Communion - Bread and Wine

[mizzdy]

The only replacement theology going on here, is trying to replace what Christ taught with that of Judaism. Its becoming clear to me that this is just another assult on the gospel and going back into the law with foolish arguements. Gal 3:1-3

"This cup is the NEW covenant in my blood, as often as you drink it, do this in rememberance of me" 1 Cor 11:25. Its that simple, the Spirit leads us into all truth. Jesus didnt set down rules for days and methods as He knew the "Comforter" would lead us.

How true it is that we get caught up on the details, straining at knats yet neglecting the weighter laws of justice and mercy.

There are people here who will disagree with you. But because it is a subject close to their hearts I will leave it to them to discuss it with you

But a simple question would be, for a start, is...

Are you saying that the Israel spoken about in the NT is the church, and not Israel itself?

What i will say is that Elijah and Enoch will return to Jerusalem and be put to death (probably seen on worldwide live telecast) after fearlessly preaching the gospel and after their bodies lie in the streets for 3 days they will be raised to life.

So while i do not think Israel is unimportant to us or indeed to God, i do not subscribe to christians converting to Judaism or having any advantage in those teachings unless they are living there and want "become all to all to win some"

Who has ever said anyone needs to convert to Judaism? not one person has ever said a word in that regard. Just because you see God's Feasts as some Jewish something doesn't make them what you believe. Yeshua who is the very Word of God walked in the very cycles He gave to His assembly, for all generations, perpectual even into the millennial reign please note they are God's Feasts and not some Jewish stuff. And where do you find anyone saying anyone is under any law? It seems its always the same with your posts have to put that Jewish stuff in their making it seems as those of us who do keep the Sabbath or shock of shocks keep Gods Feasts are somehow trying to be Jewish and live under Judaism which is not biblical but rabbincally ran. We do not know if it will be Elijah or Enoch no one knows till they show up we can surmise and speculate all we want but we are just not told.

And where is that Helper suppose to lead us? but right back to God, His Spirit leads us in the things of God and we find out what God said in the OT also and so very much of that NT is composed of OT writings, sayings, comments, prophecies we cannot throw it out because its 'Jewish'. The new covenant is made with who JC and what does it entail and when will it be completely fulfilled? If you are not with the house of Israel, not the nation you see in the middle east, but the true house of Israel you are outside the "new" covenant which to be honest I don't believe is new at all but renewed with Yeshua as the High Priest which is the part of the old becoming new, thats the way I read it. No one ever says that anyone can be assured of salvation without the Messiah.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

I have no idea what you mean by "having and advantage in those teachings" mean but honestly if digging into the roots of the words and finding out what the idioms mean, if checking out the commentaries of the sages and rabbis is "having and advantage in those teachings" is meaning that then paint me guilty cuz its my humble honor and privilage to dig into the word of God and see what His word teaches me. Also I see the gospel in Genesis, in Exodus, throughout the entire bible, in Romans 1 I think it says that the prophets spoke the gospel, paraphrasing from memory.

Sorry if I have been in any way seem to be harsh nothing of the sort was intended I just am very passionate about the fact that God doesn't change and if Messiah came to change everything that would make God doubleminded to me.

[Botz]

The only replacement theology going on here, is trying to replace what Christ taught with that of Judaism. Its becoming clear to me that this is just another assult on the gospel and going back into the law with foolish arguements. Gal 3:1-3

"This cup is the NEW covenant in my blood, as often as you drink it, do this in rememberance of me" 1 Cor 11:25. Its that simple, the Spirit leads us into all truth. Jesus didnt set down rules for days and methods as He knew the "Comforter" would lead us.

How true it is that we get caught up on the details, straining at knats yet neglecting the weighter laws of justice and mercy.

I Have to agree with Mizzdy and Nebula....and to use one of Shiloh's well worn expressions, you are creating a Straw-man bro....and what is becoming clear to you..... is in reality extremely muddy.

I have come to realise that many Believers are blinkered when it comes to Israel and the Jewish people, and are unwilling to check history and see if the Church has indeed moved away from its established roots and produced something in its own traditions that owes more to the heart of man than the revelation of Scripture.

Once again you accuse various brethren here of trying to Judaize, and belittle or detract from the Gospel of Salvation...and then when people discuss digging into the meat and meaning of Scripture you assume to accuse them of getting caught up in unimportant details, and try to equate it with something that Jesus taught in a different setting entirely.

Every single thing in the New Covenant/Testament stems from a Jewish undertanding/perspective and is rooted in the will of G-d revealed to man, by and large through His chosen people the Jews, and we by the grace and mercy of G-d have been made partakers of the same vine having been grafted in....we have not been made usurpers, and have not in any way replaced the Jewish people....but it is time to stand up and honour our heritage, and be thankful for the faithfulness of the Jewish Fathers of the Faith, instead of trying to disown them....and in case you might think (and I think you might) that I am advocating salvation apart from Jesus....I am not....both Jew and Gentile need to be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

[JCISGD]

No one is advocating salvation apart from Christ.

Unfortunately, Christians want to advocate Christianity apart from the Old Testament.

Where have i avoided the OT ? Are you saying Christ did not bring in a new covenant no longer based on the law?

If anyone adds to Christ`s teaching then they are advocating salvation apart from Christ and there is a steady movement that is trying to get Judise Christianity. I have stated that Israel is important to God, and i have always supported Israel.

Some on WFs are insisting that communion is held once a year on the passover, and that the Lords Day is does not replace the seventh day. This is Judaism and i will not bow down to it.

[JCISGD]

Once again you accuse various brethren here of trying to Judaize, and belittle or detract from the Gospel of Salvation...and then when people discuss digging into the meat and meaning of Scripture you assume to accuse them of getting caught up in unimportant details, and try to equate it with something that Jesus taught in a different setting entirely.

Sorry brother Botz but I dont see where disagreeing with others is the same as accusing or belittling, and that has not been my intention. I think your reading into my posts things that are not there.

Taking the bread and wine in rememberance of Jesus` death and ressurection is a different observance than the passover. Jesus was not crucified or risen on the passover day so why would He mean us to keep the observance of bread and wine on it and only once a year?

[OneLight]

Not to interfere with the conversation, but the blood that was placed on the door well of each believers house was what God used as a sign to pass over that house with the death of the first borne. Like that passover, we are passed over by the second death because of the blood of Christ that covers us. I see both a likeness and a connection.

[Guest]

Bless the LORD, O my soul:

and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Psalms 103:1

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OK, now this I have something to comment on.

But, The OT is not for us to actually learn how to perform worship. That is what the NT is for. We learn about God's nature in the OT but we learn the tactics of worship in the NT

I do not follow your train of thought. How do you learn how to perform worship without the Psalms?

What acts of worship are you getting from Psalms?

The Psalms are one big collection of worship. I am seriously not following your train of thought.

What particular acts of worship does Psalms define? I am not discussing your attitude or behavior in worship but particular acts of or what you actually perform as worship to God.

Well

What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me? I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:12-13

There Is This

In God we boast all the day long, and praise thy name for ever. Selah. Psalms 44:8

And That

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. Psalms 2:12

You

In God we boast all the day long, and praise thy name for ever. Selah. Psalms 44:8

See

I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:17

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Be Blessed

I love the LORD, because he hath heard my voice and my supplications. Psalms 116:1

Beloved Of The KING

And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing. Psalms 107:22

Love, Your Brother Joe

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalms 133:1

[Guest]

No one is advocating salvation apart from Christ. Unfortunately, Christians want to advocate Christianity apart from the Old Testament.

Where have i avoided the OT ? Are you saying Christ did not bring in a new covenant no longer based on the law? If anyone adds to Christ`s teaching then they are advocating salvation apart from Christ and there is a steady movement that is trying to get Judise Christianity. I have stated that Israel is important to God, and i have always supported Israel.

Some on WFs are insisting that communion is held once a year on the passover, and that the Lords Day is does not replace the seventh day. This is Judaism and i will not bow down to it.

Salvation

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Has Never Changed

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. Psalms 2:12

Bow Down To The God Of Abraham, Issac And Jacob

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

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Be Blessed

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

Beloved Of The KING

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4

Love, Your Brother Joe

>>>>>()<<<<<

Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. Zechariah 8:3

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:9-14

[Botz]

Once again you accuse various brethren here of trying to Judaize, and belittle or detract from the Gospel of Salvation...and then when people discuss digging into the meat and meaning of Scripture you assume to accuse them of getting caught up in unimportant details, and try to equate it with something that Jesus taught in a different setting entirely.

Sorry brother Botz but I don't see where disagreeing with others is the same as accusing or belittling, and that has not been my intention. I think your reading into my posts things that are not there.

Fair enough bro I was obviously misunderstanding the import of your words....I apologize and have got rid of the 'high horse' as a mode of transport.

Taking the bread and wine in remembrance of Jesus` death and resurrection is a different observance than the passover. Jesus was not crucified or risen on the passover day so why would He mean us to keep the observance of bread and wine on it and only once a year?

This is the crux of everything we are discussing....whether Jesus sanctioned a specific act that the Church calls 'Communion', and took it out of the context of a national feast that was to be observed at a specific time on a yearly basis forever. From my understanding the timing and the instructions that G-d gives are for a specific purpose...in this case a 'memorial' of when G-d took the Jewish nation out of Egypt, and delivered them from the Angel of Death....everything is cyclical and the greater prophetic message of Passover was to foreshadow and teach of the time when G-d would provide the Lamb, and declare us righteous when He saw the Lambs blood availing on our behalf...and just as the Angle of Death passed over the houses with blood on their lintels and doorposts, so the wrath of G-d is turned from us because our sins were placed on Jesus.

The timing of Jesus death is very specific....but as I tried to indicate a number of posts back, there is some dispute about how He could share Passover with His disciples and yet die later....I suggested that there was a certain lee-way that was acceptable....but no one explored this possibility. I repeat that I do not find anything specifically wrong with Communion as practiced in most Gentile congregations....I just don't think it was intended to be a separate observance, and because I have a particular interest in re-connecting to our Jewish roots, I am prepared to reconsider some things in the past that I have taken for granted.

Everything about the timing, death and resurrection of the L-rd is intimately connected to specific Jewish observances...but the Gentile Church IMO divorced itself from any such connection and made up their own liturgy, not on a whim, or because it made more sense...but deliberately to separate themselves from any Jewish connection.

You say Jesus did not day during Passover....on what day did he die?

Do you think the actual timing of His resurrection corresponded to any specific celebration...and if so what?

[nebula]

No one is advocating salvation apart from Christ.

Unfortunately, Christians want to advocate Christianity apart from the Old Testament.

Where have i avoided the OT ? Are you saying Christ did not bring in a new covenant no longer based on the law?

Your protests indicate to me that you equate things established in the OT as "Judaising."

If anyone adds to Christ`s teaching then they are advocating salvation apart from Christ

No one is adding anything, and no is claiming this as a salvation issue.

If anything, the celebration of Christmas was adding something to Christianity.

Putting "the bread and the wine" back into the context from which it came is redeeming what was lost. The whole Passover celebration is a beautiful visual of the sacrifice of Jesus for us. How is enacting a living memorial of the Lord's death for our sins "Judaising" or advocating a false salvation?

and there is a steady movement that is trying to get Judise Christianity.

How are joining in the celebrations of the Feasts of the Lord "Judaising"?

I have stated that Israel is important to God, and i have always supported Israel.

Right, but do you believe that Jew and Gentile being one body means "they" have to become "like us", or that "we" belong to "their" tree?

Some on WFs are insisting that communion is held once a year on the passover, and that the Lords Day is does not replace the seventh day. This is Judaism and i will not bow down to it.

But what we call Communion was a part of the Passover.

The question is whether or not this Remembrance was ever meant to be taken out of Passover.

Some of us are not satisfied with Tradition, nor interpreting Scripture based on tradition, but rather want to seek out the truth of the matter apart from a pre-bias, asking, "Is this what was meant?" I've done that with a lot of things I was raised to learn, and I have come to realize that the traditional interpretation is not always the correct one.

~~~~~

Taking the bread and wine in rememberance of Jesus` death and ressurection is a different observance than the passover.

The bread and the wine is a remembrance of His death, but not His resurrection. The wine is to remember His shed blood, the bread is to remember His broken body. What part of that is His resurrection?

Jesus was not crucified or risen on the passover day so why would He mean us to keep the observance of bread and wine on it and only once a year?

What do you mean by "Passover Day"? Passover is a week-long celebration.

[mizzdy]

Once again you accuse various brethren here of trying to Judaize, and belittle or detract from the Gospel of Salvation...and then when people discuss digging into the meat and meaning of Scripture you assume to accuse them of getting caught up in unimportant details, and try to equate it with something that Jesus taught in a different setting entirely.

Sorry brother Botz but I don't see where disagreeing with others is the same as accusing or belittling, and that has not been my intention. I think your reading into my posts things that are not there.

Fair enough bro I was obviously misunderstanding the import of your words....I apologize and have got rid of the 'high horse' as a mode of transport.

Taking the bread and wine in remembrance of Jesus` death and resurrection is a different observance than the passover. Jesus was not crucified or risen on the passover day so why would He mean us to keep the observance of bread and wine on it and only once a year?

This is the crux of everything we are discussing....whether Jesus sanctioned a specific act that the Church calls 'Communion', and took it out of the context of a national feast that was to be observed at a specific time on a yearly basis forever. From my understanding the timing and the instructions that G-d gives are for a specific purpose...in this case a 'memorial' of when G-d took the Jewish nation out of Egypt, and delivered them from the Angel of Death....everything is cyclical and the greater prophetic message of Passover was to foreshadow and teach of the time when G-d would provide the Lamb, and declare us righteous when He saw the Lambs blood availing on our behalf...and just as the Angle of Death passed over the houses with blood on their lintels and doorposts, so the wrath of G-d is turned from us because our sins were placed on Jesus.

The timing of Jesus death is very specific....but as I tried to indicate a number of posts back, there is some dispute about how He could share Passover with His disciples and yet die later....I suggested that there was a certain lee-way that was acceptable....but no one explored this possibility. I repeat that I do not find anything specifically wrong with Communion as practiced in most Gentile congregations....I just don't think it was intended to be a separate observance, and because I have a particular interest in re-connecting to our Jewish roots, I am prepared to reconsider some things in the past that I have taken for granted.

Everything about the timing, death and resurrection of the L-rd is intimately connected to specific Jewish observances...but the Gentile Church IMO divorced itself from any such connection and made up their own liturgy, not on a whim, or because it made more sense...but deliberately to separate themselves from any Jewish connection.

You say Jesus did not day during Passover....on what day did he die?

Do you think the actual timing of His resurrection corresponded to any specific celebration...and if so what?

I found this article to be interesting, heres part 2 and and part 3. Doesn't answer every question but gives a good reasoning for Passover and not a new communion. We get caught up in the preparation day and the day of Passover also I believe and it seems even then Passover was considered the entire Feast and not two separate things which really I suppose is not a big deal just makes things a bit muddied perhaps.

In 1 Col. 11:26 where it says 'as often as you eat' is an idiom for the Passover, or at least many Jewish folks have told me just as the term 'face to face' is meant to mean when we are in the world to come. We see in history where the churches outside of the land were changing to appease perhaps? the people in those lands just as we see with so many other days giving new meanings outside of scriptures. We cannot deny Polycarps testimony regarding Rome and the changing of Passover to a weekly communion. I can find no references to anything remotely seen as communion within any rabbinical writings, not in the instructions God gave to follow, its simply not a 'Jewish' thing and with the other writings it just cannot be something new but something already in place which would be the Passover. The 'church' has gotten away from its roots and frankly I believe its why so many are asking after, running back to the scriptures digging into hebrew and greek to see where things went off kilter. Its too bad so many see these people and groups as apostate or cults, they are not but I do agree there are plenty out there! God told us in the end He would put in on the hearts of His children to return to Him and His ways and I think that is what has been happening in the last years people returning to His word and finding out that some may have been lied to in regards to what they have been taught. Now I am not saying anything is wrong with anyone or what people do everyone needs to be convinced in their own minds where God is leading and what He is saying to them.