brakelite

Are we not ambassadors for the kingdom of God? Is it right that ambassadors take up armed conflict on behalf of the nation that is their host?

So you would rather take the word of a Jesuit who created the futurist concept as an integral part of the counter reformation above the combined unanimous testimony of the reformers who died for that testimony?

If you want to know the full story, let me know...meanwhile, here's the short version. The 7 year tribulation and many things that derive from that idea is a deliberate deception stemming from a Jesuit in the 16th century through a badly (again deliberate) translated portion of Daniel 9. And almost the entire Protestant Christian world has fallen for it. The reason? To deflect everyone's Biblical understanding of the identity of the true antichrist.

Correct. It is not in the Bible.

You won't find it unless you ignore the Bible.

There has been some good accurate stuff shared on this thread. With what has been shared previous...change of mind....holiness...I would like to add a little something to the mix....righteousness. What it is; whose it is; and where it comes from. Whatever righteousness is, it comes highly recommended. Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Mt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. First point we must all realise, is that the ‘righteousness’, referred to above is Christ’s own righteousness. Not our own, not someone else’s, not the church’s. Isaiah said our own righteousness is worthless, so what we must answer is the question “what is Christ’s righteousness?” For it is that righteousness that we must hunger and thirst for, it is that righteousness we must seek for on equal priority to His kingdom. We all, as professing Christians, have accepted Christ’s kingdom. We have all acknowledged His propitiation and atoning death. But His righteousness? What is that? And how do we get it? Paul answers both questions here… Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. So the Galatians were thinking that they could be justified by following the law, but Paul says it must be by faith. And he equates justification with righteousness. The cross, the shedding of blood, justifies us. Throughout Biblical history the sacrifice of the animal and the shedding of blood removed sin from being an impediment in the relationship and a wall between God and man. By grace we are ‘accounted’ righteous in the sight of a holy God, and we then have free access to the throne of grace. But did God desire that Israel continually sin because they had a “get out of jail free card” grazing in the back paddock? Not at all. In fact several times God showed His great displeasure in the rivers of blood that constantly flowed from the temple altar. Isaiah 1:10 ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? 13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. What is going on here? It was in Eden that God Himself set up the sacrificial system. And a whole range of various sabbaths and holy days and services and sacrifices for the express purpose of gaining forgiveness, yet here is God saying He wants them to stop? What’s missing? Isaiah in the next few verses gives the answer. And after, John the Baptist confirms this. 16 ¶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: Matthew 3:7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 ¶ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Righteousness is holiness; likeness to God, and God is love. (1 John 4:16) It is conformity to the law of God, for “all Thy commandments are righteousness” Psalm 119:72, and “love is the fulfilling of the law”. Rom. 13:10 Righteousness is love, and love is the true light and life of God. The righteousness of God is embodied in Christ, and we receive righteousness by receiving Him. 2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. It has been said that we take but two things to heaven with us from this world. The souls we have have helped save through our witness, and our characters. Eternity is dependant upon what characters we develop now, whether Christ’s or the prince of this world. That character is dependant upon repentance...a change of mind as has been mentioned several times. And that righteous character is essential to our eternal destinies. Eph.4:17 ¶ This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,….22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Thus righteousness is both imputed, (justification) and imparted (sanctification.) Both are essential, both are Christ’s, and both can be ours if we have but faith. Rom.5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Romans 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit…4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I don't know of any groups that believe they are 'good enough' for heaven on account of their law-keeping, care to enlighten us? While I'm on that subject, is not refraining from sin the same as keeping the law? Is that so wrong?

That is very coo..l. Just outside church this morning I passed by a tree with bright red flowers all over it and half a dozen lorakeets feeding on the nectar. Noisy but busily having the time of their lives. One sat on a bunch of flowers an arm's length from where I was standing watching. I love birds...they are a magnificent part of God's creation.

I love Isaiah's instruction on how to observe Sabbath. "If thou turn way thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable, and shalt honour Him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words; then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father, for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it" Isa 58:13,14. Couple that with the commandment that forbids normal secular work (priests worked on Sabbath but their work was holy) and you have a day set for a blessing.

Prayer has more power than we realise. But not a specific prayer as if one is better than another...just empty your heart out before God and know He hears you and will answer. Know that God loves your sister far more than you...He truly cares and wants to release her from this evil but cannot do so without our personal willingness to cooperate. Maybe it is your prayers He is waiting for. Our prayers are mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds. Life is a warfare. The enemy of souls will not leave you unmollested as you go to battle on behalf of your sister. You must prepare to commit come what may. Your sister may even for a time turn against you and your children. But you must not blame her. If she is involving herself in occult practices, you can be sure that demons have managed to gain a great deal of influence over her feelings and mind, and she will be becoming accustomed to react to those thoughts and feeling in a way that pleases Satan. But God is greater. Don't give up. Pray consistently (2 -3 times a day) and earnestly. Your sister's life is at stake...be serious, and be commited. Don't go into this battle unless you yourself are fully right with God. Let there be no unconfessed or any sin unrepented of or Satan will surely take advantage of this and defat your attempts at every turn. Condemnation and accusation against you personally will come to you...let it be for good reasons, like resentment on Satan's part and hatred, not because you are guilty. And finally, don't do it alone. Find some good faithful strong loving Christian friends who are willing to help you fight in this battle. Ones who know who they are in God. Who refuse to relinquish the ground to the enemy. Fighting the Lord's battles is a serious business. When we wish to confront the enemy front on on his battleground, we need all the help we can get. "Without Me ye can do nothing".

A couple of years after first becoming a Christian I married, and my wife and I moved into an old house which we vacated after a year for something more comfortable and a little bigger. But that year was filled with a series of demonic visitations which freaked my wife out (she could see them) and make me angry (I could sense them). Once a demon appeared to my wife in the form of a human man dressed very tidily and respectfully leaning on the door lintel. The moment she called me and woke me, (this was about 3am as she was tending to our firstborn baby) I woke and could immediately sense the evil presence in the house. I would charge through the house in righteous indignation demanding they leave. They would. A very interesting house. MY children had similar experiences later in another house we lived in in another city. Noises...footsteps...etc but nothing physically threatening, just emotionally unsettling. Calling upon the name of the Lord ALWAYS had a positive effect. Positive for us anyway. The thing regarding Catholicism, even a characteristic peculiar to them, is the church's compromising with pagan belief systems. The result can be seen all around the world with different faith systems that incorporate both Catholic and pagan rituals...a clear example of this is in the Carribean with the mix of occult voodoo and Roman priestcraft.

I don't know how Peter knew it was Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus @miss muffet but I am sure it wasn't facial recognition, unless he had a photo? That said, I agree we will recognise others in heaven. And we are going to be surprised at the number who will be there, that we didn't think would be, and the number missing, we were convinced were sitters.

People divorce for all manner of trivial reasons today, then start new adulterous relationships with new partners. In your case however, divorce, if you want it, is entirely justifiable, both Biblically and emotionally. The pain and sense of betrayal for you must be intense, and I can empathise fully. That said, if you desire to continue to be married to your husband, healing will take time, ad great effort on both your parts to regain the trust and emotional unity you once had. As others have said, counselling...forgiveness...and perhaps a renewal of marriage vows would be advisable...maybe not essential, but certainly advisable, and God can heal anything. But any contemplation of a continuing relationship must start with forgiveness. That alone can be very difficult, and even once accomplished, the distrust and fear of further offences will remain a long time. One thing to remember. It is your choice. Don't make that choice out of any feeling of being faithful to a former marriage covenant, or fear of hurting your husbands 'feelings'. That covenant is now broken. And it was not your fault. You will now, if you so choose to remain, be embarking on a whole new relationship which is going to take a lot of hard work. But if God is in this, then your renewed relationship and life together can be even better than the old. And because of forgiveness and healing power of God, can be an even greater testimony to the love and faithfulness of God than you thought previously possible.

I certainly hope Worthy does not change. In granting all a fair hearing, Worthy is granting all an opportunity to vindicate their own belief system. This can only be a good thing. If they cannot vindicate their own beliefs in comparison to what is being newly taught them, or in comparison to what others reveal about their faith here, the onus is then on them to change...not Worthy. But I would imagine Worthy's mission would be to give all time and opportunity to learn. This can be done only in an open environment, where even intoleration and self-righteousness is tolerated.

We are all aware of frienduff's (above) frequent warnings against modern ecumenism. I agree. Associated with this is the (mistaken) focus of the church upon the Middle East. Why a mistake? For the very reasons frienduff's warnings go so often unheeded and ignored. And it is intimately linked to the way we view prophecy. The Protestant Reformers knew for certain that in the prophetic flow of time, the lion (Babylon), the bear (Persia), the leopard (Greece), and the dragon (Rome) (see Daniel 7,8 and the first beast of Revel. 13) had already ruled the world. They also knew that Rome had been divided into ten kingdoms when the barbarians carved up the empire. They recognised this because they were descendants of those barbarians, and living on the very territories then established. Modern Europe attests to the truth of prophecy. They knew all too well that the predicted Antichrist was to arise among these ten kingdoms of Western Europe. They saw clearly and distinctly that they were living in the time period of the little horn. The historicist hermeneutical method made it quite simple. A correct understanding of Bible prophecy gave them the unmistakable mandate to unmask this system which had usurped the prerogatives of Christ and adulterated the truth of God!! In a letter to Spalatin on February 24, 1520, Luther wrote: “I am practically cornered, and can hardly doubt any more, that the Pope is really the Antichrist, whom the world expects according to a general belief, because everything so exactly corresponds to the way of his life, action, words, and commandments.” When Luther wrote his book, To the German Nobility, his friends, fearing for his safety, asked him to suppress it. To this request Luther replied: “We here are of the conviction that the Papacy is the seat of the true Antichrist. . . . personally I declare that I owe to the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist.” Two months after Luther made this statement, his book, On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church [notice that he is referring to the papacy as Babylon], was published. In it, Luther spoke of the papacy as “nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist. . . . For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny.” In 1540, Luther wrote: “Oh, Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us thy day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan in Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the apostle Paul wrote (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4) that will oppose and exalt himself above God and exalts his own above the commandments of God.” Concerning the Man of Sin, Luther affirmed that the Antichrist “sitteth not in a stable of fiends, or in a swine-sty, or in a company of infidels, but in the highest and holiest place of all, namely, in the temple of God. . . .Is not this to sit in the temple of God, to profess himself to be the Ruler in the whole church? What is the temple of God? Is it stones and wood? Did not Paul say, “The temple of God is holy, which temple you are?” To sit—what is it but to reign, to teach, and to judge? Who from the beginning of the church has dared to call himself master of the whole church but the Pope alone? None of the saints, none of the heretics ever uttered so horrible a word of pride.” Luther was not alone in testifying to this. All other major reformers, both prior to Luther and since, were in unanimous agreement. Yet today we have countless leaders of Protestantism who with their futurist hermeneutic pretend none of this happened. And their blind followers glibly accept everything they are told, following them back into the arms of Rome. A thousand years of extremely important history involving the lives of millions of martyrs for the faith and revealing Satan’s craftiness and cunning and deceptions, is cast aside as if God didn’t know it was going to happen and left it out of prophecy. Jumping from pagan Rome to a yet unfulfilled future, over a thousand years of essential Christian history is trampled upon as if of no account. And by adopting Rome’s own creation through its Jesuit agents, modern theologians have effectively hidden the Antichrist from view in favour of conjecture and guesswork. And not only so, but the real and very dangerous error of distorting and twisting the truth of who the true focus and target of Satan’s lies and deceptions. That is the church, not the nation of Israel. And through futurism our attention is diverted away from the true source of the coming crisis. We are directed to look at the middle east. To some future overlord who will enter the political scene with guns blazing wreaking havoc and vengeance against Israel. And while everyone takes the bait, bait cast out by Rome 400 years ago in the form of futurism, hook, line, sinker, and boat, Rome quietly is working throughout the world to return her wayward daughters to herself. Mother has put out the call to come home, and Protestants by the droves are responding. Why would Satan, after 6000 years of focused malevolent and concerted war against God’s people, suddenly take a left turn and attack a nation that no longer has any relevance to God’s purposes in taking the gospel to the world, and thus leaving the church to continue its mission unmolested? No folks, Revelation informs us that the whole world will be deceived into submitting to the Antichrist. This includes the vast majority of Christians who in their ignorance of scripture and their blind sheep-like following of their equally deceived pastors and teachers, are searching the horizon in vain expectation of a coming warlord to attack Israel while leaning over the back fence in apparent friendship is the true Antichrist wooing all to join her once again in passive submission to her traditions, superstitions, and heresies. In Matthew 24 Jesus is warning the church!!!, not Israel, concerning the threats of the final days. What did He say? That in our day we would see nation against nation, wars, and rumours of wars. We recognise the increase of violence throughout society (as in the days of Noah see Gen.6:11) not just internationally, but in our homes and in the streets outside our letterboxes, as starkly fulfilling this prophecy. And its getting worse, as has been reiterated in many posts above. But allow me to open your eyes to something very few recognise. Remember, this is about God's church. Jesus said in verse 9 "Then they (who? the nations mentioned previously) shall deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and e shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake". So what has just happened? Note that this event occurs after the previous mentioned violence...after the disasters of verse 7...(which we are also seeing today!)...which means that verse 9 is next. Verse 9 is what we have to look forward to. An amalgamation of all nations in opposition to the church! Which amalgamation is what frienduff above was speaking of, and which we witness in politics and religion taking place right now. Soon they will succeed. Then my friends, all hell is going to break loose, for it is Satan's last final ditch stand against Christ before He comes. This is the true armageddon. Not the world against Israel. No, Satan's greatest enemy and most vile hatred is toward the church. It is the world, all nations, against God's people, the church. Prepare people, it is not far away.

Fair enough. As for me I like cheese and ice cream too much to be vegan. But I lost my taste for meat a long time ago.

Vegan before the fall.....vegan in heaven. Why not prepare your taste buds now?

Used to get up at 4am to milk the cows. Find all the water pipes frozen...some taps burst...equipment not working (including my own) ...hands freezing to the metal pipework...too old for that now. In fact, truth be told, too old for that then. Now enjoying odd days of 1070F or more. Absolutely love it.

Far out. I left NZ partly because I couldn't stand the cold. Now living in Melbourne Australia. How cold? Oh, in a cold winter we could get as low as ummmm ...-50C (230F). If I was from the north of the US or Canada I would have moved south at birth...even if I had to crawl all the way.

When we read someones input that differs from our own belief, we must always be cognisant of the possibility that God is using that person to teach you something new. The temptation is, even when we are considering that possibility, that we go to the Bible to prove them wrong, rather than going to the Bible to see if their belief is founded on anything other than opinion. If there is Biblical support, and it seems to contradict other Bible texts that support what you believe, then the weight of all the evidence must be taken into account. That takes time and effort. Sometimes its easier just to get offended and take a self righteous stand that "I am right and everyone else is a heretic". Or if we are lazy, we go to some one we know who agrees with us and use their arguments against the new teaching...little realising that God may be talking to them too. Thing is, the time is coming when we are all, as individuals, going to have to take a stand and defend our beliefs...sometimes before courts who are going to charge us for heresy against the state sanctioned religion to come. Can you defend your self without recourse to others? Can you defend what you believe without being offended? "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear". Sadly, many can give no better reason for believing in a particular doctrine other than ...because our parents did...or its popular...or because that is what my church teaches. But the beauty of this forum is that it is open to anyone. It engenders discussion. A lack of divisiveness or unity does not necessarily mean that everyone has the truth. Majorities have never been right all the time. In fact, it is a good thing, a beneficial thing for everyones faith that a great divergence of backgrounds and belief systems should be freely welcomed. It engenders study...thought...humility...self appraisal...or it should. It is also a reflection upon one of the founding tenets of American Republicanism. Freedom of religion...speech...and press.

Deleted. Confused over spring/autumn...that's the trouble of old age and living upside down...or down under.

First, about Pentecost. I cannot remember the scriptural evidence, but when I studied this many years ago I saw that when Jesus returned to heaven after the resurrection, it was actually in heaven He fulfilled the type as in the original feast of firstfruits and presented Himself as the wave offering before the Father. Then He returned after the Father confirmed His acceptance of the offering, to encourage the disciples and prepare them for His final ascension. When He returned to His Father, He took up the role of High Priest. This took place on Pentecost. Jesus was anointed in heaven as Priest, and as in the OT where Moses was instructed to pour out the oil (holy Spirit) to anoint the priests until the oil fell off the garments onto the ground, so the holy Spirit was passed on from the Father to the Son and to the disciples as they too became anointed priests unto God. For every type in the sanctuary service, the antitype was fulfilled literally in the ministry of Messiah. Passover...feast of firstfruits...and Pentecost were spring feasts, and fulfilled early in the Christian age/period. Now we are in the autumn or towards the end of the religious calendar year, the autumn feasts are fulfilling. The feast of trumpets...day of atonement...tabernacles. Feast of trumpets was a warning in preparation for the day of atonement. It was a herald for the arrival and final consummation of the high priests ministry. This I believe was met in antitype with the global/worldwide proclamation of the soon second coming by various people of God in different faiths in the early 19th century. This was followed by the antitype of the day of atonement which for the Jew was a time of intense personal introspection...a time of judgement, wherein God would cut off from the people of Israel anyone who hadn't fully repented of sin. This was their final opportunity to surrender before the 'new year' began. This also was a time of spiritual cleansing not just for the people, but also for the sanctuary. (Levit.16). Just as the sins of the people throughout the previous years had been confessed and transferred through the blood into the temple or sanctuary, so also take the Lamb of God take upon Himself the sins of mankind, and as High Priest presented Himself before the Father in the heavenly sanctuary. Jesus was both victim and priest, ministering His own blood before the altar. There in heaven our sins are recorded in the books, just as the blood was sprinkled before the altar of incense and the veil. On the day of atonement the high priest offered a goat upon which no sins were confessed. The blood of this animal represents the righteousness of Christ and the cleansing of guilt and the blotting out of all the records of sin for those who accepted His sacrifice. I believe this event is taking place in heaven as we speak. We are currently living in the antitypical day of atonement waiting the coming of our Lord when He finishes His work as High Priest, leaves the heavenly temple and returns as King of Kings. Then when we return to heaven with Him we then celebrate the feast of tabernacles, rejoicing in our salvation. I know, not a popular interpretation. But it makes perfect sense when we take into account Daniel 8:14 as pertaining to the heavenly sanctuary (as no earthly sanctuary was then in existence) at the fulfilling of the 2300 days/years...October 22, 1844. (The 2300 years began at the same time as the 490 years spoken of in Daniel 9:24. If you want a more detailed and fuller explanation for the above, I can readily comply.

I have somewhat of a different view, if I may share it. First, I believe the concept of a future 7 years period is bogus. Yes, I know everyone believes in it, however, the idea is only of very recent origin, and was never taught prior to the 16th century, at least as far as I know. I see it as a part of the counter-reformation...an idea to disguise and distract Christians away from the reformers' unanimous agreement that the Papacy was the antichrist of scripture. It was a Jesuit, Ribera, who created this future 7 year concept because if accepted, then if the antichrist was yet to come, then Rome gets off scot free right? Darby and Schofield ran with the idea a little later and became an integral part of dispensationalism. But there is another take on the 70 weeks Daniel 9 which is seldom given any real thought or consideration. That there was no gap between the 69th week and the 70th....that the 70th week was not about Israel and a future Antichrist, but about Israel and her Messiah. Beginning on 27ad (provable) when Christ was baptised, (provable), the midst of the week with the removal of the sacrifice and oblation being Calvary, 30-32 ad, concluding 3 1/2 years later. This final 3 1/2 years covers the time the apostles were instructed to go "only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel", for Israel had been given 490 years...God in His grace and mercy would not give up on them despite the murder of His Son, thus giving them opportunity to repent and truth to the gospel trusting in the righteousness of Christ...and many did. The stoning of Stephen however around the time of the end of the 70 years by the leaders of the nation sealed the nations fate. Refusing to repent of their evil, the rulers condemned themselves and their nation...the gospel shortly thereafter then went to the gentiles. So without a 7 year countdown in the future what can we expect? What of Israel? Well, I'll be honest. Maybe Israel will build a temple, maybe even with the help of evangelical Christianity believing they are assisting God in fulfilling prophecy. Personally, I don't think it has anything whatsoever to do with prophecy. The scripture says that the man of sin, the son of perdition will appear in the temple of God, proclaiming that he is God. Right? We all know this verse...it is familiar to all of us and is really the foundation verse upon which all of futurism is built. Yet it falls down in one very important fact. No way, no how, could any future temple in Jerusalem, built to re-establish sacrifices and rituals by an ungodly apostate religious system/nation which would deny the very God the nation murdered, be called the temple of God. God will have nothing to do with such an abomination. So what of 2 Thess. 2:4? Easy. What is God's temple in the NT? There are actually 3. There's the temple in heaven. We can discount that...antichrist aint goin there. There's the temple of our bodies. Antichrist ain't goin there either...unless I give him permission, through his mark...and he aint gettin that. The prophecy however is adamant. The man of sin is going into the temple...regardless of anyone giving permission. Therefore the answer is that he was going to enter the church. That is the only logical and Biblical conclusion. It is a fanatical focus on Israel and the middle east that blinds people to this truth. And the truth is that the man of sin entered into the church 1500 years ago. Fulfilling every single prophetic criteria demanded of it, Rome fufills every prophecy regarding the Antichrist down to the minutest detail. Unless of course you opt for the Antichrist's own doctrine of a future 7 week tribulation and a future antichrist, thus disgusing himself and deceiving everyone. Which itself fufills prophecy. So the millenium? Consider the final plagues. Consider the absolute global devastation that ensues. Apart from rivers turning to blood...boils and itches and horrific sunburn etc, think about the following. First, the great earthquake. The cities of the nations fall. Not just one or two in a certain area, but total destruction of cities all over the planet. "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found". (I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture either). But up to the time of this earthquake, I believe the church will still be here. Those Christians are witnesses to the justice of God's wrath. Every court case needs at least two witnesses. The covenant suit being tables against this world requires us to be here to attest to its just and righteous outcome. But prior to the 7th angel (Rev. 16:17) Jesus declared, behold, I come as a thief. Then I believe will be fulfilled John 14:1-4. We are taken to heaven. As we go the earthquake comes to those remaining...all the wicked and rejecters of the gospel...followed by hail with stones weighing between 25 and 35 kilograms...70 odd pounds...each. When I read the opinions above suggesting that we will be here to clean up the mess...the dead bodies of man and beast crushed in every city and throughout all the wilderness areas....the pollution and destruction of cities and forests...as Jeremiah says, there will no man be left. (Jer. 4:23-25.) I want no part in such a clean up. I will remain in heaven until the end of the 1000 years when the new Jerusalem descends with all the saints. Then shall the wicked be resurrected to face judgement. In their desperation and at the instigation of Satan and his demons, who alone had been the occupants of the earth the previous 1000 years (chained by circumstances) they see their only last hope of survival as being to attack the city of God and take it by force. Stupid yeah, I know, but in the circumstances....God doesn't much around. Nothing more needs to be proven; the character of both adversaries, Christ and Satan, are laid bare for the universe to see and with no cause to doubt. Everyone, even the devil himself, will finally have to concede, begrudgingly, that Jesus is Lord. Then the same fire that descends out of heaven that destroys them all, cleans the entire planet from every trace of its former corruption. The new Jerusalem becomes the capital of the universe, where the Father and the Son shall dwell forever. The scriptures say that the meek shall inherit the earth. Thus we will be free to live where we want...build our own houses and live peacefully in an earth made new...where lions will lay down with lambs, and no more war. For ever.

The establishment of two trees was to give Adam and Eve a choice. God did not want a people that could not choose to love and obey. The choice wasn't about eating, it was about trust and authority. The tree of life in the garden of Eden was to be eaten from as a sign of dependance and recognition of God for the life A&E had. So long as they ate from that tree alone, they were demonstrating their trust and their willingness to obey. So long as they continued in that same faithfulness, and taught their children the same, all mankind would have been in a far far better place today than it is. However, as we all know, they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They chose to believe the devil, and distrust God. They believed the devil when he inferred that God was holding something back from A&E that was to their benefit. He said they also could be gods, thus by forbidding them to eat of the tree, the true God didn't want any competition. All lies as we know...or do we? Many today still believe God is a God of selfish tyranny not wanting what is best for us. As it turned out, the lie that A&E would not die, was proved false. And their conditional immortality (conditional on eating of the tree of life) was removed from their grasp as angels guarded access, "unless sinners lived forever".

It was your arrogance and lack of grace I was alluding to...a common characteristic you reveal to anyone you disagree with. But your pride prohibits you from recognising it. As to the various sects and movements that stemmed from the Millerites...that is true. When God moves in power and brings light and truth to a Christian world languishing in ignorance and worldliness; to a Protestant nation no longer fulfilling its destiny; to a world bordering on the most dramatic and mind-blowing event in human history and needing to be warned concerning it; to a world forgetting the dark and dangerous teachings and practices of the Papacy....its a sure bet that Satan isn't going to refrain from confusing the issue. The task now is to recognise that light in the midst of all the clamouring competing red herrings, without allowing your bigotry, pride, arrogance and over-inflated ego get in the way.