Heaven?

[kross]

Often children are told that when you die, you go to Heaven. My whole life I believed that as well, That if I put my faith and trust in Jesus I would go to Heaven, and if any one rejects Christ, they would go to Hell.

I know when Jesus comes for the second time, we will be his people and he will be with us again once and for all , but where?

First of all don't just take my word for it but look for it your self because there is not one single scripture in all of the bible that says that when we die we will go to heaven. The bible says that when we die our flesh turns back to the dust it was made from and our spirit (that is the breath of life) goes back to God who gave it. But the bible says nothing about our souls and where they will be going.

There are many who teach and even my Pastor just this Sunday stated that the bible says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord' But that is mis-leading and not at all biblical.

2 Corinthians 5:8 say "We are confident, Isay, and WILLING RATHER TO BE ABSENT from the body, AND to be present with the Lord". This verse is saying that we WOULD RATHER be absent from the body and present with the Lord. This verse DOESN'T say that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".

Heaven is the abode (dwelling place) of God and no one is ever going to spend eternity in heaven. We will be going to heaven but only for a brief period of time.

When Jesus comes back He will pick us (His Bride) up and present us to His father as an acceptable gift. We will be standing before the throne of God when this is done. Next we will partake in the wedding supper and when we are finished we will be coming back down to earth to spend eternity on a new earth and in a new Jerusalem with 300 hundred foot tall walls.

However, although I am sure there can be another understanding, if 2Cor 5:8 is placed with Phil 1:23 "For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with CHRIST; which is far better;" which Paul stated after "to live is CHRIST, but to die is gain".

Paul teaches that when we die, we leave these earthly tents and are with CHRIST. We know the spirit that is alive in us is GOD's spirit and it will return to HIM., we also see that we ourselves will go to where CHRIST is, and that would be our souls.

[kross]

When Christ comes back he will set up his kingdom on the Physical earth and it will be transformed back to the way it was before evil destroyed it.

So why do you think It was taught to our children that they will go to heaven?

If you die today, you will be in heaven with JESUS. You will never be separated from HIM. There is a lot of talk in this thread about Abraham's bosom which went away when JESUS took those who were waiting there and preached to them and set them free. This was a holding place for the righteous who died waiting for the salvation of GOD, their messiah.

We read in Philipians where Paul taught that to live is CHRIST but to die is gain. He goes on to explain that death would mean to be with CHRIST. Once you are saved, you will never be separated from JESUS.

[nebula]

TIME OUT!

For your praise and worship experience -

Click here

Then hit "play" on the first video . . . "A Place Called Heaven" by The Classic Imperials.

[Celt]

Our Lord's teaching in John 5 reinforces that we are raised right after flesh death...

John 5:24-29

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;

27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus represents the Firstfruit of the resurrection. After His resurrection He went to preach to the "spirits in prison" per 1 Peter 3. I believe the raising of the dead has been happenning all along, since the man Adam, with the Luke 16 example being how it was BEFORE our Lord Jesus died on the cross was raised by The Father. Like He also said to the blind scribes and Pharisees, for God is not the God of the dead, but of the living...

Luke 20:37-38

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.

(KJV)

What does that mean "for all live unto Him"? It goes with what the apostle Paul was saying about wanting to be absent from the body to be with Christ.

About Eccl.12:5-7 of what happens at death, the "spirit" part that goes back to God is important to understand. We are told at flesh death our flesh body goes back to the ground where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. What that "spirit" part contains is not just some element that animates all living things. That's how the 'dead in the ground' theorists treat it, which is dangerous, because if that "spirit" means only something that animates the flesh, then there would be no such thing as one's soul intellect, i.e., the real part of what we call person.

Allowing The Bible to interpret Itself means all those passages about our soul and what happens after death which our Lord Jesus and His Apostles preached must also be weighed. To deny them is to deny His Word.

Matt 10:28

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(KJV)

The meaning of "hell" in that verse is about the "lake of fire" of Rev.20:14-15, which is where hell will go into after Christ's thousand years reign on earth. The Greek word is 'genna', referring to the valley of Hinnom. A flesh type body does not go into hell, nor the lake of fire. Our Lord Jesus showed that even with the "rich man" of Luke 16. So what is our Lord saying in that Matt.10:28 verse?

Don't fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul. But do fear Him Who can destroy both 'body' and soul in the "lake of fire". But again, what kind of body is that? Satan and his angels are already judged and sentenced to go into the "lake of fire", so what kind of body do they have? They have angelic bodies, not flesh bodies. And that's the kind of body our Lord Jesus means there that can go into 'geena'.

Then if you read Eccl.12:5-7 again in relation, we MUST interpret that "spirit" part that goes back to God Who gave it contains more than something which simply animates all things. It also means a spiritual type body with the soul. The whole Bible is in agreement with Itself. And the "spiritual body" part is exactly what the apostle Paul was talking about with the idea of resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 (also in 2 Cor.5 about being absent). Paul also called it the "image of the heavenly" and a body of "incorruption", contrasting it to the flesh corruptible body. Whether here on earth in a flesh body, or in the heavenly, ALL live unto God like our Lord Jesus said.

Also, the "third heaven" in 2 Cor.12 which the apostle Paul mentioned, does not mean a third level in Heaven. It means the third heavenly age, which is God's Eternity. That one who was "caught up" to Paradise, to the "third heaven" (which I believe was Paul modestly speaking of himself), was brought forward in time to the new heavens and a new earth event. There are three world ages mentioned in God's Word. The first was the time when Satan first rebelled, and the second we are still in, which will include Christ's future thousand years reign on earth, and the third begins after that when the new heavens and a new earth is manifested with the wicked gone.

This is what the early Church believed, which got corrupted later into the doctrine of man of praying to dead saints, etc.

[Massorite]

Often children are told that when you die, you go to Heaven. My whole life I believed that as well, That if I put my faith and trust in Jesus I would go to Heaven, and if any one rejects Christ, they would go to Hell.

I know when Jesus comes for the second time, we will be his people and he will be with us again once and for all , but where?

First of all don't just take my word for it but look for it your self because there is not one single scripture in all of the bible that says that when we die we will go to heaven. The bible says that when we die our flesh turns back to the dust it was made from and our spirit (that is the breath of life) goes back to God who gave it. But the bible says nothing about our souls and where they will be going.

There are many who teach and even my Pastor just this Sunday stated that the bible says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord' But that is mis-leading and not at all biblical.

2 Corinthians 5:8 say "We are confident, Isay, and WILLING RATHER TO BE ABSENT from the body, AND to be present with the Lord". This verse is saying that we WOULD RATHER be absent from the body and present with the Lord. This verse DOESN'T say that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".

Heaven is the abode (dwelling place) of God and no one is ever going to spend eternity in heaven. We will be going to heaven but only for a brief period of time.

When Jesus comes back He will pick us (His Bride) up and present us to His father as an acceptable gift. We will be standing before the throne of God when this is done. Next we will partake in the wedding supper and when we are finished we will be coming back down to earth to spend eternity on a new earth and in a new Jerusalem with 300 hundred foot tall walls.

However, although I am sure there can be another understanding, if 2Cor 5:8 is placed with Phil 1:23 "For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with CHRIST; which is far better;" which Paul stated after "to live is CHRIST, but to die is gain".

Paul teaches that when we die, we leave these earthly tents and are with CHRIST. We know the spirit that is alive in us is GOD's spirit and it will return to HIM., we also see that we ourselves will go to where CHRIST is, and that would be our souls.

So where in this verse does Paul say "when we die we will go to where Christ is"? I don't see that anywhere in the verses you have quoted here. What I do see is Paul telling us that he and ourselves would rather be with Christ then to be in our bodies here on earth. If we go to where Christ is when we die then why does He need to come and get those who are already in the grave. If we were already with Christ there would be no need for us to resurrect from our graves and Christ would only be coming back for the living in Christ because the dead in Christ would already be with Him. The word DESIRE in Phil 1:23 is speaking about just what it is. A desire or longing or want but not a physical or tangible fact.

[Shiloh62]

Often children are told that when you die, you go to Heaven. My whole life I believed that as well, That if I put my faith and trust in Jesus I would go to Heaven, and if any one rejects Christ, they would go to Hell.

I know when Jesus comes for the second time, we will be his people and he will be with us again once and for all , but where?

I believe that it will be on earth, but a new earth after armageddon.

[Massorite]

Our Lord's teaching in John 5 reinforces that we are raised right after flesh death...

John 5:24-29

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;

27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus represents the Firstfruit of the resurrection. After His resurrection He went to preach to the "spirits in prison" per 1 Peter 3. I believe the raising of the dead has been happenning all along, since the man Adam, with the Luke 16 example being how it was BEFORE our Lord Jesus died on the cross was raised by The Father. Like He also said to the blind scribes and Pharisees, for God is not the God of the dead, but of the living...

Luke 20:37-38

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.

(KJV)

What does that mean "for all live unto Him"? It goes with what the apostle Paul was saying about wanting to be absent from the body to be with Christ.

About Eccl.12:5-7 of what happens at death, the "spirit" part that goes back to God is important to understand. We are told at flesh death our flesh body goes back to the ground where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. What that "spirit" part contains is not just some element that animates all living things. That's how the 'dead in the ground' theorists treat it, which is dangerous, because if that "spirit" means only something that animates the flesh, then there would be no such thing as one's soul intellect, i.e., the real part of what we call person.

Allowing The Bible to interpret Itself means all those passages about our soul and what happens after death which our Lord Jesus and His Apostles preached must also be weighed. To deny them is to deny His Word.

Matt 10:28

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(KJV)

The meaning of "hell" in that verse is about the "lake of fire" of Rev.20:14-15, which is where hell will go into after Christ's thousand years reign on earth. The Greek word is 'genna', referring to the valley of Hinnom. A flesh type body does not go into hell, nor the lake of fire. Our Lord Jesus showed that even with the "rich man" of Luke 16. So what is our Lord saying in that Matt.10:28 verse?

Don't fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul. But do fear Him Who can destroy both 'body' and soul in the "lake of fire". But again, what kind of body is that? Satan and his angels are already judged and sentenced to go into the "lake of fire", so what kind of body do they have? They have angelic bodies, not flesh bodies. And that's the kind of body our Lord Jesus means there that can go into 'geena'.

Then if you read Eccl.12:5-7 again in relation, we MUST interpret that "spirit" part that goes back to God Who gave it contains more than something which simply animates all things. It also means a spiritual type body with the soul. The whole Bible is in agreement with Itself. And the "spiritual body" part is exactly what the apostle Paul was talking about with the idea of resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 (also in 2 Cor.5 about being absent). Paul also called it the "image of the heavenly" and a body of "incorruption", contrasting it to the flesh corruptible body. Whether here on earth in a flesh body, or in the heavenly, ALL live unto God like our Lord Jesus said.

Also, the "third heaven" in 2 Cor.12 which the apostle Paul mentioned, does not mean a third level in Heaven. It means the third heavenly age, which is God's Eternity. That one who was "caught up" to Paradise, to the "third heaven" (which I believe was Paul modestly speaking of himself), was brought forward in time to the new heavens and a new earth event. There are three world ages mentioned in God's Word. The first was the time when Satan first rebelled, and the second we are still in, which will include Christ's future thousand years reign on earth, and the third begins after that when the new heavens and a new earth is manifested with the wicked gone.

This is what the early Church believed, which got corrupted later into the doctrine of man of praying to dead saints, etc.

So if verse 25 means that the time when Jesus will call is "NOW" then why does verse 28 say that the time when Jesus will call us "IS COMING"? Why doesn't verse 28 say that the time "IS NOW"?

Why does Jesus need to call us from the grave when if we are already called from the grave and we are already with Him? I mean after all if we are called from the grave as soon as we die the grave should be empty. Right? Or did Jesus miss a few of us and needs to call us from the grave again?

If Jesus represants the first fruits unto God then why does the book of Revelation ch 14 say that the 144,000 are the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb? There are only one set of first fruits and anything that is after that is the second fruits. Right? So did the word of God just controdict its self or did you just assume that Jesus represants the first fruits unto God? Because the bible doesn't call Jesus the first fruits unto God any where.

In Matthew 10:28 the word HELL is not about the lake of firs at all. It is referring to a time when the Israelites sacraficed their children to the pagan god Molock in the Valley of Hinnom. It is also a referrence to Geena or Gehenna and speaks of the fires of distruction.

During the days of Jesus those fires were still burning perpetually in the Valley of Hinnom because they were burning the refuse from Jerusalem. When the Romans had a prisoner who was sick or no longer functional they would carry him out to those fires and throw him into the fires alive. Jesus said "There will be weeping, wailing and the nashing of teeth because that was what those prisoners did when they were thrown into the fires.

NOOOOOO! WE MUST NOT INTERPRET THE WORD SPIRIT AS A SPIRIT TYPE BODY WITH A SOULS in Eccl 12:5-7 because the word spirit is not talking about the soul at all. It is talking about the BREATH of LIFE which only God can give. Since these verses you have quoted do not mean WHAT YOU SAY THEY MEAN which is that the word spirit is talking about the soul and since all or most of the biblical rearch tools say that the word spirit is talking about the breath of life then that is what it is and does not say what you are trying to get others to believe. SHAME SHAME CELT.

In this verse the word "Spirit" is translated from the Hebrew word "ruach" and NOT the word"nephesh" which means soul. So even in the Hebrew the word "Spirit" doesn't have anything to do with the soul.

As for 2 Cor. 12:2. You sir have injected the word "Paradise" into the word of God where it is not written. What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? He said "This day you shall be with me in Paradise". What did Paul say that Jesus did when He died? Paul said that Jesus first decended into the lower parts of the earth. Which means that on the day that the body of Jesus died on that cross. The breath of life went back to God where it came from and His body was life less. It also means that since Jesus went down into the lower parts of the earth, so did the thief. Where Jesus preached to the spirits who were in prison, and since there are no prisons in Heaven we know that Jesus was in Paradise. Which also means that Paradise IS DOWN AND NOT UP.

Do the research and you will find that the word Paradise in 2 Cor. 12:4 is a refference to Ecclesiastes 2:5. In 2 Cor. 12:4 the words "caught up" do not speak of being taken up. It is speaking of how "divine power is used to transfer a person marvellously and swiftly from one place to another" to "snatch or catch away".

We also need to consider the parable of the richman and Lazarus. The bible says that Lazarus died and was carried away by the angels but the rich man simply died.

The record of the word of God also says that the rich man had eyeballs, a tongue and could feel thirst a torment. Since we know that his body turned to dust, but that he still had eye balls and a tongue. We know that his physical features could only be his SOUL that is in torments. And since there is NO FIXED GULF in heaven and the rich man could see Lazarus and talk to Abraham we know that the only place they all could be is IN THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH.

And let us not forget about Samuel who was CALLED UP by the witch of Endor. And when he was called up he asked "Why have you disquieted me"? which means that before he was called up he was quiet or resting just like Lazarus was. Which means that he to WENT DOWN when he died and not up. Since Samuel was an obedient prophet of God we know that he did not go to hell or to be tormented like the rich man. So we know that since he was called up. This tells us that he was in the same Paradise that Jesus decended into on the day He died.

So where in all of God's word did you get the idea that Paradise was up?

There are many times that I read where some one claims that the Early church leaders believed this or that but when I do the research to find out what they did believe I find that they didn't believe what that person said they did at all. So could you please tell me who in the early church believed what you say the did? Show me some quotes.

[nebula]

Does anyone else find it ironic that people are getting uptight with each other over explaining Heaven?

[Massorite]

Does anyone else find it ironic that people are getting uptight with each other over explaining Heaven?

Hi Nebula

Just for the record I am not up tight about explaining heaven. But I do get very up tight when some one is trying to manipulate us into interpreting scripture wrongly by saying that "we MUST interpret this word in this verse this way or that way". Recklessly trashing proper understanding of that word and verse of the Word of God which leads others to misinterpret what the true message of the word of God actually is.

Telling people that "we must interpret this word this way or that way" in stead of interpreting the word correctly is suggestive, subliminal, manipulative and what the bible what the calls witchcraft.

That is what I get upset about.

[nebula]

That's cool.

I still find it amusing, though.

(I can be easily amused....)