Concerning Creation

[martin frobisher]

Shiloh, you contradict yourself. The scientific method would exclude the miraculous creation, including miraculous creation. Is that your intention?

Both you and nebula seem to be arguing consequentialism. And no one has commented on Messrs Mendel and Millikan and Dr Snow.

[nebula]

..which is not what I'm saying at all, is it!?

If only people would actually digest a statement and then understand, rather than add in things that haven't been said!

Then please clarify what you are arguing.

Sometimes pot-shot statements are easily misinterpreted and misunderstood because we all do not follow the same train of thought.

[martin frobisher]

Well nebula the scientific method depends on observation, correct?

But philosophically, if we do something a thousand times and the same thing happens every time, we may well be pretty certain the same thing will happen the thousand-and-first time - but we can't guarantee it!

So the people that had never come across two indentical snowflakes could not confidently state that no two snowflakes are alike, could they?

Look at the interpretation of clinical trials. The statistics may indicate that the probability of the two "treatments" being equivalent is less than 5%, but that cannot be taken to be unequivocal evidence that the active treatment works, can it? Which is one reason why research is replicated by different institutions.

[lekh l'kha]

This is all very interesting, even though trying to understand the language and terminology used by some is at times worse than a new Christian or non-Christian trying to work out what is meant by Christians when they say things such as pre-mill, a-mill, post-mill, pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib, Calvinistic, Augustinian, etc, etc

As someone who has no idea of scientific facts, I have a question though: Whatever happened to "the natural state of matter is random" (or was it "the natural state of matter is chaotic)? (And I don't think whoever said it was talking about the human brain, either).

How does this fit into the picture of having any order at all in the universe?

Then I also want to ask, (because I read about a scientist at Israel's Hebrew University bringing out the following theory):

If time slows down relative to the distance from the "epicenter" of the big bang (as science says it does), and if matter and the universe spread out and expanded at a certain rate from the epicenter, but that rate of expansion slowed relative to the distance from the epicenter, then does this not mean that relative to our position in our galaxy, the universe is x billion years old, but moving closer to the epicenter of the big bang where time moves faster and the rate of expansion is faster, the universe is much younger?

This scientist made some calculations and came up with the theory? that if the age of the universe were measured at the "epicenter" (I can't remember the word he used) of the big bang, the universe would be around 6,000 years old, but measured from our position relative to the epicenter, it's x billion years old (whatever it is according to science, I don't remember, 'cause I'm not old enough!).

lekh

[Fez]

The natural state of matter is chaotic, and for a reason. The first rule is; Without chaos there cannot be change, and without change there cannot be progress. Raises an interesting point as a believer. Is chaos planned by God? It must be because He is the creator of all things. Therefore it is only chaotic to us because we don't understand Gods plan, but to God it is planned?

Hey I don't know Just know that my life is mostly chaotic!

[MorningGlory]

Indeed not. God is entitled to as chaotic a reality as He likes.

The Lord doesn't DO chaos....chaos is the purview of satan. Everything the Lord does is according to His plan.

One cannot plan unpredictability?

Think about that for a bit and get back to me.

[lekh l'kha]

The natural state of matter is chaotic, and for a reason. The first rule is; Without chaos there cannot be change, and without change there cannot be progress. Raises an interesting point as a believer. Is chaos planned by God? It must be because He is the creator of all things. Therefore it is only chaotic to us because we don't understand Gods plan, but to God it is planned?

Hey I don't know Just know that my life is mostly chaotic!

I believe you're right about the former part, Fez. He holds all things together, and we know His name and His Son's name:

"Who has gone up to Heaven and has come down? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in His garments? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name? Surely you know." (Pro 30:4)

"And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist." (Col 1:17)

"For in Him we live and move and have our being, as also certain of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring." (Act 17:28)

If He was before all (created) things, then it must mean there was nothing except God, then there was contracted chaos, then a bang.

And it will all return to chaos and nothingness if He doesn't hold it all together:

"... who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the word of His power, through Himself cleansing of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high," (Heb 1:3)

I want a scientist to explain to me how there is any order at all if the natural state of matter is chaos. There must be some super-natural force at work if the natural state is random and chaos.

Show me what force is upholding all things and preventing everything from returning to its natural state, and I'll show you God.

lekh.

[MorningGlory]

The natural state of matter is chaotic, and for a reason. The first rule is; Without chaos there cannot be change, and without change there cannot be progress. Raises an interesting point as a believer. Is chaos planned by God? It must be because He is the creator of all things. Therefore it is only chaotic to us because we don't understand Gods plan, but to God it is planned?

Hey I don't know Just know that my life is mostly chaotic!

That which seems chaotic to us makes perfect sense to God.

[Guest shiloh357]

What needs to be pointed out is that while "chaos" in regular usage refers to complete confusion or lack of order, in terms of creation, it would appear that the "Chaos Theory" is kind of a misnomer.

What appears to be "chaos" on the surface, is really nothing more than a more complex order within the natural world.

What I am learning is that in the scientific community, "chaos" is simply a detection of unsuspected patterns and unexplained or unpredicted order and harmony within the natural world. This type of "chaos" is found in astronomy, meterology, the human body and even of all things, the Wall Street Stock Market. Scientists are learning that this "chaos" is more a sophisticated, and more complex type of order present in the univserse.

The science of meteorology is a good example of this. The weather, at times, makes liars out of weathermen. How many of us have had a good laugh when the weatherman made a confident prediction about the chances of rain for a particular day, only to have actual outcome be completely different? It turns out that this while the weather can be chaotic and we sometimes get suprised, but this suprised is built into weather. Surprise is built into every part of creation.

Creation is far more complex and cannot be pigeonholed into nice neat equations, but that complexity is reflective a Creator who is likewise well beyond the ability of mankind to understand fully.

We can see this same type of "chaos" in our own lives. How many times have you been able to look back on various periods of your life, and only now being able to trace the hand of God in what appeared to be randomness in the events that occurred or the choices you made? For that reason, we as Christians should not be surprised to see unexpected levels of complexity,harmony and beauty in univserse God has created.

[Guest]

.... but I prefer the much more sensical approach: something outside the natural laws set these laws into being ....

Amen!

And His Name Is Jesus.

He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.

Whether they are kings or lords, rulers or powers - everything has been created through him and for him.

He existed before everything and holds everything together.

Colossians 1:16-17 (GOD'S WORD