Romans 9

[BlindSeeker]

To say that all passages that speak to soverignty never speak to salvation, only service, just doesn't seem to be supported by all of passages that speak to this issue as I read them.

I was talking about the places where the Bible directly mentions Predestination, not sovereignty per se.

Other than that, I agree with what you have said.

2Thess. 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks to GOD always for you, bretheren beloved of the LORD, because GOD from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the SPIRIT and beliefe in the truth, to which HE called you by our gospel..."

Admittedly, this verse does not use the word "Predestination" but it does explain the concept and ties it to salvation.

First, is not the meaning of the "you" in this verse referring to the plan of God to called the "Gentiles" into the fold via the Gospel . . . .as indicated in 2:1?

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by

our gathering together

unto Him.

See also for cross reference -

Eph 2:1 And

you

hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened

us together

with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made

us sit together

in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past

Gentiles in the flesh

, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For He is our peace,

who hath made both one

, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile

both unto God in one body by the cross

, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

Also Brother Shiloh . . . could the verse not mean the predetermined "way" of salvation and not the "who?" Such as -

"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you brethren beloved of the Lord, because God from the beginning chose through sanctification by the SPIRIT and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel for salvation"

Your perspective is of course welcome too Kross

Edited August 6, 2009 by BlindSeeker

[Guest shiloh357]

To say that all passages that speak to soverignty never speak to salvation, only service, just doesn't seem to be supported by all of passages that speak to this issue as I read them.

I was talking about the places where the Bible directly mentions Predestination, not sovereignty per se.

Other than that, I agree with what you have said.

2Thess. 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks to GOD always for you, bretheren beloved of the LORD, because GOD from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the SPIRIT and beliefe in the truth, to which HE called you by our gospel..."

Admittedly, this verse does not use the word "Predestination" but it does explain the concept and ties it to salvation.

Adtually the context supports a different understanding. Paul is discussing the end times. The "salvation" being referred to is not salvation from sin.

In vv. 10-12, unbelievers are sent a strong delusion BECAUSE of their unbelief and love of wickedness. God did not choose for them to remain in that rebellion but because of their rebellion, He sends thems a strong delusion so that they will advance to an whole new level of rebellion. This is exactly what happened with Pharoah.

vv. 13-14 are about reassuring a shaken congregation that because they have believed the gospel, they are among the elect who will be preserved until Christ returns.

As a side note, the phrase "from the beginning" is better translated, "as the first fruits"

[Fraught]

I agree Shilo and that was my point, it is Gods will/desire that we all be saved, and that obviously isn't going to happen from many many other verses in the Word. Gods will is not always done here on planet earth because he has given us free will.

This really is not stated anywhere in scripture. It is a logical deduction (as is the reformed position that God's glory was the reason He did not save everyone). What is interesting is that people on both sides of the argument agree that there was something more important to God than saving everyone. One side says it was free choice. The other, God's glory. Both sides use a specific set of verses to arrive at their conclusions and seem to ignore others that don't quite fit.

It's more than that, Eric. What I mean is, is God's will being done when a person shoplifts? Is God's will being done when some is raped? Murdered?, Robbed?

People like myself cannot accept that God's Sovereignty means that God's will is always done especially when acts AGAINST the revealed will of God are being committed. How can God's will be done by someone violating God's Will? Why would the will of God be found in that which God has told us He hates and commands us not to do in the first place?

God is sovereign, and God is in control of this world and the universe, but I don't think there is scriptural support for the notion that every action, every choice is God's Sovereign Will being done.

I would also find it hard to accept that it glorifies God for someone to die in their sin. God is glorified when people are saved, not when people die without Christ.

maybe this will make sense to you. i think of it this way: it is the will of God that presently, the world is given over to the destroyer, the prince of the power of the air. we can't know all the reasons; some, i'm sure, have to do with the angels and the war in heaven. so, although God desires that 'nothing be hurt or destroyed', He has given over that decision for now. this makes me thankful that, for God, a thousand years is as a day. otherwise, how could His grief be endured? (or how could we, weak dust that we are, endure our grief for Him?

[Guest]

Truth

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Hosea 6:6 (KJV)

To Tell

A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

Isaiah 42:3 (KJV)

Of Mercy

And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Hosea 2:23 (KJV)

And Of Grace

You are fairer than the sons of men; Grace is poured upon Your lips; Therefore God has blessed You forever.

Psalms 45:2 (NASB)

For Whosoever Will

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16 (KJV)

Believe On Him Is Good News

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 6:47 (KJV)

And All Other Philosophical Stuff Is Unwise

Jesus told his disciples, "Situations that cause people to lose their faith are certain to arise. But how horrible it will be for the person who causes someone to lose his faith!

Luke 17:1 (God's Word Translation)

Always Always Always Always Always Always Always Trust Jesus

>>>>>()<<<<<

All I Know

And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

Matthew 14:36 (KJV)

Is Whosoever Will

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13 (KJV)

Call Upon His Name Will Be Save

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:16-17 (KJV)

For Salvation Is Of The LORD

But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

Jonah 2:9

The Bible Tells Me So

>>>>>()<<<<<

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (KJV)

Love, Your Brother Joe

What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me?

I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.

Psalms 116:12-13 (KJV)

[kross]

To say that all passages that speak to soverignty never speak to salvation, only service, just doesn't seem to be supported by all of passages that speak to this issue as I read them.

I was talking about the places where the Bible directly mentions Predestination, not sovereignty per se.

Other than that, I agree with what you have said.

2Thess. 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks to GOD always for you, bretheren beloved of the LORD, because GOD from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the SPIRIT and beliefe in the truth, to which HE called you by our gospel..."

Admittedly, this verse does not use the word "Predestination" but it does explain the concept and ties it to salvation.

First, is not the meaning of the "you" in this verse referring to the plan of God to called the "Gentiles" into the fold via the Gospel . . . .as indicated in 2:1?

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by

our gathering together

unto Him.

See also for cross reference -

Eph 2:1 And

you

hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened

us together

with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made

us sit together

in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past

Gentiles in the flesh

, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For He is our peace,

who hath made both one

, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile

both unto God in one body by the cross

, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

Also Brother Shiloh . . . could the verse not mean the predetermined "way" of salvation and not the "who?" Such as -

"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you brethren beloved of the Lord, because God from the beginning chose through sanctification by the SPIRIT and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel for salvation"

Your perspective is of course welcome too Kross

Actually, the english language requires us to except that the you, us, we that are in the letters from Paul relate to the persons to whom the letter is written to. This verse is very clearly a prayer from Paul thanking GOD for saving this group of people and adding them to the known members of the family/kingdom. It is one of the many verses that state this is from the beginnning, or the foundation of the Earth (Eph 1:4-5)

[BlindSeeker]

Actually, the english language requires us to except that the you, us, we that are in the letters from Paul relate to the persons to whom the letter is written to. This verse is very clearly a prayer from Paul thanking GOD for saving this group of people and adding them to the known members of the family/kingdom. It is one of the many verses that state this is from the beginnning, or the foundation of the Earth (Eph 1:4-5)

What is "this?"

Let's look at those verses one by one if you like . . . or all at once. Let's see . . .

[other one]

I think it is probably not correct to say that Romans 9-11 is the climax or highlight of the letter. In Romans 1-8, Paul stressed the individual's relationship with God as seen through the eyes of the Gospel. Paul's insistence that individual Jews are separated from God and deserving of judgement (2:1-3:20), made it necessary for him to deal with God's corporate promises to Israel and their relationship to the Gospel and its dependability. It is simply a logical necessity for Paul to deal with this question.

He is not starting an entirely new topic per se, but he is dealing an issue that serves as focal point for the book of Romans. The climatic nature of the first 8 chapters seems to indicate that.

For 8 chapters Paul has been dealing with, 1. The universal guilt of mankind, (ch.1-2), Justification (ch.3-5), sanctification (ch.6-7), and our final redemption (ch. 8).

Chapter 9 starts a new line thought yet is built on what has already been said. In effect, Paul begins to explain to his nonJewish audience the cost at which their entrance into Kingdom came. Chapters 9-11 is an appeal to the Church to be a blessing to Israel. Paul has explained to his nonjewish audience how their entrance into the Kingdom was made possible, and now he pulls back the curtain to show them that a partial hardening has come upon Israel and God has broken off some of the natura olive branches to make room for these wild olive branches. There is still enough room for the broken branches to be grafted back in and Paul's appeal to his nonJewish audience is that in light of the fact that they have entered the Kingdom at Israel's expense, they owe it to Israel to be a light and to provoke them to jealousy.

God did not have to include the Gentiles. Jesus could have taken His place as king when he entered Jerusalem. He could have circumvented 2,000 years of the church age and just started His Kingdom rule on earth right then and there, but He had a higher purpose. That purpose of course, included bringing the Gentiles into the Kingdom.

In chapters 1-8, Paul shows them the wonderful gift they have and how they came to be included in God's plan of salvation, and uses that as a platform to show them why they need to be a blessing to Israel whom God used to make that gift availabe to them.

I don't see how he could have done that and gave them eternal life. If he did not die for the sins (ours or theirs) how would he have been the sacrifice for sins???

[Guest shiloh357]

I think it is probably not correct to say that Romans 9-11 is the climax or highlight of the letter. In Romans 1-8, Paul stressed the individual's relationship with God as seen through the eyes of the Gospel. Paul's insistence that individual Jews are separated from God and deserving of judgement (2:1-3:20), made it necessary for him to deal with God's corporate promises to Israel and their relationship to the Gospel and its dependability. It is simply a logical necessity for Paul to deal with this question.

He is not starting an entirely new topic per se, but he is dealing an issue that serves as focal point for the book of Romans. The climatic nature of the first 8 chapters seems to indicate that.

For 8 chapters Paul has been dealing with, 1. The universal guilt of mankind, (ch.1-2), Justification (ch.3-5), sanctification (ch.6-7), and our final redemption (ch. 8).

Chapter 9 starts a new line thought yet is built on what has already been said. In effect, Paul begins to explain to his nonJewish audience the cost at which their entrance into Kingdom came. Chapters 9-11 is an appeal to the Church to be a blessing to Israel. Paul has explained to his nonjewish audience how their entrance into the Kingdom was made possible, and now he pulls back the curtain to show them that a partial hardening has come upon Israel and God has broken off some of the natura olive branches to make room for these wild olive branches. There is still enough room for the broken branches to be grafted back in and Paul's appeal to his nonJewish audience is that in light of the fact that they have entered the Kingdom at Israel's expense, they owe it to Israel to be a light and to provoke them to jealousy.

God did not have to include the Gentiles. Jesus could have taken His place as king when he entered Jerusalem. He could have circumvented 2,000 years of the church age and just started His Kingdom rule on earth right then and there, but He had a higher purpose. That purpose of course, included bringing the Gentiles into the Kingdom.

In chapters 1-8, Paul shows them the wonderful gift they have and how they came to be included in God's plan of salvation, and uses that as a platform to show them why they need to be a blessing to Israel whom God used to make that gift availabe to them.

I don't see how he could have done that and gave them eternal life. If he did not die for the sins (ours or theirs) how would he have been the sacrifice for sins???

Not following your question, Other one. Can you clarify?

[kross]

Biblical Predestination always pertains to service, not salvation. In each case where Predestination is mentioned in the Bible, it pertains to what God has predestined for those who have accepted Christ. There is not ONE place in the Bible that says God has predestined anyone to hell.

I was looking at the verse in Romans 8:30 again and I am having a hard time understanding this statement while reading that verse (not that that is anything new)

Romans 8:30 "Who HE predestined, these HE also called; and whom HE called, these HE also justified; and whom HE justified, these HE also glorified."

Reading this verse, I see that those HE called HE also justified and glorified. This means "Saved" to me. So it seems to me that predestination is linked to salvation in this verse. IF that is not true, than Christians can not lean on the promise that "All things work together for those who love GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose". Since Paul is using verses 29-30 to explain how those who are The Called became The Called. Namely that HE predestined them, so HE called them.

[BlindSeeker]

Biblical Predestination always pertains to service, not salvation. In each case where Predestination is mentioned in the Bible, it pertains to what God has predestined for those who have accepted Christ. There is not ONE place in the Bible that says God has predestined anyone to hell.

I was looking at the verse in Romans 8:30 again and I am having a hard time understanding this statement while reading that verse (not that that is anything new)

Romans 8:30 "Who HE predestined, these HE also called; and whom HE called, these HE also justified; and whom HE justified, these HE also glorified."

Reading this verse, I see that those HE called HE also justified and glorified. This means "Saved" to me. So it seems to me that predestination is linked to salvation in this verse. IF that is not true, than Christians can not lean on the promise that "All things work together for those who love GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose". Since Paul is using verses 29-30 to explain how those who are The Called became The Called. Namely that HE predestined them, so HE called them.

Those He "called" are the Gentiles . . .

Paul begins speaking to Jews in Romans 7:1 because of the problem in betweeen Jewish and Gentile believers in Rome-

Ro 7:1 Know ye not,

brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,)

how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Paul continues his address to his Jewish brethren to the end of chapter 9 calling on Hosea as a witness to his words -

Ro 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Ro 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Paul is not dealing with individual salvation . . . but salvation available to all those of every kindred, nation and tongue.