONE" in unity, or to one point; that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and not the Father or the Holy Ghost.

I'm not sure why I am posting since my posts seem to be completely ignored, but . . .

You may want to look into the verse . . .

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Adam Clarke's Commentary:

Verse 7. There are three that bear record] The FATHER, who bears testimony to his Son; the WORD or logov, Logos, who bears testimony to the Father; and the HOLY GHOST, which bears testimony to the Father and the Son. And these three are one in essence, and agree in the one testimony, that Jesus came to die for, and give life to, the world.

But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every MS. of this epistle written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve.

It is wanting in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, AEthiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, &c., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the Vulgate; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin.

Link to commentary

[Floatingaxe]

What causes it? The reading of the Word with the open heart which then the Holy Spirit is able to teach.

any specific passages from the Bible that lead to your conclusion or is it just a feeling you got from the Holy Spirit?

Instruction from the Holy Spirit is more than a feeling. You should know that...???? Your condescension noted.