Help needed re the Levitical Law

[traveller]

I will add that rape today is an act of violence against women. It was not likely to be an act of violence as much as an act of uncontrolled passion bach in the day.

What do you base this on?

Let me make this as clear as I can. Society is completely different now. Back in the days of the prophets, women were more reserved and compliant. They were not taking men's jobs or being "power chicks". They were kept in a state that would not be tolerated today.

Today, women are demanding, ambitious, headstrong and opinionated. They compete very well in the work place and they are not afraid to talk back or even disrespect a man in the work place or in public. In addition, sex is tossed at us from every media. Women spend more time wanting to dress and look "Sexy" then they do to look "GODly".

This social dynamic has created a class of men who resent women to the point of hatred that manifests intself in the desire to debase women in the most humiliating way possible. Rape works better than murder because it lingers. Rape is the usuall choice for the release of this rage.

Now, yes it is possible that the scripture is speaking of a man coercing a woman (as opposed to rape) But I still feel that it is more likely that this is more a case of forced relations.

It is not something I will beat around with y'all. I have made my understanding known and tried to give reason. Whatever we believe on this subject is not going to change anything.

You will recall that there is a story of a young man who rapes one of the daughters of Joseph. ( her name starts with a T as I recall) He would have married her but the brothers went in and killed all of the men of the town on the third day after they were cercumsized.

I don't go along with this at all, brother. Raping and pillaging has been with us as long as there have been men (humankind) that wanted more land, more money, more stuff. For thousands of years women have been raped whether it was for spoils of war or whatever. It had nothing to do with their trying to usurp mans' place in the world, nor how they dressed, nor even how they looked. It was because they were disadvantaged in strength and protection. They were/and have been raped for a sense of dominance, or control by the man. And, there are the instances of flat out pure evil done simply to torment, to hurt, to inflict pain and shame. Some of these woman don't make it out alive.

I understand there are times when it's done out of sexual passion and desire, lack of self control. But that is no more defensible than the other reasons, in my book.

I understand that you are not condoning it kross. And, I understand what you're saying about today's society and how lax we've become with modesty and how we interact with one another. But, to suggest that the woman carries part of the blame is, in my opinion, part of the problem. Men have just as much responsibility to control their actions as do the women. But, to carry that further, in my opinion - men actually have more responsibility. They are to be the spiritual head of the family, yet they are abandoning their faith, leaving their households, and allowing their children to grow up fatherless. They should be there, teaching, instructing, leading the family in the ways of the Lord, protecting them, nourishing them. So yes, kross, I agree that society does have an impact on the way women are treated - but it's not always the womans fault.

Again - this is my opinion.

I do not think the woman, or women in general, carry the fault. A rapist is a rapist and carries all of his (or her) own guilt. But it is a social disorder in our day.

The fault lies with Satan. We do not battle flesh and blood, we battle the demonic spiritual war.

On that, we are in complete agreement.

[kross]

Let me make this as clear as I can. Society is completely different now. Back in the days of the prophets, women were more reserved and compliant. They were not taking men's jobs or being "power chicks". They were kept in a state that would not be tolerated today.

Today, women are demanding, ambitious, headstrong and opinionated. They compete very well in the work place and they are not afraid to talk back or even disrespect a man in the work place or in public. In addition, sex is tossed at us from every media. Women spend more time wanting to dress and look "Sexy" then they do to look "GODly".

This social dynamic has created a class of men who resent women to the point of hatred that manifests intself in the desire to debase women in the most humiliating way possible. Rape works better than murder because it lingers. Rape is the usuall choice for the release of this rage.

Yeah blame the woman... What a pile of tripe.

You will recall that there is a story of a young man who rapes one of the daughters of Joseph. ( her name starts with a T as I recall) He would have married her but the brothers went in and killed all of the men of the town on the third day after they were cercumsized.

No, it was a daughter of Jacob named Dinah who was raped by son of the King of Shechem. What was proposed was that Jacob and his intermarry with women of the city of Shechem in addition to his son marrying Dinah. Teh tribes of Simeon and Levi took justice into their own hands and decided to kill ALL the men after they had been made drunk while being circumcised.

That story has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. We are talking about a prescription of the Torah.

This story has to do with everything you were talking about.

First, this father was going to have his daughter mary the man who raped her. This is one of the "horrendous" points mentioned as to why this could not be what GOD meant. Yet, even before the law was given, this was a normal way to deal with the issue.

Second, here we see a man who would never have been considered as a mate for Dinah, who rapes her and thus puts himself in a position to mary her. This a second "Horrible" possibility of the law that was mentioned in a post. An unworthy suiter becomes the future husband as a result of raping the girl.

while we sit and speculate what would be the normal response in this situation, we have a very real example of exactly what would/could take place, from the Bible, that directly reflects the very aspect of this particular law.

How can that have "nothing to do with what we are talking about". It is the perfect living out of the law that was writen about in the opening question of the OP.

And it shows the very different view of rape that (IMO) is a reflection of the very different form of rape and reason for it in that culture and ours.

[kross]

I believe that it is clear that the greater crime in GOD's eyes is the crime of sex outside of marriage. Thus, I feel it is indeed referring to the rape of a virgin. The only way for her not to be shamed for the rest of her, and the only way to ensure that a woman so treated would be married, is to force the rapist to marry her.

This may not fit into our society, but it did fit into theirs.

No, it didn't.

I agree with Shiloh. How is subjecting a woman to live forever with a man that raped her considered a good thing? I'm rather lost on that. Even if she is doomed to starve, how is it better for her to live a life of fear, abuse, pain, shame, mistreatment? There are things worse than dying.

That may be how people look at things today, but the times were differen't. If a man defiled a woman back then, it made it difficult for her to find a husband, and women were dependent on men more so at that time than today. Forcing the man to marry her, and take care of her for the rest of his life was God's requirement. Here is a story from the OT that gives an actual example of this taking place. 2 Samuel 13. I am going to begin at verse one, but will jump down for the sake of brevity.

1 AND it came to pass after this, that Absalom the son of David had a fair sister, whose name was Tamar; and Amnon the son of David loved her.

2 And Amnon was so vexed, that he fell sick for his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin; and Amnon thought it hard for him to do any thing to her.

11 And when she had brought them unto him to eat, he took hold of her, and said unto her, Come lie with me, my sister.

12 And she answered him, Nay, my brother, do not force me; for no such thing ought to be done in Israel: do not thou this folly.

13 And I, whither shall I cause my shame to go? and as for thee, thou shalt be as one of the fools in Israel. Now therefore, I pray thee, speak unto the king; for he will not withhold me from thee.

14 Howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice: but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her.

In this case, it is obvious that the feelings he had for her were lust rather than love, because after he had raped her, verse 15 says the love turned to hate.

15 Then Amnon hated her exceedingly; so that the hatred wherewith he hated her was greater than the love wherewith he had loved her. And Amnon said unto her, Arise, be gone.

16 And she said unto him, There is no cause: this evil in sending me away is greater than the other that thou didst unto me. But he would not hearken unto her.

17 Then he called his servant that ministered unto him, and said, Put now this woman out from me, and bolt the door after her.

18 And she had a garment of divers colours upon her: for with such robes were the king's daughters that were virgins apparelled. Then his servants brought her out, and bolted the door after her.

19 And Tamar put ashes on her head, and rent her garment of divers colours that was on her, and laid her hand on her head, and went on crying.

Amnon was guilty of raping Tamar. Under the law, he was required to pay her Father and take her as his wife, and he could never put her away. He had committed two offenses, but notice that Tamar said the greater offense was not the rape but sending her away, verse 16. The times were differen't.

I got Tamar and Dinah mixed up earlier. I forgot they both were raped and both would have been married to thier rapists by their father.

Thanks B. You have made the points far better than I.

[anitarose]

I believe that it is clear that the greater crime in GOD's eyes is the crime of sex outside of marriage. Thus, I feel it is indeed referring to the rape of a virgin. The only way for her not to be shamed for the rest of her, and the only way to ensure that a woman so treated would be married, is to force the rapist to marry her.

This may not fit into our society, but it did fit into theirs.

No, it didn't.

I agree with Shiloh. How is subjecting a woman to live forever with a man that raped her considered a good thing? I'm rather lost on that. Even if she is doomed to starve, how is it better for her to live a life of fear, abuse, pain, shame, mistreatment? There are things worse than dying.

That may be how people look at things today, but the times were differen't. If a man defiled a woman back then, it made it difficult for her to find a husband, and women were dependent on men more so at that time than today. Forcing the man to marry her, and take care of her for the rest of his life was God's requirement. Here is a story from the OT that gives an actual example of this taking place. 2 Samuel 13. I am going to begin at verse one, but will jump down for the sake of brevity.

1 AND it came to pass after this, that Absalom the son of David had a fair sister, whose name was Tamar; and Amnon the son of David loved her.

2 And Amnon was so vexed, that he fell sick for his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin; and Amnon thought it hard for him to do any thing to her.

11 And when she had brought them unto him to eat, he took hold of her, and said unto her, Come lie with me, my sister.

12 And she answered him, Nay, my brother, do not force me; for no such thing ought to be done in Israel: do not thou this folly.

13 And I, whither shall I cause my shame to go? and as for thee, thou shalt be as one of the fools in Israel. Now therefore, I pray thee, speak unto the king; for he will not withhold me from thee.

14 Howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice: but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her.

In this case, it is obvious that the feelings he had for her were lust rather than love, because after he had raped her, verse 15 says the love turned to hate.

15 Then Amnon hated her exceedingly; so that the hatred wherewith he hated her was greater than the love wherewith he had loved her. And Amnon said unto her, Arise, be gone.

16 And she said unto him, There is no cause: this evil in sending me away is greater than the other that thou didst unto me. But he would not hearken unto her.

17 Then he called his servant that ministered unto him, and said, Put now this woman out from me, and bolt the door after her.

18 And she had a garment of divers colours upon her: for with such robes were the king's daughters that were virgins apparelled. Then his servants brought her out, and bolted the door after her.

19 And Tamar put ashes on her head, and rent her garment of divers colours that was on her, and laid her hand on her head, and went on crying.

Amnon was guilty of raping Tamar. Under the law, he was required to pay her Father and take her as his wife, and he could never put her away. He had committed two offenses, but notice that Tamar said the greater offense was not the rape but sending her away, verse 16. The times were differen't.

I got Tamar and Dinah mixed up earlier. I forgot they both were raped and both would have been married to thier rapists by their father.

Thanks B. You have made the points far better than I.

The difference is, Dinah was raped by someone she didn't know. Tamar was raped by her HALF-BROTHER.

I don't know about you, but if I were raped by a relative I darn sure wouldn't want to MARRY THEM.....I'd try to kill them at every opportunity.

And, I will confess this: I WAS RAPED by a relative. That's considered INCEST. And under the Levitical law, if you're raped by any relative, YOU DIE. You don't marry the relative.

a.

[Guest Butero]

I believe that it is clear that the greater crime in GOD's eyes is the crime of sex outside of marriage. Thus, I feel it is indeed referring to the rape of a virgin. The only way for her not to be shamed for the rest of her, and the only way to ensure that a woman so treated would be married, is to force the rapist to marry her.

This may not fit into our society, but it did fit into theirs.

No, it didn't.

I agree with Shiloh. How is subjecting a woman to live forever with a man that raped her considered a good thing? I'm rather lost on that. Even if she is doomed to starve, how is it better for her to live a life of fear, abuse, pain, shame, mistreatment? There are things worse than dying.

That may be how people look at things today, but the times were differen't. If a man defiled a woman back then, it made it difficult for her to find a husband, and women were dependent on men more so at that time than today. Forcing the man to marry her, and take care of her for the rest of his life was God's requirement. Here is a story from the OT that gives an actual example of this taking place. 2 Samuel 13. I am going to begin at verse one, but will jump down for the sake of brevity.

1 AND it came to pass after this, that Absalom the son of David had a fair sister, whose name was Tamar; and Amnon the son of David loved her.

2 And Amnon was so vexed, that he fell sick for his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin; and Amnon thought it hard for him to do any thing to her.

11 And when she had brought them unto him to eat, he took hold of her, and said unto her, Come lie with me, my sister.

12 And she answered him, Nay, my brother, do not force me; for no such thing ought to be done in Israel: do not thou this folly.

13 And I, whither shall I cause my shame to go? and as for thee, thou shalt be as one of the fools in Israel. Now therefore, I pray thee, speak unto the king; for he will not withhold me from thee.

14 Howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice: but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her.

In this case, it is obvious that the feelings he had for her were lust rather than love, because after he had raped her, verse 15 says the love turned to hate.

15 Then Amnon hated her exceedingly; so that the hatred wherewith he hated her was greater than the love wherewith he had loved her. And Amnon said unto her, Arise, be gone.

16 And she said unto him, There is no cause: this evil in sending me away is greater than the other that thou didst unto me. But he would not hearken unto her.

17 Then he called his servant that ministered unto him, and said, Put now this woman out from me, and bolt the door after her.

18 And she had a garment of divers colours upon her: for with such robes were the king's daughters that were virgins apparelled. Then his servants brought her out, and bolted the door after her.

19 And Tamar put ashes on her head, and rent her garment of divers colours that was on her, and laid her hand on her head, and went on crying.

Amnon was guilty of raping Tamar. Under the law, he was required to pay her Father and take her as his wife, and he could never put her away. He had committed two offenses, but notice that Tamar said the greater offense was not the rape but sending her away, verse 16. The times were differen't.

I got Tamar and Dinah mixed up earlier. I forgot they both were raped and both would have been married to thier rapists by their father.

Thanks B. You have made the points far better than I.

The difference is, Dinah was raped by someone she didn't know. Tamar was raped by her HALF-BROTHER.

I don't know about you, but if I were raped by a relative I darn sure wouldn't want to MARRY THEM.....I'd try to kill them at every opportunity.

And, I will confess this: I WAS RAPED by a relative. That's considered INCEST. And under the Levitical law, if you're raped by any relative, YOU DIE. You don't marry the relative.

a.

Would you mind posting the Levitical law that states that?

[precepts]

Methinkshe's

Could someone help?

I am speaking to someone about the intrinsic properties of God - just, holy, good, etc.

I have been posed this question.

Deut 22:28 outlines the punishment that God wants people to impose on rapists. That punishment is to marry the victim. This is not influenced by culture or any such rubbish. If you accept the bible as the word of God then you have to accept that God considers that punishment to be JUST. If you accept that God is the ultimate yardstick for justice then no other punishment can be more just! Deut is 22:28 is not a story of some particular incident of rape; it's GOD'S LAW! Do you support that as the most just possible punishment for rape?

These are the verses alluded to:

22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; (22:28-29)

22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

I need help to give a correct response and not just an opinion. I personally believe that the culture(s) of the day is very relevant, in spite of what my questioner claims. I also know God is just. But I don't know how to explain why the punishment God set for raping a virgin is peculiar to that time and place and culture bearing in mind that God is unchanging and what was true yesterday is true today.

Many thanks.

The lesson was that young girls weren't to stray far from their parents because they could be raped or forced.

[precepts]

The law varies, a woman could be put to death for being raped if she was married purely for the reason of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was the principles of obedience, purity, and jealousy. If you were raped as a virgin, you were no longer eligible to be a wife under the law (Mat 19:9). You were considered to of played the whore. God is just.

[BlindSeeker]

. . . INCEST. And under the Levitical law, if you're raped by any relative, YOU DIE. You don't marry the relative.

Would you mind posting the Levitical law that states that?

Rape or not the penalty is death.

Le 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

17 And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

[BlindSeeker]

The law varies, a woman could be put to death for being raped if she was married purely for the reason of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was the principles of obedience, purity, and jealousy. If you were raped as a virgin, you were no longer eligible to be a wife under the law (Mat 19:9). You were considered to of played the whore. God is just.

The verse you quoted does not support either of your statements.

Perhaps you would like to elaborate or add other verses?

[Guest]

The law varies, a woman could be put to death for being raped if she was married purely for the reason of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was the principles of obedience, purity, and jealousy. If you were raped as a virgin, you were no longer eligible to be a wife under the law (Mat 19:9). You were considered to of played the whore. God is just.

Never Dear One

Knowing The Grace Of God

And The Love He Has For The Daughters Of Eve

Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

John 8:1-11

>>>>>()<<<<<

Of Wives

They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?"

He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way."

"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Matthew 19:7-9 (New American Standard Bible)

And Daughters

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Timothy 5:8 (King James Version)

For God Is Full Of Mercy

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Matthew 12:7 (KJV)

And Unrighteous Wicked Men Are Not

Deliver me, O my God, out of the hand of the wicked, out of the hand of the unrighteous and cruel man.

Psalms 71:4 (KJV)

>>>>>()<<<<<

Jesus, God's SON

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 5:17-18

Will Resurrect The Dead

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:19-21

And The Son Is The Judge

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 5:22-23

And Salvation To All Who Will Hear His Words And Believe

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:24

And Time Is Running Out

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:25-29

>>>>>()<<<<<

Believe In The Son And Live

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joel 2:32

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Jeremiah 15:16

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job 19:25-27

Hallelujah!