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Unlike the cranial configuration of certain people, this discussion is pointless. Those who trust in God's word won't be swayed by attempts to cast doubt onto it or to weave false doctrine into it. Those who do not will readily accept whatever lie Satan concocts. The Mormons certainly did. They created their own "bible," based on a false prophet. Scientology is another false religion, as is the Jehovah's Witnesses. They may be steadfast in their commitment to the false doctrine, but it won't save them. Neither Revelation 16:18 nor anything else in the Bible is indicative of an ancient earth. There are no passages in the Bible that support evolution. Our creation is not a mystery to us. It was detailed by our Creator. We need no other authority but His word. If we have the Holy Spirit, God's word reveals all to us. If we don't, the words have no great meaning to us. The truth is not revealed to all, but to those who seek it the truth is easy to find. God Himself said it plainly in the Fourth Commandment, that in six days the Lord created the Heaven, the earth, and all that lives in it. He didn't need millions of years. He didn't do it in a nanosecond. He was not required to tell us anything of our creation, but who are we to doubt His word? Every word from man is contaminated by man's sin. Every word from God is holy and true. There is one true and useful knowledge; that Jesus Christ is the lamb of God; that He came to take away the sins of man; that He gave His life for our sins on the cross; that He rose again on the third day and confirmed all of what He had been teaching. All other knowledge is subservient to this.

Shalom, @JoeCanada. Okay, I'm going to quote your original post, but I need to be able to break it apart to insert my additions. I don't know what is different, but I can't just break it with a well-positioned [RETURN]; so, it's going to require making quotes and cutting/pasting your stuff into those new quotes. And, in fair warning, this is going to be a long post. Just sayin'. First, Christians have been making a LOT of assumptions down through the last millennium! Some are not too bad; others are disasterous! IMO, one should DROP the "pre-trib," "pre-wrath," and "post-trib" labels and just start with the Scriptures. Come to RIGHT conclusions from Scriptures and let the chips fall where they may! Let's start with a proper understanding of 2 Peter 1:20-21: In the King James Version, this reads, 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Here's the Greek of these two verses: 20 τοῦτο πρῶτον γινώσκοντες ὅτι πᾶσα προφητεία γραφῆς ἰδίας ἐπιλύσεως οὐ γίνεται· 21 οὐ γὰρ θελήματι ἀνθρώπου ἠνέχθη ποτέ προφητεία ἀλλ᾽ ὑπὸ πνεύματος ἁγίου φερόμενοι ἐλάλησαν οἱ ἅγιοι θεοῦ ἄνθρωποι Transliterated, we get: 20 touto prooton ginooskontes hoti pasa profeeteia grafees idias epiluseoos ou ginetai; 21 ou gar theleemati anthroopou eenechthee pote profeeteia, all' hupo Pneumatos Hagiou feromenoi elaleesan hoi hagioi Theou anthroopoi. Translated word for word, we get: 20 this first knowing that any prophecy of-writing/Scripture of-its-own interpretation not is. 21 not for by-will of-a-man was-brought once/ever a-prophecy, but under Spirit of-Holy being-carried spoke of-the holy of-God men. In American English, we would write: 20 knowing this first, that any prophecy of Scripture is not of its own interpretation. 21 For a prophecy was not ever brought by [the] will of a man, but being carried under [the] Spirit of [the] Holy, men of the Holy God spoke. I've heard a MULTITUDE of misinterpretations of these two verses; so, we needed to clear this up first: This is NOT saying that a person can't understand the Scriptures on his or her own! Peter is telling us that the Scriptures which contain prophecy do not stand alone. They ALL come from men under the "inspiration" of the Holy God through His Holy Spirit. And, therefore, they do NOT stand alone! All the Scriptures that contain prophecy are interrelated because there is only ONE GOD! Therefore, we can also conclude from these verses that there are NO CONTRADICTIONS among all thr prophecies of Scripture. I agree with you that there is a difference between a return and a coming, and you are right that Matthew 24:29-31 describes the Second Coming of our Master Yeeshuwa` haMaashiyach 'Elohiym (our Lord Jesus the Christ or the Messiah of God). Have you ever looked up the word "shekinah?" It comes from the Hebrew word שָׁכַן transliterated as "shaakhan" (H7931) which means "abide; lodge; reside; or permanently stay." The word for "glory" in Hebrew is כָּבוֹד transliterated as "kaaVowd" (H3519). It means "to be heavy, weighty." Since it can also be talking about the "weight" of gold and silver, it is about BEING VALUED or VALUABLE. However, the word "glory" in Greek is δόξα transliterated as "doxa" which means "very apparent" like a wealthy person among the simple or like a bright white light among the darkness of space. Thus, it can mean "splendor, brightness." "Heaven" is from "Old English heofon, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch hemel and German Himmel." It's secondary meaning today is actually its original meaning and its historically primary meaning: "2 (often heavens) literary 'the sky,' especially perceived as a vault in which the sun, moon, stars, and planets are situated: Galileo used a telescope to observe the heavens." The same is true for the Greek word "οὐρανός" transliterated as "ouranos." It means "the sky." It is the root and primary component of μεσουράνημα transliterated as "mesouraneema" which means "mid-sky" where the fowl of the air fly (Rev. 19:17). All of these Greek words are found in Matthew 24:30! With these translations in verse 30, we will read it as: Matthew 24:30 (KJV with alterations) 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the sky, and the powers of the skies shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in the sky: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and great brightness. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." THIS is what the Greek is telling us: It's not saying that Yeeshuwa` will come "from heaven"; it's saying that He will come "from the sky!" This may seem trivial, but it is FUNDAMENTAL to the understanding of how the Second Coming will occur. When "stars fall out of the sky" they are called "meteors." When "stars fall out of the sky to the earth," they are called "meteorites." Mark's account also clears up "from one end of the sky to the other": Mark 13:24-27 (KJV with alterations) 24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of the sky shall fall, and the powers that are in the sky shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of the sky." This means "from the lowest point of the earth to the highest point of the sky"; so, "from one end of the sky to the other" would be VERTICALLY! "from the lowest point of the sky to the highest point." Neither Matthew's account nor Mark's nor Luke's says that He comes "upon his throne!" As a matter of fact, in Matthew's account Yeeshuwa` later says, Matthew 25:31 (KJV) 31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" This means that after He has arrived, He will take up His role as the King of Jews (and later as the King of all Israel) and begin His reign. *** Revelation 19:11 reads differently. Here's the Greek: 11 Καὶ εἶδον τὸν οὐρανὸν ἀνεῳγμένον, καὶ ἰδού, ἵππος λευκός καὶ ὁ καθήμενος ἐπ᾽ αὐτὸν καλούμενος πιστὸς καὶ ἀληθινός καὶ ἐν δικαιοσύνῃκρίνει καὶ πολεμεῖ This transliterates to ... 11 Kai eidon ton ouranon aneoogmenon, kai idou, hippos leukos kai ho katheemenos ep' auton kaloumenos pistos kai aleethinos kai en dikaiosunee krinei kai polemei Word for word, this translates to ... 11 And I-saw the sky opened-upward, and look!, a-horse white and the-[One] sitting upon it was-called "Faithful (Consistent) and True (Reliable)" and in righteousness/justice he-will-judge and he-will-wage-war Note that it does NOT say that He comes "from heaven" nor does it even say that He comes "from the sky!" How does a HORSE FLY?! No, the SKY BREAKS and He comes riding to the rescue! It's rather like Gandalf riding upon Shadowfax appearing on the mountain top as the sun rises above the battle below, in the movie "The Lord of the Rings: the Two Towers," when He arrives to save Theoden, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and all those with them in the Hornburg! That's how it will be when the Lord Yeeshuwa` the Messiah of God returns to fight! I'm going to finish up my comments at this point and just end with this: Many have a messed up view on the TIMING within the events of the Revelation. Just know this: Yeeshuwa` is not coming to "DESTROY THE EARTH"; He is coming TO BEGIN HIS REIGN UPON THE EARTH!

Your thoughts are an excellent commentary on this verse: Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Seems to me that at least one of the "we' was individually mistaken to suggest, or declare, that another is a judaizer. It was kind of funny though! Got a chuckle out of it anyway, went good with morning coffee and toast.

Seems the creature behind my own "hardships" is me. I cannot blame another creature for my own standing before God. I have been judged an heir to sin against God, born into it, an heir to the consequential fall of the first Adam. I am found to be short of perfection from before my birth even, and yet I am loved by my creator Yeshua whom has reconciled the irreconcilable, making perfection of that which is not perfect, for me personally, to be likened as being perfect in His Father's sight. Punishment has occurred and yet is still to occur, judgement(s) has occurred and yet is to be faced. Time itself will face it's own end(s). The wrath, the just wrath of God the Father, is before me, and yet my hope is certain, absolute, for it is placed in the faith of Yeshua whose willing sacrifice has covered my sin against God. How do I maintain certainty of my own hope? I do not even do that by my own power, but instead by the gift of God the Holy Spirit indwelling within me that I am aware of the certainty that is hope certain. I cannot detach myself from responsibility, as heir of what I am I can only give thanks to God for his perfect provision for my eternity forward. That eternity being a timeless pardon, one without condition except knowing of it, through the Holy Spirit's reveal, to delight in it having been changed by it turned about away from my sin against God. And even that knowledge and or turning itself coming not from me, but from God alone. No other creature can I blame, no creature can I claim. I am of God, by God alone. His will being done as he wills it from before time itself to after time itself.

The creature behind these hardships has already been judged, it's just that the sentence hasn't yet been carried out. John 16:11, concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. A believer needs to know or remember where in the flow of time one stands and have confidence that there is an end to this trial of physical life. John 16:33, I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

Rev. 19:10 (ESV), Last sentence in the verse: For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The wine press of the wrath of God is compressing. There is stress and pressure worldwide and just since the new year events seem to be compounding. Edit: Changed a word.

We know if something would come true by those means, it would be by evil forces or spirits. And we know those evil spirits eventually would destroy a person.

Good example of someone being warned, but then they have the choice to go on or not. Paul was not emotionally swayed from his course with the disciples weeping etc.

I'd say it's slightly more nuanced than your summary. I think the important 'highlights' are as follows: - The British were given official stewardship of "The Palestinian Territory" in July 1920. - Approaching this period of British mandate, as the result of Jewish immigration, the Arabs had become increasingly concerned and violent because of the changing demographics. - The British solution to the conflict was a partition plan (Peel Commision 1937) that separated Jews from Arabs (with a stretch in between remaining under the control of Britain). The Jews didn't really give a universal, united response to this plan. The Arabs increased their violence in the land as a universal rejection of this plan. - After WWII, Jews also became increasingly desperate and violent - due to displaced Jews now needing a place to go. Jews therefore also became violent against the British for limiting immigration to the land. - In 1947, Britain asked the newly-formed UN to help provide a solution. The UN resolution for a two-state solution passed. Jews celebrated and Arabs increased their attacks on Jews. - On the final day of the British Mandate (Friday, May 14th, 1948), Israel declared Independence at 4PM. Egyptian bombs fell on Tel Aviv around 4 hours later. The military forces of the surrounding Arab states mobilized against Israel the following day - starting a war that would last two years.

Correct. There are two narratives surrounding the "Nakba". There are many resources espousing the virtues of each narrative. The mainstream has adopted the narrative that incorrectly attributes Arab migration exclusively Israeli military intimidation. In this thread, you have also been a proponent of this false narrative.

Sometimes I listen to OPPs, which is shorthand for Other People's Problems, and often there is a complaint against God included in their commentaries. Even though the Bible does record complaints against God, these typically are resolved, and in the case of Habakkuk, replaced with triumphant praise and strong commendations of God for providing an upward escape from downward experiences.

First, I am a Daniel guy because it is the only book I have ever studied. But I have heard that Daniel is necessary to understand Revelation. Regarding the 30 minutes in Daniel- I can’t seem to find a time element that speaks to this… It must / will be found in a OT book but I have not yet found it. But I decided to first look at the Sanctuary and the actions within it to see if there is / was a purposeful silent period within the atonement ritual. But it seems you have SO much information at your fingertips! You have offered more than a few thoughts on this… neat stuff! So, the silence in heaven— is that an event that is necessary to take place in heaven or on earth? Is it to occur to show ALL those in the heavenly realm what will take place there .. does it reveal what God will now do to satan … ? Thanks for your thoughts!! Charlie

Thats common in this nation, hundreds of muslim sacred graves bestow wishes and miracles for those who regularly pray and chant the Arabic verses there. some sacred graves cannot even be moved to other place even using bulldozers. And there are many many spiritual masters/Tao Fortune tellers/ temples, graves that can give miracles but not all. I used to chant Arabic verses too and knew the blessings. It was in the past. Its true Debp, anybody desire for their wishes and Fortune shall be rewarded. Great temptation to me.

Stephen Kinzer's All the Shah's Men (John Wiley & Sons, 2003) details how the US wrenched control of Iran's oil from the Iranian government led by Mossadegh, overthrown by a CIA-assisted coup-d'état in 1953 - originally the coup plan was British. The events of 1979 when religious radicals overthrew the US-assisted Shah were a result of this.

I think that is perfectly reasonable. However, as someone with no 'skin in the game', who has followed the conflict for decades and studied the history of the region (including prior to my Christian conversion), I would struggle to come up with 10 instances of the Israel side acting in an egregious, unprovoked, atrocious manner. To be conservative, let's say I missed some - and the true number is closer to 20 or 30. There are, by contrast (and without exaggeration or hyperbole), literally thousands of documented occasions when the Arab side has committed atrocities against Israel. That is, if you list and count them, there have been more attacks against Israel than days past since Israel's declaration of independence over 70 years ago. I understand (and respect) the inclination to want to hear both sides of the conflict. But I can only do so much when the facts tell an overwhelmingly one-sided story, and the mainstream adopts and promotes a false narrative to make the opposite seem true. How many times can the supposedly 'victimized' side of a conflict choose violence over negotiations - before we can start to question their good faith in the negotiation process? Not-to-mention the regional Arab's oft-stated, unequivocal, unhidden, uncompromising goal to snuff out the existence of Israel.

Water issues in the Middle East go back a long way. In 1955 there was the US-brokered Johnston Plan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Valley_Unified_Water_Plan

With regards to the West Bank: In 1967, after the six day war (in which Israel was attacked by most of its neighbors), Israel gained control of the water supply and, unsurprisingly, favored distribution to its own civilians. Even so, for subsequent decades, the West Bank were also receiving ample water supplies for their needs from Israel (which Israel was not obligated to supply to its enemies – whose consistent stated goal is to annihilate Israel). However, since then, the needs of both Israel proper and the West Bank have increased beyond sustainability. Currently, Israel gets most of its water through desalination. Furthermore, all of Israel’s attempts to negotiate water supplies into the West Bank have been stymied by “Palestinian” rejections. For example, in 2004, Israel proposed to build a desalination plant to increase freshwater supplies to the West Bank. The proposal was rejected by the Palestinian Authority. Negotiations over water have been on-and-off depending on the state of the conflict. It is therefore disingenuous, (and simplistic and/or uninformed) to paint this as simply Israel being the big bad meanies regarding this aspect of the conflict. Negotiations have been attempted, but it makes life difficult when you have to periodically dodge an intifada (i.e. when everyone stops talking to each other for years at a time). Regarding Gaza: If only there had been a government in Gaza since 2005, receiving billions of dollars annually in international aid; i.e. a government which could have used that money to secure its own electricity and water supplies. Are you aware that in 2015, Hamas forbade their people from digging wells to get fresh water? Gaza is essentially a mini-state, under the control of an elected terrorist organization. When a state goes to war with another state, there is no reasonable obligation on the attacked state to provide their attackers with resources. I would therefore suggest that this example is a false equivalency - i.e. when compared against the consistent violent aggression against Israel; the constant threat to civilian lives; the thousands of rocket attacks, terrorist attacks (bombings, stabbings, shootings of Israeli Jews) and acts of war committed against Israel in the name of those explicitly seeking Israel’s extinction (not to mention the recent slaughter and kidnap of innocent Jews). The current state of affairs is: Israel gained control of the water supplies in Israel in 1967. Israel cannot sensibly give over control of the water supply (with the potential to compromise Israel’s access to water) to terrorist-inclined parties seeking Israel’s demise. Arabs in the West Bank consider accepting charitable solutions from Israel to be potentially compromising to their own claims over the water supply (a cynic might be inclined to assume the Arabs also gain political momentum from showing the sorrowful state of their people). Therefore, a solution needs to be negotiated – which is hard to do when no one is talking to each other. Perhaps Israel could have been more charitable with regards to supplying more water to their enemies. It’s not an ideal situation. But it’s also not as black and white as your post implies.

@NConly Yes, hope it turns out much better next time.

@Coruscating There us of course a distinction between the believer and the unbeliever. Philippians 1.6: "He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"

The Lord does not approve of complacency on our part. There is something worth writing about, things I do not share otherwise. Have I endured hardship? Indeed. Hardship was my life in this world until everything except for the life in this body was taken away. This can happen to some in combat zones: the zone changes them so that they can never go home again. There was a soldier during the Gulf War who said this to his section chief: "I can never go home." He never did. Something similar happened to me in this life. After the Lord raised me up to be a man again, He promised that nothing would be the same. I didn't understand His words until they started unfolding before my eyes. Whereas in the past I lived life waiting for the hammer to fall --- it always did, sometimes sooner than later --- the opposite was happening. I would wait for the hammer to fall and instead of disaster, blessings would fall like rain all around me. My adopted mother defeated cancer and the damage to her liver was miraculously "rolled back" so that she wasn't in danger any longer. Her heart softened toward the Lord. No one and nothing disturbed the peace on her land again, and this was the promise the Lord made after He poured His Spirit upon me. She would live the rest of her days in peace knowing that she was loved. Not long before sudden illness took her, the Lord sent a dream wherein He displayed that my time on her land was coming to an end, and that He would take her. When I woke from that dream, He told me not to despair. Nothing on this earth endures forever, said the Lord. I would not remain on her ranch. That's how nothing was the same again. I was no longer ignorant of His will and instead of calamity, the Lord encourages me to stand and walk confident not in myself, but confident in Him. When I said, "Lord, I can be a terrible man." He assured me that I would not lack for a teacher in Him. I continue to overcome the war zone I lived and breathed in for so long, and I learned the wise alternative to expecting the worst: Accepting that whatever befalls me is according to His will and purpose.

Syria in those days was a much wider term; until the 1943 independence of Lebanon it included what is now Lebanon. The Syrian Republic dates from 1946.

@Coruscating You would know of the Mirror, anyway, where the article was.

Yes, the Judgment will be there, but until then we will have everything we need for life.