Abortion Doctor shot at CHURCH????

[Believer1997]

In my heart, I agree Mike. I have seen people struggling with their salvation who were 'notorious' sinners and who kept coming to church and eventually received Christ. They repented and are Christians living a Godly life. I've also known of church deacons who were not living their lives according to God's laws and who still serve.... Men who cheated in business, abusers, etc. But they are on the front row on Sunday morning. Who is anyone to say that the Holy Spirit is not dealing with them, too? I'm not in favor of turning anyone away who is seeking to learn and experience Christ's love ...

Blessings.

That brings up another question. Was this man a church member, or just a visitor? You said you have known of people who were notorious sinners who eventually received Christ. If you are a notorious sinner, you are not part of God's church, not on God's role, and not supposed to be on a church role either. Membership is usually based on a salvation experience. I don't think anyone would be opposed to a sinner coming to hear the gospel, but no church should allow a professing Christian to remain a member in good standing if they are in a lifestyle of sin. That is totally contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

Our church has guests who attend weekly and are seeking - for an answer, fellowship, etc. Some of these people had "reputations", but we, the members of our church greeted them and welcomed them. Many of these people repented, accepted Christ and live Godly lives and are now members of our church. I know of a church where at least 2 of their deacons were not very nice people and their 'issues' were well known in the community. Yet, they still remain as deacons of that church and are up front each Sunday - as I said, who is to say the Holy Spirit is not dealing with them now...? Yes, in a perfect world, with perfect Christians all who entered a church would indeed be, perfect. ...

[Guest Butero]

In my heart, I agree Mike. I have seen people struggling with their salvation who were 'notorious' sinners and who kept coming to church and eventually received Christ. They repented and are Christians living a Godly life. I've also known of church deacons who were not living their lives according to God's laws and who still serve.... Men who cheated in business, abusers, etc. But they are on the front row on Sunday morning. Who is anyone to say that the Holy Spirit is not dealing with them, too? I'm not in favor of turning anyone away who is seeking to learn and experience Christ's love ...

Blessings.

That brings up another question. Was this man a church member, or just a visitor? You said you have known of people who were notorious sinners who eventually received Christ. If you are a notorious sinner, you are not part of God's church, not on God's role, and not supposed to be on a church role either. Membership is usually based on a salvation experience. I don't think anyone would be opposed to a sinner coming to hear the gospel, but no church should allow a professing Christian to remain a member in good standing if they are in a lifestyle of sin. That is totally contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

Our church has guests who attend weekly and are seeking - for an answer, fellowship, etc. Some of these people had "reputations", but we, the members of our church greeted them and welcomed them. Many of these people repented, accepted Christ and live Godly lives and are now members of our church. I know of a church where at least 2 of their deacons were not very nice people and their 'issues' were well known in the community. Yet, they still remain as deacons of that church and are up front each Sunday - as I said, who is to say the Holy Spirit is not dealing with them now...? Yes, in a perfect world, with perfect Christians all who entered a church would indeed be, perfect. ...

The Bible gives clear guidelines of the character Deacons are supposed to possess. If there is someone who doesn't meet these guidelines, they should be removed from their positions. 1 Timothy 3:8-13

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

As I said already, there is a difference between someone who is a weekly visitor and a member. This abortionist was apparently a member of the church where he was killed. The church should have put him out and turned him over to Satan.

[Smalcald]

I think we are mixing issues.

We are all sinners and we all need the healing power of the Gospel. Part of that is that we will be open to the teachings of Christ and His Word. So on any given day in Church you will have people who are at different places, some may not have faith yet but maybe getting near, some may have faith; yet have not fully given themselves to truth or are simply uninstructed, some are solid in their faith; we can't shut the door on people. However we must also administer church discipline which is part of love.

The second issue is more important and more about what this is about. When church doctrine itself is evil and wrong, then what difference does it make who is in their midst? You see Presbyterians, ELCA Lutherans, United Methodists, Episcopalian Church USA are all pro-choice, they all accept abortion as an acceptable moral prerogative of a women. Of course they would welcome this guy; their doctrine would hold that he is doing nothing wrong. This is a far far bigger and more dangerous issue than having sinners attend our congregations, which is what we are there to do anyway. It is not about the guy but about the official doctrine of the Church.

These denominations all were taken over in the 1960's and 70's by political liberals, they all began ordaining women, they all accept abortion, and they will all soon be marrying gays. What happened was that the bible believing members fled at that time, so we see conservative offshoots in each of these groups. Wesleyan Churches for example for Methodists, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod for Lutherans, Orthodox Presbyterians for that group. The dividing has been going on for some time I personally think it is part of the sign that we are entering the last days.

[MorningGlory]

Well it is far more than a matter of allowing an abortionist in their midst. The major mainline Protestant denominations are ALL pro-choice. Of course they allow him in their midst, they agree with him.

For example here is a doctrinal statement of the Presbyterian Church USA the largest Presbyterian group.

http://www.pcusa.org/101/101-abortion.htm

They "may not know when life begins"??????? This is a doctrinal statement of a church? I'm appalled; I had no idea.

[MorningGlory]

As I said already, there is a difference between someone who is a weekly visitor and a member. This abortionist was apparently a member of the church where he was killed. The church should have put him out and turned him over to Satan.

I just saw a lady who is a member of that church on the news. She described Tiller as a "good Christian man'. I don't even know what I would say to her if she was here in front of me for I believe that statement shows either utter stupidity or someone who only pretends to be Christian. Blind, deceived Christians are on the same express as muslims and other nonbelievers.

[Smalcald]

Well it is far more than a matter of allowing an abortionist in their midst. The major mainline Protestant denominations are ALL pro-choice. Of course they allow him in their midst, they agree with him.

For example here is a doctrinal statement of the Presbyterian Church USA the largest Presbyterian group.

http://www.pcusa.org/101/101-abortion.htm

They "may not know when life begins"??????? This is a doctrinal statement of a church? I'm appalled; I had no idea.

Oh yeah, all of those groups I mentioned above are on the same wavelength. They are all pro-choice, they are totally down with that and have been for many decades, simply pick a radical liberal social view, be it gay marriage, ordaining women, abortion and they will be right there agreeing that its all cool.

So when we here this guys church say he was a good Christian, they would simply be following thier own doctrines. You can't throw a guy out who is doing something that you as a church do not believe is wrong.

[Smalcald]

As I said already, there is a difference between someone who is a weekly visitor and a member. This abortionist was apparently a member of the church where he was killed. The church should have put him out and turned him over to Satan.

I just saw a lady who is a member of that church on the news. She described Tiller as a "good Christian man'. I don't even know what I would say to her if she was here in front of me for I believe that statement shows eithr utter stupidity or someone who only pretends to be Christian. Blind, deceived Christians are on the same express as muslims and other nonbelievers.

Well accept Muslims are pro-life and actually believe that God is literally true, as far off as they are, they at least have a form of faith and morals.

[Guest]

.... Lutheran Church Missouri Synod for Lutherans....

I Was At Hospital Friday (Carol Had Another Surgery) And I Had The Pleasure Of Reading The Lutheran Witness , Their Monthly Magazine. Wonderful Folk On Fire For Jesus!

I Picked Up Two More "New Favorite Scriptures" From The Testimony Of A Fellow Drafted To Run For Their President (Old Issue).

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 6:63

And

Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

Hosea 6:1

These Brothers And Sisters Were A Blessing To Me While I Waited To Receive My Wife Back.

[Guest yod]

Paul was not a member of the Christian church till he repented and accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

Don't want to hijack the thread but a point of order needs to be made here. I realize this will sound nit-picky to some, heretical to others....but Paul was NEVER a member of the christian church. He didn't start any "christian churches" either.

His view of what the assembly of the saints is has never been taught in christian seminaries. Ever. Anywhere. If one (not you specifically Butero) views the "church" as a separate entity greater than Israel, then you don't know what Rav Shaul taught at all

[Guest Butero]

Paul was not a member of the Christian church till he repented and accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

Don't want to hijack the thread but a point of order needs to be made here. I realize this will sound nit-picky to some, heretical to others....but Paul was NEVER a member of the christian church. He didn't start any "christian churches" either.

His view of what the assembly of the saints is has never been taught in christian seminaries. Ever. Anywhere. If one (not you specifically Butero) views the "church" as a separate entity greater than Israel, then you don't know what Rav Shaul taught at all

I see Jewish believers as the natural branches and Gentile believers as engrafted branches in one body. I see the Christian church as one body of believers, period. It is not just members of a particular denomination. When I said Paul was not part of the Christian Church at the time he was persecuting it, I believe that is accurate. He was a devout Jew and a believer in Jehovah, but he was also a lost sinner because he had rejected the Messiah. He became part of the Christian Church when Christ revealed himself to Paul. He didn't have to officially join a local body to be part of that church.

After his conversion, he became a missionary, and went about establishing local church bodies in differen't cities, and oversaw them.