rollinTHUNDER

What do you see as the test? Cheers

If some refused to take the mark of the beast, would they not be among those who will be tested? It does not appear that these would be kept from the hour.

Hey Last Daze, The KJV says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience..." I believe this is telling us that they patiently kept or endured in His Word = obedience. We know that He promised to vomit the lukewarm out of His mouth, and the devil will cast some into prison in the church in Smyrna, that they may be tried for ten days... All of the clues should be used in His message to the seven churches, not just the promise given to the church of Philadelphia. I don't buy into the nonsense some have concocted about the so-called seven different church ages. We are still in the same age of grace awaiting His return. As to "who" they are that will be kept from the hour or time of testing, I also believe Jesus told us who they are in Matthew 24 & 25. These are the elect (chosen) who are ready when He appears in the clouds. Many try to define the term "elect" to find out who they are, but they most often ignore the rest of His answer that plainly tells who they are. These are His faithful servants, whereas His evil or unfaithful servants will be caught unaware. If that still wasn't enough, He then gave parables or clues as to who His elect are, but most scholars ignore chapter 25 entirely. The wise virgins will simply be ready and the foolish will not. If the wise are taken, they stand a great chance of not being present for the time of testing. No need to test those who have already passed the test, but the same can not be said of the lukewarm and/or the cold, who fall away before He comes.

Hi Last Daze, Here's my take. Two questions come immediately to mind here. What exactly is the hour, and what is this coming trial? An hour can have two meanings. It can be either a literal measurement of sixty minutes, or it can also be a brief period or short span of time. Then we have the trial, which is said to be a testing of all the inhabitants of the earth, with the exception of those who will be kept from this hour. If those who are kept from the hour of trial are raptured beforehand, as I believe they will be, then those who are left will then be tested. If people missed the rapture, it seems that the only logical thing that the inhabitants of the earth would be tested for afterward, would be whether or not they will take the mark of the beast. I believe this would determine who will become martyrs and who will remain on the earth in their mortal bodies (sheep). Revelation 14:9-13 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.” Only four types of people will remain after the rapture, martyrs who will refuse the mark of the beast, the remnant of Jews, and the sheep and goats that will be judged when Christ returns to judge the nations. If everyone, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave are forced to take the mark of the beast, this will be a monumental task that will require a global government. No wonder this beast has ten horns. It's highly likely the world will be divided up into ten regions. Then the ten kings will be empowered to implement and enforce the forbidden mark of the beast. Revelation 17:12-13 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. (13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. So it appears that the hour of trial that will come upon all of the inhabitants of the earth is very likely to be the same hour the ten kings will appear on the world stage. This will definitely not be a literal 60 minute hour. It will take at least several days to accomplish the gathering and beheading of believers who reject the mark of the beast. So I would guess the hour of trial will last at least a week, two or possibly even a month. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, (10) and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (11) And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, (12) that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. I believe the strong delusion also relates to the mark of the beast as well. The false prophet will pull the wool over the unbelievers eyes with his lying wonders. He will probably make the mark of the beast sound wonderful and say how necessary it is for security purposes, not to mention how it will prevent identity theft, etc. But it's just a strong delusion for those who do not love the truth. Revelation 19:19-21 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. (20) But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. (21) The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. Conclusion: I don't believe we can positively know exactly how long the hour of trial will last, as scripture does not say. But I do believe it will be a short time when the mark of the beast is implemented. I believe the mark of the beast will be the strong delusion God sends upon the unbelievers. I also believe the time of testing or hour of trial will come at the time of the end, after the great tribulation and the rapture. And I believe hour of trial will be before the second coming, because those who are ready and go in the rapture, along with the saints who will be martyred for refusing the mark, will all be returning together with Christ at the second coming. For God will not avenge the blood of the martyrs until after the last one is killed. Cheers

I agree. I believe there will be a short window, but also not many people will have it. Those that don't may be getting a quart of wheat, or three quarts of barley for a days wages? The Central bankers are already trying to get rid of cash. When that day comes the sheep will be powerless, so God's people need to be prepared. Cheers

So true. Most people look at you like you're nuts when you tell them. Totally clueless - it's scary out there!!! lol

Nice! Glad to see you and your husband are paying attention, but that is only the first step. I'd be careful with bonds as well, though. Lindsey Williams who made friends with some of the elite years ago, was the chaplain in the 1970's when they were constructing the Alaskan oil pipeline, says to get out of paper entirely. He said the elite told him that everything that is written on paper will only be worth the paper it is written on. He said the only thing that will save you is gold and silver. Not gold and silver certificates, but only physical medals that you can touch. He also said you need to get out of debt, buy a gun, food, water and toiletries for a time of crisis. When the crash comes, everything written on paper will become worthless, money, stocks, bonds, mortgages, pensions....... Just a heads up. Cheers

I'm with you, Spockster, Believing the rapture and second coming will be fulfilled in the same day is like believing Christ died, was buried and resurrected all on the same day as well. Gentile believers today just don't get that Christ fulfilled each one of the spring feasts on there appointed times; Pass over, feast of unleavened bread and feast of first fruits. And He will likewise fulfill the fall feasts when He returns as well. It is widely believed that the rapture will occur on the feast of trumpets. Nine days later is the Day of Atonement, and two weeks later is the feast of Tabernacles. These feast days point to Christ and are all about Him. But they are mere shadows of things to come, as Christ is the substance, as He is the fulfillment of each one of them (Col. 2:17). The main events that are future are: Rapture, Armageddon and Christ saving Israel (remnant), and the coronation of the King of kings (millennial reign). I think what trips most people up who believe this is when they read that Christ will raise them up on the last day. They don't seem to realize that the last day here, represents the Sabbath Rest, the Day of the Lord and will last 1000 years. Him raising them up speaks of the resurrection bodies of the righteous who will return to reign with Him. So the saints will be resurrected and reign with Him during the millennium is all that it is really saying. Yet so many times people use this as the timing for the rapture. Oh well, I guess they'll find out eventually, one way or another. Cheers.

Hi firestormx, I believe we discussed this many moons ago in a PM late one night (early morning). 2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: I see these as two different comings. The reason there are two comings given in Christ' answer is because of the way the question was asked. His disciples asked Him a three part question: .................Tell us, (1)when will these things be, (2)and what will be the sign of your coming (3)and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3) Christ went on to answer the last two. Most people ignore chapter 25, assuming chapter 24 is the physical second coming, but it is not. It's the gathering of His elect (rapture for those who are ready = faithful servants.) Chapter 25 is His second coming, when He comes to judge the nations, separating the sheep from the goats or those who survive the tribulation. But before He can judge the nations, scripture says that He must first judge the house of God (1 Pet. 4:17-18). And this is what we see in chapter 24:29-31 thru 25:30. Many assume that the entire church will be ready and go in the rapture, but I believe that is nothing more than wishful thinking. There are three types of believer (hot, lukewarm & cold). Many will fall away before the Lord comes in the clouds, as the love of many will grow cold (Matt 24:12). This will leave two types of believer when He comes, those who are on fire for the Lord, and also the lukewarm. Unfortunately, the lukewarm will be vomited out of the Lords mouth, and I believe these will be martyred in the end. But those on fire, these are His faithful servants and they will be ready, while the lukewarm will be the unfaithful servants who are caught unaware of the Lords coming. So there we see the (hot - lukewarm & cold), but since the cold fall away before He comes, His parables mostly relate to the hot & lukewarm, until the end of chapter 25. Cheers

Hi Suzanne, To keep watch means to be ready. He gave us signs that we might know when His coming is near, right at the door. Here's my take from my website. You can skip the first paragraph... http://roberthunt.tateauthor.com/about-the-boo/ Cheers

Hey Spockster, You might want to re-think that bit about more free time after retirement. I retired 2 years ago and now I'm working more hours, averaging about 47 hours per week. Of course, it's different now, being that I'm caring for my mom who has stage 4 colon cancer that has spread to her lungs. Last Dec. the Dr. gave her 6 mo, to a year to live, but she has other plans. This is my first post since the change, whenever that was?

Thanks to all who have participated. I was hoping to have more weigh-in, so I'll hold off on my thoughts for a little longer. To Marilyn: I can see your skills as a teacher shining through, as you've done your homework. You are the only one so far that has caught onto the three measures of meal, which I believe plays a very key part. However, I believe this parable goes deeper still. It kind of reminds me of the parable of the mustard seed. It was so small, yet grows so large. I see the three measures as well, but there are two words that really catch my eye. I'll discuss them later. To angels4u: There are some good nuggets in what you have pulled up as well, but I think it goes deeper. To Ezra: I'm not sure what you're focusing on here, but there will be no sin, corruption or false teaching associated with the kingdom of heaven. However, I believe it relates to the time of the end as well, but Mystery Babylon has no part in the kingdom of heaven. She is a key player in the kingdom of darkness. Are there any others who care to share their thoughts? Cheers

This is one of our Lord's shortest parables. Matthew 13:33 (KJV) Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. Does anyone care to share their interpretation or guess what this parable means?

This corresponds with Matt. 24:29-31 (rapture). 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The rapture, when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Then the blindness of the tribes of Israel will be removed, and they will look up and know that their redemption draws near. Cheers Hi rollinTHUNDER, So good to see your smiling face. Thank you for popping in & contributing. I hear your view on when the rapture occurs, but I wont get into that as there are many other threads on that topic. (Not that I thought you wanted to discuss that.) However I do see Matt. 24: 29 – 31 as the same events as Rev. 1: 7. That is something we can agree on. Hi Marilyn, You won't get into when the rapture occurs, because you have been led to believe it happens sometime before Daniel's 70th week begins, is that correct? I used to believe that too, but you should know that Christ laid it all out, without concealing anything. He did not call it the rapture, though. He called it the appearing of the sign of the Son of man, when He will come in the clouds, and then send His angels to gather His elect, which is where much confusion begins for many believers. Many are told that this is His physical second coming to the earth, even though scripture does not indicate He ever touches down after gathering the elect in the clouds. Most people simply assume this is referring to His second coming, and they ignore the rest of His answer in Matthew chapter 25, which is where He mentions the second coming. It seems that many don't want to get into this, because they want to keep holding on to their false hope of a pre-trib rapture, which is not found anywhere in God's Word. And it's not like Jesus failed to mention it, because He laid it all out, which includes both, the rapture as we call it today and His second coming. Verse 31 is key in both chapters. Matt. 24:31 = Rapture Matt. 25:31 = Second coming These are both judgments. His judgment begins with the righteous (1 Pet. 4:17-18), and ends with the nations or sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46). The following passage includes both of these judgments. Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (them which destroy the earth = goats) Many that believe in a so-called pre-trib rapture, also believe He will come in secret, even though there's no scripture that supports that either. False hope is much like wishful thinking, but many don't seem to realize that they are only setting themselves up for a rude awakening. Either we want to know the truth or we don't. It's not going to happen according to our beliefs, but according to the fulfilling of His Word, whether we believe it or not, and whether we are ready or not. Every eye will see Him, so it won't be done in secret. Every believer who is ready when He appears will meet Him in the clouds, and those left on the earth will see the greatest event in the history of the world. It will be no secret. Israel's blindness will be ended at that time, as the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (Rom. 11:25). Every eye will see this event, as He said His coming would be like lightning coming from east to and shining even to the west (Matt. 24:27). So every eye will see, even the Jews or them who pierced Him. Then the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. This includes the Jews in the Promised Land, and the tribes of Israel which are still scattered in the nations of the world. Notice He did not say every kindred, tongue and nation, but only the tribes of the earth, which are the Jews who pierced Him that will mourn. Their eyes will be wide open at that time, and their blindness will be no more. They will look up and know their redemption is near, right at the door, and they will repent. Zechariah 10:6-12 “I will strengthen the house of Judah, And I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back, Because I have mercy on them. They shall be as though I had not cast them aside; For I am the Lord their God, And I will hear them. 7 Those of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, And their heart shall rejoice as if with wine. Yes, their children shall see it and be glad; Their heart shall rejoice in the Lord. 8 I will whistle for them and gather them, For I will redeem them; And they shall increase as they once increased. 9 “I will sow them among the peoples, And they shall remember Me in far countries; They shall live, together with their children, And they shall return. 10 I will also bring them back from the land of Egypt, And gather them from Assyria. I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon, Until no more room is found for them. 11 He shall pass through the sea with affliction, And strike the waves of the sea: All the depths of the River shall dry up. Then the pride of Assyria shall be brought down, And the scepter of Egypt shall depart. 12 “So I will strengthen them in the Lord, And they shall walk up and down in His name,” Says the Lord. Zechariah 12:10-11 And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The rapture can not occur before Daniel's 70th week, because that event will be the end of Israel's blindness. And if their blindness is removed before Daniel's 70th week, then they will not receive the one who is prophesied to come in his own name. Therefore, this is another reason the rapture occurs after the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24:29). Unfortunately, many have placed their faith in this false hope and they will not be prepared to endure until the end. If people are going to put all of their eggs into the pre-trib basket, I would hope that they are hoping for the best, but at least preparing for the worst. If not, I see a very rude awakening coming for them. The very first thing Christ told His disciple's who questioned Him about the sign of His coming was to not let anyone deceive them. But many have been taught that they will be out of harms way before anything bad happens. I hope many will start waking up, because we are about to enter perilous times and it will test our faith. Christ said that the love of many will grow cold, and Paul said there will come a falling away and the abomination of desolation before our gathering (2 Thes. 2:1-4). Christ also warned that He will vomit the lukewarm out of His mouth as well, so only His faithful servants will be ready, and again, this is not a pre-trib gathering. There will be no such thing. Cheers

This corresponds with Matt. 24:29-31 (rapture). 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The rapture, when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Then the blindness of the tribes of Israel will be removed, and they will look up and know that their redemption draws near. Cheers

Hmmmmm, a list of assumptions and misconceptions, things that most pre-tribbers claim. You should have a lot of fun with this thread.

I've seen where many of the pre-trib scholars associate these blood moons with the rapture, but they will end up with egg on their faces. On the other hand, the Jews were commanded to keep the feasts of the Lord throughout all of their generations (Lev. 23), for these are His appointed times. They have been ongoing since Moses taught them to the children of Israel. Most Gentile believers know very little about these feasts, since the Romans hijacked the Church, which led the world into the dark ages. Roman Catholicism has corrupted God's Holy days and replaced them with pagan holidays instead, which have evolved into the traditions of men and are still followed today by most believers. Most of us have heard that we are no longer under the Mosaic law and that we are under grace because Christ has already fulfilled the law. That is partially true. For those who believe, we are under grace and we have been set free from the bondage of the law. It is also true that Christ came to fulfill the law, however, He has not fulfilled all of the law yet as many believe. There are two comings of Christ, not just one. When Christ came in His first coming, He fulfilled the spring feasts (Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits) as He came as the Lamb of God to die for the sins of the world. 50 days after His resurrection He sent the Holy Spirit on the feast of weeks (Pentecost) and the Church was born. But there still remains three more feasts that have to be fulfilled (Trumpets, Atonement & Tabernacles). These will be fulfilled when Christ returns as the Lion of Judah. Christ said that He did not come to abolish the law and the prophets, but to fulfill them. He also said that not one jot or tittle will be removed from the law until (all) have been fulfilled. We know the three fall feasts still have to be fulfilled, as well as all of the prophecies that relate to His second coming, both in the Old and New Testaments. So contrary to popular belief, the law and the prophets have not yet been fulfilled, not entirely. Unfortunately, most Gentile believers today have no idea how significant these feasts are. Men have changed His times and seasons, but He will still complete His appointed times, whether men recognize them or not. Colossians 2:16-17 - "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." This has nothing whatsoever to do with these blood moons and all of the hype that goes with them. Cheers

Israel was scattered for well over 1900 years, so it seems obvious to me that they are the fig tree. I don't believe it can go on much longer. Christ said that generation will not pass before all of these things are fulfilled. Since people have been known to live well over 100 years of age, it seems logical to say that it could possibly go on until 2050-2060 before He returns, but I highly doubt God will stretch it that far. Especially when you consider that now, with Obama, even America has abandoned Israel, not to mention all of the chaos since the Arab spring and ISIS coming on the scene. There is another prophecy that must also be added into this (Hosea 6:2). Israel will be revived after 2 days (2000 yrs), after applying Psalm 90:4 and 2 Pet. 3:8. The birth and death of Christ have been debated forever it seems. Some believe He was born in 3-4 BC, which would place His burial somewhere around 27-28 AD. The Gregorian calendar is off a little as well, as we have 365 1/4 days each year, instead of 360 days. So again, it may be later than we think in this sense, as well. I think it's interesting, when you consider the sign or wonder that will appear in the heavens in Sept. 2017, the woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet......(Rev. 12). If that is also the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, then the great tribulation would end in 2024??? Can't be dogmatic about that, but just saying that it's very interesting to consider, and it falls well within the fig tree generation as well. I do expect Daniel's 70th week to begin near or during the fall feasts, and after 3 1/2 years the abomination of desolation will occur during the spring feasts or in the middle of the 7 years, as the son of perdition will put a stop to the daily sacrifices conducted during the spring feasts. Then sometime after the AoD, the beast in Rev. 13 is given authority to continue for 42 months (great tribulation), which I believe will end after 1290 days, according to Daniel 12:11-12. In case some are wondering, I do not believe in date setting. But I do believe the rapture will occur during the last trumpet of the feast of Trumpets (Yom Teruah), which just happens to be the only feast that no one knows the day or hour it will begin. This feast does not begin until the first sliver of the new moon appears and is witnessed. This feast is the first of the biblical fall feasts, followed by the Day of Atonement, and the feast of Tabernacles. Cheers

Matt. 24:29-31 occurs immediately after the tribulation of those days, but I think it's also important to remember that those days are shortened for the sake of the elect, otherwise no flesh will be saved (raptured). We can be certain that at least some of the living must be raptured, for there are rapture prophecies that must be fulfilled according to scripture. And these are those who Christ was warning, that they must be ready when He returns, unlike Israel, which was caught unaware during His first coming. I'm not promoting the post-trib theory, in which the rapture & second coming occur on the same day. I do not believe that is possible, for these are two separate events with several days in between them. Daniel 12:11-12 mentions 1290 days and 1335 days. I believe the tribulation will end after the 1290 days after the abomination of desolation, and the millennial kingdom will begin after 1335 days. So we see that the millennium does not have to begin immediately after the great tribulation ends. Those who are ready will go to the wedding supper, while the saints (lukewarm) who are not ready will be left and have to enter into the hour of trial or temptation (Rev. 3:10-11). These saints will then be overcome by the beast (Rev. 13:7), see also (Rev. 6:9-11, 14:13, and 20:4). Note: these martyrs are killed during the hour of trial after the mark of the beast has been implemented, but the martyrs killed before the rapture will be resurrected with the dead in Christ. As far as the timing goes, I lean towards a post-trib/pre-wrath rapture, but only His faithful servants will be ready. I believe that Christ will be returning to judge, first the house of God (1 Pet. 4:17-18), and then He will return to judge the nations before the millennium begins (Matt. 25:31-46). And I also believe these final judgments will also fulfill the fall feasts, which are God's appointed times, just as He fulfilled the spring feasts during His first coming. Cheers

The disciples asked Christ about the sign of His coming and the end of the age (Matt. 24:3). The trouble is that most scholars only study half of His answer, which is found in Matt. 24. But He actually concluded His answer in chapter 25. Verse 31 is key in both chapters. Matthew 24:31 = Rapture Matthew 25:31 = Second coming Cheers

Several years ago I read that the Hebrew calendar is off by some 220 years, give or take. It's much later than they think it is. And we are the generation that saw the fig tree bud (Israel returning to the Promised Land). Cheers

This is a weak and irrelevant argument bringing this up while discussing end times, in particular the rapture. Just because Christians have been tortured many times over many years has nothing to do with the final end times slaughter. Of course we all feel bad for any brother in Christ wrongly killed, but as long as satan has authority and a place in heaven, this will happen. We take some comfort in knowing they have gone to a better place and our at peace with our lord. And yes, there will be another massive slaughtering going on before Christ returns- worse than Holocaust. The book of revelation reminds us of that. Good point, Spockster! There is a huge difference between the martyrs that are killed before the rapture, and the ones who are killed after, the ones who are not ready when He appears. We see these martyrs in (Rev. 6:9-11, 13:7, 14:13 and 20:4). But the martyrs that die before He comes will be resurrected with the dead in Christ, while the others will enter into the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10). No wonder He warned us all to be ready.

Hi Oakwood, Both of these nations will be involved and come against Israel, along with others that surround Israel's outer ring of nation. Ezekiel 38:2-6 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of[a] Meshek and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshek and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush[c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you. I suspect we will see the Psalm 83 war and/or Isaiah 17 before Daniel's 70th week begins. But I think Ezek. 38 & 39 come at the time of the end. In Ezek. 38 they are coming to take a spoil, probably after attempting to wipe Israel off the map, but God, Himself, will intervene and glorify Himself. Then, some days later, all nations will be gathered against Jerusalem and they will Attack Christ and His army (Ezek. 39 = Armageddon). We'll see Gog again a thousand years later, as he is one of Satan's chief princes (angel). Cheers

We may be seeing the 1st seal now, but it's still too soon to tell. I'm thinking the economic collapse could also cause the 2nd seal. Free trade would be finished and it would be survival of the fittest. And we know a collapse will definitely play a part before the mark of the beast becomes law of the globe. I'm just saying. Cheers

That is right.We are not living in the seals now. How can you be so sure? ISIS could easily represent the rider on the white horse or possibly even Putin. I'm not saying they do, but we will certainly find out soon enough. I believe the hour is much later than some people might think. Have you noticed all of the lawlessness going on in Washington lately? How about the economic conditions here and everywhere else in the world as well. This is not the same world I grew up in, not even close! Hey RT, Why can't Hitler be seal 1, and WW2 and the aftermath seal 2 and 3? Just curious. I'm sure it probably looked that way some 80+ years ago, but it's too far from the end. Of course any large war could qualify seal 2's taking peace from the earth. But I think seal 3 is not compatible....when did they measure a qt. of wheat or 3 qts. of barley? I believe a global economic collapse will be the cause of the 3rd seal opening. 3rd seal opened - A black horse and rider with a pair of balances or scales, that weighs a measure of wheat for a penny, or three measures of barley for a penny.....I think one translation says this better, since this scripture was written during the time of the Roman Empire, it should say a measure of wheat for a denarius instead. The denarius was a days wages for the common man then. If they sold it for a penny that would make it so cheap, like just giving it away. I can't see that happening. However, if the economy collapses, hard times will be here immediately and no trucks or trains will be making deliveries. I could just imagine how the masses would hate this system so much that they would be begging for a better way to live. We don't know how long this will go on, but near the time of the end, that's when they will introduce the mark of the beast. And I suspect it will be voluntary at first, until a majority has taken it. Then those who don't have it will become the hunted. How's that? Cheers