Law Vs Grace, or Law AND Grace?

[canuckamuck]

I never said any such thing and youll not be able to back this by quote... i said your IMPLICATION is that you need no blood atonement for SIN... Your stement was more than about clothing, you specificly said that you are not under the law, you are indeed bound by 10 of them and youll be judged by these 10

no, I will not be judged by these 10, that is false. No where does the Bible say that Christians will be judged by these 10.

I don't think that you find many here that will disagree that the moral code that God articulated in the 10 commandments is for all time.

However, it is you that decided to give those 10 commandments/laws/statutes/rules the title of 'The Law', this is a label you alone are using, while nearly everyone else considers the term, 'The Law' to be the entirety of God's instruction to Moses, which you I understand you are calling Levitical law.

When you create your own terminology, expect that some people will want to disagree with your usage.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the Royal Law [written by the finger of God] according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For He that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Why leave out 13 'For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.'

This scripture you quoted is talking about legalism vs the spirit of the law. It is saying if you live by the letter of the law you are condemned by it's unbending precepts. But if you live by the spirit of mercy you live. Or do not judge lest you be judged.

Mercy is better than legalism, the new covenant is superior to 'The Law" But James is saying to the Jews that they may still attempt to keep the law if they wish.

Edited July 26, 2009 by canuckamuck

[precepts]

WolfBitn's

The only problem with this is that the scripture specificly says Adam wasnt deceived. This leads me to believe he was simply confused and weak, but not deceived

You're misinterpreting the scriptures. What the scripture mean is that Adam wasn't deceived by Satan. Edited July 26, 2009 by precepts

[WolfBitn]

No one has implied or said that the 10 laws are the levitical law, this is your assumption... Prove to me the 10 commandments arre NOT 10 laws... it'll be pretty hard to do when God Himself calls them laws... no more rhetoric, prove it

yes someone has, you have. And I have never said the 10 commandments are NOT 10 laws, this is your strawman not my words

LOL... show me where i said the levitical laws are the 10 lolol... SirGator you are a trip... i SAID PROVE where i said that... post the quote or get off my thread lol

Youve followed me in several threads just to argue

No youre changing the subject. You state that you believe the rich young ruler obeyed the 10 commandments and imply he lacked nothing in them... I am challenging your statement... NO ONE has ever kept them and if they had THEY would have been the Christ...l Jesus didnt keep all the levitical law nor did he promote the keeping of it... HE DID promote and keep the 10. So... answer for a change... WHO do you know thats ever kept the 10 laws of God? (God called them statutes and ive shown the Hebrew also is properly interpreted law... im sorry if you have a problem with this fact but it doesnt change the fact that it IS in fact, a fact

so you are saying that keeping the 10 Commandments would make one perfect? That there is not one sin that does not fall outside of these 10 rules give to Moses? Is that what you are saying?

If it is kept from the heart in its fullness and not just in the flesh, then Yes... thats what i am saying... but you nor i am able... Adam didnt... Christ did... if you disagree tell me how He was sinless, what did He do beyond the keeping of the law from His heart?

I never said any such thing and youll not be able to back this by quote... i said your IMPLICATION is that you need no blood atonement for SIN... Your stement was more than about clothing, you specificly said that you are not under the law, you are indeed bound by 10 of them and youll be judged by these 10

no, I will not be judged by these 10, that is false. No where does the Bible say that Christians will be judged by these 10.

Then tell me by what standard we are judged... it must be a known law otherwise there is no sin... So you tell me, by what standard we are judged

if you disagree tell me murder and rape and adultry and lust and greed and stealing and using Gods name in vain are acceptable to God and show me from scripture that He just doesnt care if you do these things... Revelation says those who do these things are cast into the lake of fire... you DO believe this correct?

They are not acceptable to God because they go against the two commandments that I gave you in this thread that Jesus said were the basis for all the rest.

The keeping of the 10 commandments go against love God and love your neighbor??? YOU HONESTLY blieve this?

If you do then we have problems lolol... HOW do the 10 go against the 2 and keep you from fulfilling them lol

do tell

I already did... Gator this is part of my problem with you, you dont care to pay attention to read what someone actually says. Lets strive to do better together hows that? as brothers in Christ

you are changing your story again. First the 10 Commandments were His 10 laws, now you are saying these are 10 of His laws, which changes totally from what you said in your other post. God gave lots of laws and statues; do you follow them all or just these 10?

i changed nothing... you simply dont understand or youre here for reasons other than honorable, i prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt, but youre making it hard at this point to do so

Explain... answer these quesitons in detail or feel free to hi-tail

Edited July 26, 2009 by WolfBitn

[WolfBitn]

I never said any such thing and youll not be able to back this by quote... i said your IMPLICATION is that you need no blood atonement for SIN... Your stement was more than about clothing, you specificly said that you are not under the law, you are indeed bound by 10 of them and youll be judged by these 10

no, I will not be judged by these 10, that is false. No where does the Bible say that Christians will be judged by these 10.

I don't think that you find many here that will disagree that the moral code that God articulated in the 10 commandments is for all time.

However, it is you that decided to give those 10 commandments/laws/statutes/rules the title of 'The Law', this is a label you alone are using, while nearly everyone else considers the term, 'The Law' to be the entirety of God's instruction to Moses, which you I understand you are calling Levitical law.

When you create your own terminology, expect that some people will want to disagree with your usage.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the Royal Law [written by the finger of God] according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For He that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Why leave out 13 'For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.'

This scripture you quoted is talking about legalism vs the spirit of the law. It is saying if you live by the letter of the law you are condemned by it's unbending precepts. But if you live by the spirit of mercy you live. Or do not judge lest you be judged.

Mercy is better than legalism, the new covenant is superior to 'The Law" But James is saying to the Jews that they may still attempt to keep the law if they wish.

Canuckamuck

He posted that not to say law is superior to grace, but to prove that even in the new testament the 10 commandments are called 'THE LAW'

[WolfBitn]

WolfBitn's

The only problem with this is that the scripture specificly says Adam wasnt deceived. This leads me to believe he was simply confused and weak, but not deceived

You're misinterpreting the scriptures. What the scripture mean is that Adam wasn't deceived by Satan.

Precepts

Its pretty hard to misinterpret scripture when you take a nonmetaphorical statement and believe it as it is written... this leads us to believe that his sin was then willing

And youre right... Satan didnt deceive Adam... just as the scripture says. Yet Adam transgressed the law and ate of the tree, but God also made a way to be merciful through sacrifice

[BlindSeeker]

I never said any such thing and youll not be able to back this by quote... i said your IMPLICATION is that you need no blood atonement for SIN... Your stement was more than about clothing, you specificly said that you are not under the law, you are indeed bound by 10 of them and youll be judged by these 10

no, I will not be judged by these 10, that is false. No where does the Bible say that Christians will be judged by these 10.

I don't think that you find many here that will disagree that the moral code that God articulated in the 10 commandments is for all time.

However, it is you that decided to give those 10 commandments/laws/statutes/rules the title of 'The Law', this is a label you alone are using, while nearly everyone else considers the term, 'The Law' to be the entirety of God's instruction to Moses, which you I understand you are calling Levitical law.

When you create your own terminology, expect that some people will want to disagree with your usage.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the Royal Law [written by the finger of God] according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For He that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Why leave out 13 'For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.'

This scripture you quoted is talking about legalism vs the spirit of the law. It is saying if you live by the letter of the law you are condemned by it's unbending precepts. But if you live by the spirit of mercy you live. Or do not judge lest you be judged.

Mercy is better than legalism, the new covenant is superior to 'The Law" But James is saying to the Jews that they may still attempt to keep the law if they wish.

The subject matter starts in 1:19 and is not speaking about "legalism," rather legality. Being a doer and not a hearer only. Similar to the words of Jesus, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." That's not legalism, it is a legality, which Jesus again affirms to be valid in Revelation -

Re 22:14 Blessed are

they that do His commandments

, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

You would do well to consider the difference between legalism and legality, there is one and it does matter as you can see by the verses above and the "so do" in verse 12.

[kross]

A person indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT will, by the very nature of the new nature, exist under a new law. The law of love and grace is transfused into the true believer as the stony heart is removed and a heart of flesh takes it's place.

This means that the true believer will keep the law of love automatically as he is transformed by the loving touch of GOD from an enemy of GOD to one who is transfixed on the joy and love of salvation. (This being the repentance that is spoken of as being necessary for salvation)

Paul wrote it as eloquently as possible when he said (in chapter 11 of Romans I believe) that all of the law is summed up in this one command, "LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

The law of grace frees us from the penalty of the law of sin and death for "Where sin abounds, grace all the more abounds". This does not give the Christian the freedom to sin at will but rather gives him the power to not sin by the grace that has sent the HOLY SPIRIT to indwell. INdeed, Paul adds, "should we sin all the more that grace should abound all the more?Certainly NOT" For if it is still in you to want to sin, than you do not have the HOLY SPIRIT and you are not one of HIS.

This new relationship with GOD establishes that if we sin "we have an advocate with the FATHER" such that we shall never be under the fear or the penalty of failure to keep the law of sin and death.

There is, therefore, indeed a law that comes with salvation and grace. But it is not a law written in the pages of a book. It is a law written on the hearts and in the spirits of those whom GOD has adopted as HIS children and set apart for HIMSELF. A law that manifests itself in the life of the truely saved that keeps that one on a perfect (but not sinnless) path from the moment of rebirth until the earthly tent gives up the ghost and beyond to eternity.

[kross]

What do you think of Jesus telling us that when we have done all that is our responsibility to do, that we should say within ourselves that we are unworthy servants that have done no more than our responsibility?

I am righteous through Christ not through myself. Jesus is right that I am am unworthy. If I was worthy He needn't have bothered with my salvation.

Exactly

And we are still unworthy even AFTER we are saved. There is nothing good in us but God if there is any good at all in us. We arent even able to keep the commandments of God as time and hostory prove, hence the need for much grace... but it took the law to condemn us before we could even see what we are.

Also

Matthew 5:17

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:18

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Put those two verses together and concentrate. The Law is to remain until it is fulfilled. What did Jesus say he came to do with the law?

Until what is fulfilled? ALL... Has Jesus returned to take His people? Have we been rewarded? Its been prophecied but NOT fulfilled, therefore the law stands

I agree with you that we need not keep levitical law, and yet these primary 10 seem to be binding til heaven and earth pass... it isnt the levitical law that has condemned us as sinners, but the primary 10 have, and they have also allowed the grace of God to shine through to us in a way we can be thankful and appreciative.

My sins were forgiven, I am not condemmed, I am sorry that you are.

You are forgiven BECAUSE you were first condemned and then repented receiving the sacrifice of the blood of Christ... If you had never been condemned by the law, youd not need forgiveness... Just as there can be no testament without a testator, there can be no condemnation without law.

The law was 2000 years ago and living by it brings death,

No... trusting in keeping it for your salvation brings death... but so does breaking it without repentance and sacrifice

The law of sin and death has convicted all of us of our sins. Once we have seen our sinful ways and repented and were saved by the work of JESUS on the cross, HE was the fulfillment of those laws. Thus, we were condemned under the law and saved out from under the law and into grace and the fulfillment of the law by HIM who said HE is the fulfillment of the law.

[WolfBitn]

Canuckamuck

He posted that not to say law is superior to grace, but to prove that even in the new testament the 10 commandments are called 'THE LAW'

where? not in the verses from James that is for sure.

do you have another passage that "prove" that the 10 commandments are called 'THE LAW'.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the Royal Law [written by the finger of God] according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For He that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

What other Royal Law do you know of that is wrapped up in love God and love thy neighbor, than the 10? Certainly not the levitical, only the 10... give me an alternative to the 10 and youll have a point... if you cant you have nothing to refute this but your opinion... So you tlel me... which laws do we have that are wrapped up in love thy neighbor other than the 10?

[WolfBitn]

Then tell me by what standard we are judged... it must be a known law otherwise there is no sin... So you tell me, by what standard we are judged

We are judged by the same standard that Adam was, which was WAY WAY before the 10 commandments. To say that the 10 commandments equal the law of God is just plain false.

If you are judged by the same standard Adam was, where is the tree you ate from?

if you disagree tell me murder and rape and adultry and lust and greed and stealing and using Gods name in vain are acceptable to God and show me from scripture that He just doesnt care if you do these things... Revelation says those who do these things are cast into the lake of fire... you DO believe this correct?

They are not acceptable to God because they go against the two commandments that I gave you in this thread that Jesus said were the basis for all the rest.

and the 2 are a shorthand for the 10... if you keep the 2 you cant break any of the 10... you break ANY of the 10 you are guilty of breaking the 2 AND the entire 10

The keeping of the 10 commandments go against love God and love your neighbor??? YOU HONESTLY blieve this?

If you do then we have problems lolol... HOW do the 10 go against the 2 and keep you from fulfilling them lol

do tell

you are twisting my words once again, why do you keep doing that?

I said that the things you listed, stealing, greed, etc go against the Loving God and loving your neighbor. If I follow this... 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.". You will notice that ALL of the law hang on these two.

you specificly said that keeping the 10 would keep you from obeying the 2

i changed nothing... you simply dont understand or youre here for reasons other than honorable, i prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt, but youre making it hard at this point to do so

Yes, you did change, and it is very dishonest to say otherwise.

you first said that the 10 Commandments were His 10 laws , then you later said these are 10 of His laws these two statements dont mean the same thing

You are severely confused i believe