What is atheism?

[Believer1997]

I can only relate my belief system to 'choosing consciously'. It's why I was wondering how you come to believe things - I can't think of a 'belief' I have that wasn't made with conscious effort and exposure to theories, reflection, association, etc.

But that wouldn't be true of children

[OneLight]

Are you saying that you did not think about this at all...

No. I am admitting I was full of doubt. I remember I was also full of fear for the consequence of not choosing God. I was afraid of Hell. I was doubting God's existence but I was not convinced I was right in making that choice. I was rife with uncertainty, but I wasn't thinking about any of that at the time.

... but that it just happened without the use of your thought process?

Yes. That is how the final break came

[OneLight]

Yes, having no belief in God is a belief in itself. You believe God does not exist.

And what has that got to do with anything? It's not relevant to my insistence that the final break with God was not a conscious decision on my part.

However, if you want to talk about this as separate matter I will point out that I don't believe in tooth fairies. I guess that means to you that I have a belief regarding tooth fairies. I also don't believe in Disney's dancing teapots, so does that tell me I have some belief regarding dancing tea pots. You see OneLight, with everything you can imagine that you and I don't believe in you must then say, "See, you have a negative belief in (fill in the blank), but it's still a belief." And I say, so what? Belief as your using it, in the negative, is only a matter of symantics, it possess no meaning; none that I can see.

Romans 1:20-21 states clearly "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen...

A false observation. This was written by a believer, who of course to whom it all seems so obvious. If it really was obvious do you think there would be so many non-believers? I can tell you, and you must believe me, I see no obvious signs of God at all. That doesn't preclude you seeing signs everywhere you look, but if you are to understand why so many doubt, you must understand that for us the attributes of God are truly invisible.

If you have no faith in Him, ask Him for the faith you need.

Are there any ancient gods or goddesses that you believe were imaginary? Could you turn to one of them now and in all seriousness ask that deity for the faith you need to believe? That would be an absurd request, would it not, and not because you believe in God, but specifically because you believe the other deity imaginary. Yet Christians repeatedly expect those who have lost their belief to do just that: appeal to something they think imaginary. You see the difficulty in that?

This request, however, was not so absurd in ancient times when many believed, if not in the god of the Jews, then in the gods of the pagans. It was far more likely that Christians and non-Christians believed in other gods and it was really only a matter of changing allegiances. Yet Christians take this passage and offer it to atheists, not realizing it lacks relevance for that group.

What does having a belief have to do with this? Everything. As mentioned above, you did make a decision to not believe in God. Tell me one time where you all of a sudden found yourself accepting anything as true or false without first thinking upon it. Nobody can. To say they have only points that they do not understand how they came upon that belief or decision.

Romans 1:20-21 is not a false observation, but 100% pure truth. Any falseness that may arrive from it is to not accept it as the truth. Yes, sadly to say, there are many who choose not to believe, but that is not the fault of His words, nor of those who bring His words to others. It is the denial by the person who chooses not to believe. What do you think Jesus meant when He said in Matthew 7:13-14

[Guest yod]

Haven't followed the conversation at all so please excuse me for the drive-by comments.

As a former atheist, I know that this was a convenient "religion" for me. It helped me avoid all questions of morality and allowed me to do as I wanted without guilt.

Agnostics are just gutless atheists. They are too lukewarm to make a decision either way.

sorry to interrupt....you may now return to your regularly scheduled arguement

[Believer1997]

Hitchey....

The Truth, you say? I shall never understand why people who have no belief in God continually choose to debate with Christians. It seems to me a fruitless venture. No one who has found the Love of God and Salvation of Jesus will ever give up the Peace that only comes with acceptance. So, I am left to wonder if perhaps you are here to do research and console yourselves that you have, indeed, made the right choice. Perhaps you feel the need to continually poke and probe and look for a glimpse of something that will help you shore up your confidence in your non-beliefs of God. Your continual attempts to scrutinize every word and dissect each phrase in what seems to be an almost desperate attempt at finding something that confirms for you that you are right and have made the ultimate discovery. My friend, God is real and does exist... attempting to connect His significance with that of the Tooth Fairy and Santa is weak and pathetic.

I have, as a Christian, Peace and contentment in knowing that when this life ends and my frail heart ceases to beat - my soul and spirit will be absorbed into Heaven and I will be with My God. I will not be hurled into a black hole of emptiness and vapor - I will sit at the table of my Awesome God and dwell with Him.

2 Corinthians 4:3-5

3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.

I do not know why on Dec. 30 2008, you chose to come here and debate and try to expose myths that you suppose to exist. Perhaps you are lonely or seeking validation. Christians are told that we do not know when our time will come - we know not the hour or the day - thus we are instructed to be ready. I may have more of a clue than most of when the end will come and feel my mortality more each day. I have no fear and no questions -- only peace, contentment and joy that I am Loved by God.

1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.

I hope you find the answers to your questions and that your search will lead you to discover a real and loving God.

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Do not tarry long, my friend - God is waiting. Blessings to you.

[pokemaughan]

My truth is different than yours, but surely you can see that giving up acceptance of a false belief does not require hardening ones heart. It only requires learning a belief is false.

Truth, similar to math, is a constant. Whether you know it or not, it's there. Whether you believe it or not, it's there. There's no such thing as 'my' truth or 'your' truth. There's THE truth- no one can change it.

[Guest yod]

Why would you say, "... having no belief in God is a belief in itself"? I don't get your point.

THe word "faith" only means "strong trust". If you have "strong trust" that there is no god, then you are trusting in something you've decided to trust because you want to.

That's all he's saying, I think?

Bertrand Russell postulated a tiny black teapot in orbit about the Sun. How can we prove it is not there?

We could say that it scientifically is impossible...but so is the resurrection. The difference is that there were many witnesses to the resurrection and none to the teapot theory.

I am puzzled because I have heard other Christian make the same sort of remark and I am only trying to point out why it seems to make no sense to me. I don't get it. Please explain.

Again...sorry if I'm jumping in and repeating what has already been said...but there is evidence of something very supernatural in the Word. The Prophets spoke of things they could not have known in advance. They gave names and dates in some cases...and God says it was to prove that He knows the end from the beginning.

I was once a fan of Nostradomus but he made lots of errors and mistakes and half-true predictions. That is not even close to the 100% accuracy of what the Prophets said.

I began reading the bible to prove it was poppycock in late 1989. Guess you can tell how that worked out?

Once I saw the truth I couldn't unsee it. There is scientific and historical evidence in the Bible that made me examine why I didn't want to trust God because, really, that was the only obstacle.

Jesus didn't come to make us happy. He came that we could be free from the bondage of things that are destroying us. Or in other words "sin". I had no power over the things that drove me back then. It all changed in an instant one night when I called upon the Lord and begin to trust Him and His ways.

I can tell you after 20 years that it hasn't always been easy but I've never regretted that decision even for a split second.

So keep seeking the truth and you will find it. I'm confident it will be worth the trouble of trying. There is nothing to fear in following the Truth.

[OneLight]

Do you or I feel guilty for abandoning belief in tooth fairies, Easter bunnies, or Santa? I certainly don't. I don't know whether you ever held those childhood beliefs, but if you did, do you now feel guilt for giving them up? Not very likely. The reason you would not feel guilt is that you know them to be false beliefs. It is not because you have hardened your heart against the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus. The same holds true for myself and God. I have not hardened my heart. I have learned the truth. My truth is different than yours, but surely you can see that giving up acceptance of a false belief does not require hardening ones heart. It only requires learning a belief is false.

As I had stated earlier, these are fake, false, not real. God is real and can be found. Those you mention can not be found because they are a lie.

As for the lies I once told my kids. Yes, I do have guilt about them now, even though I have been forgiven. You see, they all led away from the truth. The stories in themselves, if spoken as a fairy tale with the understanding as such, are harmless in nature. Like reading a fiction story to the kids. They know it is not true. But when we give them the air of truth, as you mentioned, then it is a lie. The lie is what I am guilty of and when they found out that I lied, they then questioned the truth I did tell them about God. A lie can damage and does.

Truth can not change when it comes to God. God does not change. You either believe in Him or you do not. Because you choose to not believe in God does not make what you think as truth. How can believing in a lie become truth?

[OneLight]

... having no belief in God is a belief in itself. You believe God does not exist.

What does having a belief have to do with this? Everything.

I seem not to have made my objection clear. I understand that belief plays an integral role in the discussion. However, claiming that "... having no belief in God is a belief in itself" does not make sense; at least no sense that I have grasped. That is why I raised the tooth fairy as a point of reference. That is why I said:

You see OneLight, with everything you can imagine that you and I don't believe in you must then say, "See, you have a negative belief in (fill in the blank), but it's still a belief."

So with the above statement in mind how does that pertain to the tooth fairy when I say, "Having no belief in the tooth fairy is a a belief in itself."

Why would you say, "... having no belief in God is a belief in itself"? I don't get your point. Bertrand Russell postulated a tiny black teapot in orbit about the Sun. How can we prove it is not there? Do you say my belief that his teapot is not there is a belief in itself? What would the point be of saying that? I am puzzled because I have heard other Christian make the same sort of remark and I am only trying to point out why it seems to make no sense to me. I don't get it. Please explain.

It is very simple. Sometimes the very simple is overlooked in a heaver discussion.

I believe there is a God.

You believe there is no God.

They both are a belief system built on what we have learned through our experiences in life.

[OneLight]

The best explanation I can give for this term is the following:

Mark 16:14

Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

Christ used the words because of their unbelief.