Homosexuality and evolution

[Guest shiloh357]

If you want to reduce yourself to an animal, tear off your clothes beat your chest and bay at the moon, that is your perogative.

Do you believe that the full moon affects human behaviour, Shiloh? I don't.

You are missing the point. If you want to reduce yourself to an animal, if you want live in the delusion that some disgusting behavior like homosexuality can be justified by reducing man to the level of your bonobo apes, there is nothing I can do to stop you. That is what you want to believe.

I simply will not sacrifice my intelligence or self-respect to join you in your delusion.

[strict_catonian]

I seem to remember a pair of homosexual chinstrap penguins that lived in a zoo in the U.S. These 2 male's raised a baby penguin from the time it was an egg. Homosexuality has also been observed in rats I believe.

So homosexuality is not strictly a human oddity. It can be observed throughout the animal kingdom. I say this because rats and penguins have primitive brains. They are not being gay just for the fun of it, or through conscience choice or fad. God allows animals to be homosexual but not humans?

Edited May 10, 2009 by strict_catonian

[MorningGlory]

We also share 97.5% with mice....from the New Scientist:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2352...e-into-men.html

The switching off and on of genetic traits, different ones in different species, points to an economy of design. And makes perfect sense.

Good point MorningGlory. You have just pointed out something that must force me rethink some of my views. I am not giving up on evolution, just rethinking it.

Since reading the link you posted I have been jumping around to other connected links. What seems to be happening in evolutionary thought is a shift away from the idea that new genes are solely responsible for evolutionary change toward the view that new traits arise through the recombination of genes and particularly through timing in the switching off of functioning genes at critical moments in development.

For a full explanation see: <http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/genetic_neoteny_-_how_delayed_genes_separate_human_brains_fr.php>

Exactly....and such a complicated and perfectly designed system didn't come from nowhere but points to the Designer.

[Guest shiloh357]

I think you are missing the real point, Shiloh. We are animals. We may be animals with souls, but we are animals. You pretty much admitted that much when you agreed that humans are mammals.

What I am saying is that we are not animalistic. In other words, human behavior cannnot reduced by trying to claim that because you saw a chimp or ape do something that humans do, that there is some kind of genetic connection.

One of the effects of sin is that because we are morally and spiritually separated from God, our sinful flesh is unregulated. Homosexuality is not the product of some made up, bogus "genetic" connection with apes. It is the result of a sinful, depraved mind that is not connected with its Creator.

Many there are testimonies of homosexuals who have come to Christ and have been compeltely delivered from the sin of homosexuality. So much so, that it demonstrates that homosexuality is not a gentetic issue overwhich the individual has no control.

As I stated before homoseuxality can be compared to Pedophilia, Porn/child porn, adultery, bisexuality, incest, beastiallity and all other forms of sexual perversion/criminal activity. None of them can be blamed on genetics. They are the result of sin. Homosexuality is in the same basket with the rest of them.

Next time you watch a nature show on TV that features apes, careful that you don't yawn in response when you see one of them yawn. You don't want to acknowledge you are engaging in an automatic response typical of mammals in the animal kingdom.

sexual behavior cannot be compared with yawning. That is a ridiculous comparison.

I bet you believe in extra-terrestrials and that the pyramids were built by aliens.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, I thought I would answer your last statement first just because the topic of aliens interests me so.

First, it only makes sense that the Egyptians built the pyramids themselves. There is no reason to assume that any aliens had a hand in it.

Do I believe aliens have ever come to Earth? I'd say if they have they have not left much evidence of a visit.

Do I think life of some sort, bacterial or otherwise, exists on other worlds? Yes. We know that Earth is teaming with life and if it happened here then why not elsewhere. There are billions of galaxies, probably hundreds of billions of planets, so why would this be the only world to have life?

Your question is off topic, but it

[Believer1997]

You did not confirm that we are mammals. You agreed that we are warm blooded, but then so are birds; and all animals require oxygen, not just mammals. Thank you, though, for confirming in the second post that we indeed are mammals (I wonder, perhaps, if you were reluctant to write the word?).

I wasn't reluctant to write the word at all. I simply won't concede that humans are not merely animals or merely mammals.

Maybe we are going tooth and nail at one another without good reason. You see, I don't believe we are merely animals either.

Neither are we simply "higher animals."You are trying to justify homsexual sin by saying, "See, the apes do it, and since we look like apes, it must be okay to act like apes." Ultimately that is where your position leads.

I must clear up a misunderstanding. I do believe that we are simply the most advanced species on the planet, but not because I seek to justify homosexuality. My belief that homosexuality is not evil comes not from my view that humans are esentially advanaced mammals, but rather from my belief that there is no God. If there is no God then there is nothing written in stone. Does that mean I will use my position to justify physical violence, killing, war, genocide, and so? No. I live by the Golden Rule. Do nothing to others that you would not want done to yourself. I do not see that homosexuals, engaged in acts of mutual consent, do harm to anyone.

The way to convince me that homosexuality is wrong is to show me that homosexuals are harmful to myself and others. Show me that their behaviour harms society. The reason I have not persued this reasoning before now is that the topic of the thread is Homosexuality and Evolution. The reason I started talking about the Bonobos is because evolutionary scientists say that our closest evolutionary kin are the chimps. If Bonobos turn out to be the closest link then their homosexual behaviour, which is natural for them, may explain human behaviour. However, you said you won't discus this line of inquiry. Does that mean you don't want to discus the topic of the thread?

But Hitchey - If you live by the "The Golden Rule", A Christian principle

Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. Why would you not revere other doctrine set forth by God? I pray often for you and am glad that you are living by the Golden Rule. Though this concept may appear in many religions - it is most strongly held by Christians. God Bless You.

[Guest]

.... engaged in acts of mutual consent, do harm to anyone....

While Believers Are Stationed Away From Their True Home

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:10

They Answer To A Higher Authority

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Joshua 24:15

Therefore They Must Not Lie

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1 Corinthians 6:18

Nor Will They Pour Gasoline

These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Jude 1:16

Upon Dying Sinners

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jude 1:7-8

Facing The Wrath

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Ephesians 5:5-7

Of God

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:36

>>>>>()<<<<<

Dear Hitchey, Please Consider Jesus The Son Of God

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 53

There Is No Other Hope For Sinners

Love, Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

Oh, I thought it was just a little non-linear reasoning on your part. Well, I didn't bite. I don't think aliens built the pyramids. So how does that resolve anything? You really haven't demonstrated anything Shiloh.

Yes I did. I didn't really care if you believed aliens built the pyramids. That was not really the point. The point was that your position is just as ridiculous as believing such.

Why, because I don't believe aliens have come to Earth?

No, because your position your doesn't deserve serious consideration from thinking people.

Does that mean you don't want to discus the topic of the thread?

I guess you really cannot see how silly it is to try and understand humanity by studing apes.

There you go again (to quote Ronald Reagan). You are not saying anything to counter my position. I win by default if you keep that up.

I am not trying to win a debate with you. I am not even willing to debate the issue with you in any serious manner because it is so utterly ridiculous. Your comparison of humans to apes is simply beneath my intelligence. I respect myself too much to argue about alleged "homosexual apes."

As far as physiology, biology and chemistry go you are just plain wrong. Being a mammal makes us mammals. Period. I admit we are bigger brained, and that does set us apart. You might want to claim that we have souls and believe that sets us apart, fine. We can discus that, but first things first.

We are mammals. You agree with that.

Mammals are animals. You agree with that.

But you want to be a mammal that is not really a mammal. Sorry, that doesn't make sense.

As I stated, we are designed biologically survive in our current environs. I am not saying we are mammals that are not really mammals. I am saying that beyond our biological makeup, we are spiritual, moral beings created in God's image and that , while it cannot be seen under a microscope, is the paradigmn through which I am viewing this issue. Because man is not part of any mythical evolutionary process, he has no connection to the bonobo apes, genetically or otherwise.

[Shiloh62]

I was wondering from those of you here who are more science-minded.

Would you say that homosexuality makes evolutionary sense, or that its prevalence would lead to the end of the species?

What I mean is - if an isolated population of a species had more same-sex coupling than heterosexual, how long would this population survive?

For the same-sex couples would not be reproducing. And the number of child-bearing animals would be less. So, how many generations would it be before there are not enough descendants to keep the population going?

Not that I favor science (I don't) but I'm sure God would ensure a quick destruction of the race if that was to happen.

[Guest shiloh357]

Your position is a difficult one to prove.

I am not trying to prove anything. I never claimed to able to prove anything. I simply know what I believe based on Scripture.

In making this argument you are admitting that our biological function is like that of every mammal on the planet. You are leaving the door open for evolutionary thinking to swoop in.

I can't control how people think, Hitchey. Biological does not necessarily = "evolutionary" but if someone wants to to think within that paradigm, there is nothing I can do about it.

You are in a difficult position in that you don't possess physical evidence for your claim.

I am not making a claim that requires physical evidence, much less can be "proven."

Shilo, homosexual activity among Bonobos is common place. Why would you make such a blatantly false claim? It is a well established fact. Please explain.

Animals operate off of instinct and conditioned response. Animals do what they do when it provides a pleasurable outcome and avoid actions that bring displeasure. It has nothing to do with being "gay" or homosexual. In human beings, homosexuality is a moral decision, based on mutual attraction (perverted as it may be).

QUOTE (Shiloh)

If anything, it is humans acting like animals because of sin and the human heart/mind apart from God is so corrupt that there is no limit to the degree of debravity it will descend to. Hence, we have things like homosexuality (which is not what animals are engaging in), pedophilia, child porn, incest, beastiality and other perversions. They call stem from the same human depravity and evil bent.

You say that these are examples of humans acting like animals, but when was the last time you saw another species on this planet engaging in child porn, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality? Well, bestiality maybe. I have seen males of one species mount females of another on some nature shows.

No I did not say these are exmaples of humans acting like animals. I am saying that homosexuality pedophilia, child porn, incest, beastiality and other perversions are examples of human depravity. I am placing homosexuality where it belongs in a long list of sexually impure and sinful activities.

You may not approve of certain human behaviours but you must admit these behaviours are human.

They are human and thus, by default are sinful given that human nature is inherently sinful.

QUOTE (Hitchey)

Can you accept that biologically we are indistinguishable from animals, but that it is our soul (or something else) that sets us apart? We are more than just the sum of our biological parts, or at least most of us strive to that end.

QUOTE (Shiloh)

It is the purpose for which we were created and the Creator's image in us that sets us apart from the animals kingdom.

You didn't answer the question.

I was correcting your premise on what separates us from the animal kingdom. What sets us apart is that we are a special creation made in God's image.