beyond reproach

October 29, 2008

I have been a Christian for some time and this concept of "beyond reproach" is new to me. but one that has come up several times in the church over the past month or so. I have researched it quite a bit and the Bible refers to it in the concept of elders, and church leaders. I am not sure I understand it though. How does one accomplish this? I always thought that this was a major concept of Christian Doctorin that we are all sinners, we all fall short. How is it possible to make yor life so that when people look at it they find no fault at all? This is way beyond me and I have found any sources that have given me an answer yet. If this is acheivable then why do we need Christ? Anyone that can shed some light it would be great.

October 29, 2008

quote name='ncorthopa' date='Oct 29 2008, 06:30 AM' post='1278277']

I have been a Christian for some time and this concept of "beyond reproach" is new to me. but one that has come up several times in the church over the past month or so. I have researched it quite a bit and the Bible refers to it in the concept of elders, and church leaders. I am not sure I understand it though. How does one accomplish this? I always thought that this was a major concept of Christian Doctorin that we are all sinners, we all fall short. How is it possible to make yor life so that when people look at it they find no fault at all? This is way beyond me and I have found any sources that have given me an answer yet. If this is acheivable then why do we need Christ? Anyone that can shed some light it would be great.

glorywatch · October 29, 2008

In Titus 1 we find some insight into how a person should live "above reproach". They should not be over bearing, quick tempered, not given to drunkeness, not violent, not given to dishonest gain. It goes on to say rather the person should be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.

A persons life style and relationships provides a window into their character. If you are honest, don't steal, don't cheat people, are a drunkard, then I would say you are living above reproach, which basically means you are living above "blame" for wrong doings.

Why do we need Christ in this? Because without Him would we strive to do what is right and Holy or would we just be the carnal man that Scripture tells us we are. "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Only when we have the blood of Christ applied to our lives can we truly say we are "blameless" because when God looks at us, he sees the blood of HIS SON, not our faults.

stormy612 · October 29, 2008

I fear I can't shed much light for you on a biblical understanding. I only have my testimony.

Early in my salvation, many hypocrisies were pointed out to me-the difference between what I was saying (preaching, teaching, learning of God) and how I was living my life. I was embarrassed when such things were pointed out but I knew it was chastizement (sp?)from my Lord. His desire is to bring me to perfection in Him so that His glory is revealed without spot or blemish. I can't always see me the way others do so I need others (through Jesus) to point out any hypocrisy in my life. As I have walked with Jesus, less has been pointed out to me. Not that there still isn't that in me, only I'm learning to line up what Jesus teaches me with how I walk. I think the 'elders' who are 'beyond reproach' have walked with Him long enough so that most of their walk does line up with all that Jesus has taught them, and thus the glory of God is revealed with less spots and less blemishes than it is with a baby Christian. None of us will obtain perfection on earth, but I strive to gain as much of it as I can while I'm here. In order to do that, I have to ask God to bring into the light those things in me that are hypocritical-a rather trying experience, but one that leads to a 'cleaner' more perfected revelation of God.

I hope this helps.

October 29, 2008

In Titus 1 we find some insight into how a person should live "above reproach". They should not be over bearing, quick tempered, not given to drunkeness, not violent, not given to dishonest gain. It goes on to say rather the person should be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.

A persons life style and relationships provides a window into their character. If you are honest, don't steal, don't cheat people, are a drunkard, then I would say you are living above reproach, which basically means you are living above "blame" for wrong doings.

Why do we need Christ in this? Because without Him would we strive to do what is right and Holy or would we just be the carnal man that Scripture tells us we are. "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Only when we have the blood of Christ applied to our lives can we truly say we are "blameless" because when God looks at us, he sees the blood of HIS SON, not our faults.

what do you mean by living above the "blame"

but also my question remains how can you live to a point where you are above any one's reproach where you are so good and holy that there is no one on earth that can reproach you. I almost sounds to me like this is where the Catholics place the pope. (no knock on catholics) but there is what it sounds like to me. Who is on this earth that is so almight that no one can rebuke him or her?

Abigailwc · October 29, 2008

As long as we live in the flesh down here on earth we will never be "beyond reproach". It is impossible by ourselves to be perfect. It is Jesus who lives in us who sanctifies us. It is Him who makes us white as snow. It is Him who erased our sins with His blood shed on the cross. Salvation is by grace, not by works. Without God there is nothing good that we can do. Whatever is of man is filthy, whatever is of God, is perfect. When God makes us His own through Jesus, He makes us perfect to Him. We owe it all to Him.

glorywatch · October 29, 2008

Man will always find fault. The only standard we are to be measured by is what God says in HIS Word. If you do those things, then it doesn't matter what man says. God is the one who set the standard. If we are doing the things God set forth for us to do then we are above reproach, no matter what man says.

When it comes to deciding who can be leaders and elders in the church, where this really all comes from, then if a man has done all the things that Scripture says he should or should not do, then he fits the criteria that God has set as being "fit" or above reproach. Thats really all that matters.

kross · October 29, 2008

I have been a Christian for some time and this concept of "beyond reproach" is new to me. but one that has come up several times in the church over the past month or so. I have researched it quite a bit and the Bible refers to it in the concept of elders, and church leaders. I am not sure I understand it though. How does one accomplish this? I always thought that this was a major concept of Christian Doctorin that we are all sinners, we all fall short. How is it possible to make yor life so that when people look at it they find no fault at all? This is way beyond me and I have found any sources that have given me an answer yet. If this is acheivable then why do we need Christ? Anyone that can shed some light it would be great.

I like the question, and I like your statement that if we could do this we would not need JESUS.

One of the great, and overlooked, promises of GOD is from the sermon on the mount. "Blessed are you who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for you will be filled". If you attained sinless perfection in this life, it would be a gift from GOD or a curse.

If you attain a positon of sinlessness, you will be proud of it and that will put you at the beginning. However, it is possible to walk in this world in such a way that those around you do not see your failings. Deal rightly with people and be at peace with everyone. Slow to anger and quick to forgive.

Rhonda Lou · October 29, 2008

In Titus 1 we find some insight into how a person should live "above reproach". They should not be over bearing, quick tempered, not given to drunkeness, not violent, not given to dishonest gain. It goes on to say rather the person should be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.

A persons life style and relationships provides a window into their character. If you are honest, don't steal, don't cheat people, are a drunkard, then I would say you are living above reproach, which basically means you are living above "blame" for wrong doings.

Why do we need Christ in this? Because without Him would we strive to do what is right and Holy or would we just be the carnal man that Scripture tells us we are. "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Only when we have the blood of Christ applied to our lives can we truly say we are "blameless" because when God looks at us, he sees the blood of HIS SON, not our faults.

what do you mean by living above the "blame"

but also my question remains how can you live to a point where you are above any one's reproach where you are so good and holy that there is no one on earth that can reproach you. I almost sounds to me like this is where the Catholics place the pope. (no knock on catholics) but there is what it sounds like to me. Who is on this earth that is so almight that no one can rebuke him or her?

You are correct. In our sin, we can never be "beyond reproach". I believe that in the context of the quote about elders, they have been transformed to the point where nobody can find any "dirt" on them, much the same as Daniel in Daniel 6. People wanting him out of the way attempted to dig up dirt on him, but couldn't find it. So, they were forced to go to King Darius and ask him to make a verdict that everybody had to worship only him. They knew that Daniel would refuse, so that in this way, he would "break the law" and they'd have something to use against him.

You are correct. We all sin. You mentioned that we need Jesus because we all sin. I think that part of salvation is not only that "we all sin" -- but that I sin -- me, myself and my -- in such a way that I can never, ever get better. I can never do away with the love of sinning, the desire to please self, the rebellion at submitting to those higher than I (like God). Once I come to the end of "self" -- I repent. I turn away from "self" into a new direction. Self can never be improved. It must be killed. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "For He (God) made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." In essence, an exchange takes place. God died physically as the Substitute for us, but God gave His righteousness to us, as we die spiritually. Galatians 2:20 says, "I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." We die spiritually. We are made a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17) in that our old sin nature is done away with, and replaced with God in us -- Jesus in us. "("Saints) to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory." John 15:4-5 says, "Abide in me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit, FOR WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING.'

People often believe that God saves us from our sins to eternal life, and He does. BUT the purpose of God's saving us is so that we can be transformed, living the life He calls us to live here and now. We are "saved" from "self" and sin to walk in newness of life here and now. We need Jesus not just to get to heaven -- but to live here on earth. The Bible says about this part of salvation:"Bue we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord...For God; who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. (2 Corinthians 3:18, 4:6-7)

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, AND GLORIFY YOUR FATHER, which is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which god hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Good works do not save us -- we're hopeless and will always be because of the flesh (container for our souls and spirits). We follow the container more than what is inside. BUT, by faith, Jesus comes into our hearts with the Holy Spirit. They empower us and live through us to accomplish their will. People see our light -- the light of God in us -- living through us, and know that we are not responsible for good works -- GOD is through us, and so they give Him glory. But, as Christians, even though we are saved by grace -- apart from works, we are saved for the purpose of good works created by God. The problem is that without Him in us -- we can't DO them -- and THAT is why we need Jesus.

The longer we live by the faith in Jesus Death, Ressurection, and the power from them, the more people will see Him in us -- and that is where "beyond reproach" becomes a reality. You are correct -- our FLESH will NEVER be "beyond reproach" but our spirits and hearts are already if we've asked Jesus to come and rule -- and HE is always beyond reproach. People see that and give God the glory.

I hope this answers your question.

Hunterpoet · October 29, 2008

I have been a Christian for some time and this concept of "beyond reproach" is new to me. but one that has come up several times in the church over the past month or so. I have researched it quite a bit and the Bible refers to it in the concept of elders, and church leaders. I am not sure I understand it though. How does one accomplish this? I always thought that this was a major concept of Christian Doctorin that we are all sinners, we all fall short. How is it possible to make yor life so that when people look at it they find no fault at all? This is way beyond me and I have found any sources that have given me an answer yet. If this is acheivable then why do we need Christ? Anyone that can shed some light it would be great.

yes we are all sinners and do fall short of the glory. This in no way prevents any one of us from being " beyond reproach ", because no matter how perfect we may become, we will always be imperfect in the eyes of the Lord.

My best example for you would be something I learned watching a Billy Graham documentary/biography. When he was forming his ministry, it was decided early on that no person in the ministry for any reason would be alone with a female other than his wife. To date, this ministry has never suffered a sexual scandal, unlike some other ministries here in america.

And I'm sure Mr. Graham would be the first to tell you that he is a sinner and always in need of G-ds grace.

If you conduct yourself accordingly, you will from the worlds point of view be " beyond reproach ", but not so in the eyes of G-d.

I hope I have expressed my point clearly .