Communion - Bread and Wine

[mizzdy]

The thing is Mizzdy, by your own words you are saying that i am not walking in Christs instructions if i dont do as you do, you are wrong. You also have used logic about cycles to try to understand Christs commands, He is Lord of the sabbath and can change the day if mans needs change which they did after Christ came and sent the gospel out to the Gentiles as well.

I agree with you we dont have to become anything more than what God wants for us, for me as a Gentile that is different to those in Israel, unless maybe God wants me there as a missionary.

If a Jew who has not recieved Christ by faith, is not trying to be saved by keeping the law, then how do they think they are saved? Perhaps they think they dont need to do anything, but that would be because they think being a Jew saves them, which is one and the same in my book.

But your right i do know very little about Judaism, i only know when it is being foisted upon me.

No I do not believe I said you were not walking with Yeshua nor did I ever tell you what to do matter of fact I stated that at the end of one of my posts. I never said you had to agree with me either did I? Let me ask you this did mans needs change ever? man was and still is a sinner, we still need Messiah's blood to cover us. I have never said a Jew or anyone else could have salvation without Him nor did I ever say I or any Jew believes keeping His instructions will save you, no one believes that JC no one! The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah are they not? Let me suggest something to you go to the bible and read it without Finney, without those so called early church fathers get a Strongs and dig in. For instance in 1 Cor. I think where it says 'first day of the week' can't remember the exact verse or phrase but the meaning of that means first of the Sabbaths they were counting the omer which leads up to Shavout or Pentecost but so many want to make that all about changing the day to Sunday and it now becoming the 'Lords Day' and it simply is not. No one says to study Judaism but you need a good understanding of the hebrew roots also, don't take a mans word over Gods, don't use mens words but Gods and you will see that God is the same forever, He doesn't change His mind about His set apart days and we see Yeshua our Messiah keeping the very days He Himself gave His people. Go and do some study if you need some help let me or someone know but please please quit trying to put people in boxes you know nothing. And no one not one person here has 'foisted' Judaism on you or anyone else, we are speaking biblical instructions not from the Talmud.

Mizz

[JCISGD]

Well, I hope you noticed that several of us are likewise in questioning mode.

I guess the difference is how open one is to accepting that it might be a possibility?

I guess we are both guilty of talking past each other.

It puzzles me and some others why whenever we mention returning to the roots (i.e. celebrating Passover and the like) that we are accused of advocating salvation apart from Christ.

Or that we are trying to return to the Law.

But we are not advocating becoming Jews.

However Jews must give up trying to be saved by the Law and humble themselves and come to Christ just as we Gentiles must.

And where do you get the idea that anyone is saying otherwise?

I don't remember Him as dead, either. But I do remember the sacrifice.

Just like we sing songs that commemorate His death, His sacrifice, without mentioning the resurrection (i.e. "Via Dolorosa," "Lamb of God" by Twila Paris).

There is a different living memorial for His resurrection.

I do notice that this is a civil discussion and i havnt given enough credit to the replies i have recieved thus far. Yep i am quite bad at not reading carefully and talking past perhaps, i think im a little ADD and always struggled to listen at school. Add a few coffees and im diabolical sometimes.

I dont have any issue with observing Jewish observances for personal edification, but dont you see thats different from saying the passover is the real communion or that the seventh day is the Christian sabbath? This is not returning to anything it is error and destabilising Christian main stays, which adds fuel to those who reject Christ.

Besides if your not a Jew how can you be returning to something you never were? The Jews were given cerimonial laws to seperate them from the other nations, if you insist they are for Christians or the real observances you are going back to the law.

Where do you get the idea i forget his sacrifice because i celebrate his resurrection, they go hand in hand. I dont think Jesus ever meant communion to be a guilt trip, even though many do see it that way. It was for the joy set before Him that He endured the cross.

[nebula]

I do notice that this is a civil discussion and i havnt given enough credit to the replies i have recieved thus far. Yep i am quite bad at not reading carefully and talking past perhaps, i think im a little ADD and always struggled to listen at school. Add a few coffees and im diabolical sometimes.

I dont have any issue with observing Jewish observances for personal edification, but dont you see thats different from saying the passover is the real communion or that the seventh day is the Christian sabbath? This is not returning to anything it is error and destabilising Christian main stays, which adds fuel to those who reject Christ.

Besides if your not a Jew how can you be returning to something you never were? The Jews were given cerimonial laws to seperate them from the other nations, if you insist they are for Christians or the real observances you are going back to the law.

Where do you get the idea i forget his sacrifice because i celebrate his resurrection, they go hand in hand. I dont think Jesus ever meant communion to be a guilt trip, even though many do see it that way. It was for the joy set before Him that He endured the cross.

OK, I'll just remember I need to repeat questions to you.

Like I would still desire to know why you keep stating anyone is claiming salvation through Judaism or any means other than Christ?

As for Passover and the 7th Day - it's about digging through the Scriptures and history to see where these things actually come from.

Did the Apostles really make the changes? Or was it done later? And why?

Maybe we are just seeing different things and coming to different conclusion, or allowing at least for a different possibility than traditions that have been handed down to us.

If it was discovered with reasonable evidence that it was a church leader in the 2nd or 3rd or 4th century who decreed "the Lord's day" as Sunday, for that was the day to honor the Sun (thus integrating the pagan practices of the Gentiles to make the new religion more palatable to them or even to genuinely make Christianity like their old religion), what would you say then?

(I did say "if").

[mizzdy]

JC, will you read this article with an open mind?

I dont have any issue with observing Jewish observances for personal edification, but dont you see thats different from saying the passover is the real communion or that the seventh day is the Christian sabbath? This is not returning to anything it is error and destabilising Christian main stays, which adds fuel to those who reject Christ.

The Messiah said it was the Passover He was eating. Can you with the scriptures only prove that Yeshua the Messiah changed His Day, the one He is Lord of to Sunday observance, the burden of proof is on you JC I can show that He did not. Now that doesn't mean Sunday worship is a sin at all, I don't believe it is but to call His Day other than what He Himself called the day well He might look upon it as good, you'll have to ask Him when you meet Him. Why is it christian, why the need to divide Gods children into groups? God calls His called out ones Israel, not secular land dwelling Israel but Israel who accepts Him, His commandments, and have the testimony of His Messiah.

Besides if your not a Jew how can you be returning to something you never were? The Jews were given cerimonial laws to seperate them from the other nations, if you insist they are for Christians or the real observances you are going back to the law.

Do you honestly think there are only Jews and gentiles in this world or possibly that the Jews at the time of Messiah were all a bunch of mixed up tribes men and where we in historical writings there was also a huge group of dispersed people that Yeshua called the lost sheep of Israel who He came for and no one else, who Paul was sent out to bring back. What was the apostle asking Yeshua to restore to Israel? not to gentiles or Jews or Benjamites but to all the entire house of God's called out people and those who are grafted into the olive tree of Israel. I think that if you would stop seeing rabbinical Judaism and one group of people called the 'Jews' and see all who believe in God who keep His commandments and have the testimony of the Messiah as His Israel, His called out congregation/church thing might make a bit more sense. The new covenant we all cling to is not made with gentiles but with God's people Israel read it again for yourself then go to Jer. 31 and Due. 30 where we see this spoken of by Moses and the prophets. Do some digging the bible is a fascinating book, so much that no one in their life time could ever know whats hidden in plain sight!

Mizz

That 'real observances' bothers me I must admit, what real observances are you speaking about, the ones rome changed or the ones that our Messiah kept? where do we read in His words that when He dies and is resurrected that things were supposed to all change? How besides the confession of faith in Him set you apart in Him? remember atheist keep xmas, atheist give to charity and most are pretty decent people and often times most cannot tell the difference in actions of either group. How do you set yourself apart from the rest of the world? I prayerfully ask that you spend some time in the Tanakh or the OT start in Genesis and work your way through I bet you start seeing Him everywhere, start seeing much of the same language used by Yeshua and the apostles, and remember there must be a witness to whatever is said in the bible and that witness is in the OT.

[JCISGD]

Nebula, the earliest churches are all recorded as having met on the first day of the week, and no amount of wishing it not so will change that. Both Acts 20:7 and historical documents attest to this, and those that think Constantine changed things are also just plain wrong.

This is why i keep crying "Judaism" when anyone trys to bring Jewish observances into Christian practice.

Mizzdy i tried to open that file but i dont know how.

You can believe all you like that God would not change days and that the new covenant was not a radical change in observances but that doesnt make it so.

Im going to leave this discussion now as i have posted my proofs both scripture and historic, if you cant recieve them theres nothing i can do. I am fully convinced of my convictions and get no reproof from the Lord when i bring them before Him.

I also wrote a reply to your other post but at the last minute the internet dropped out. So i will just say that i owe you an apology as i went back over your posts and could not find the things i said you were saying. Did you delete any posts ?

[OneLight]

Nebula, the earliest churches are all recorded as having met on the first day of the week, and no amount of wishing it not so will change that. Both Acts 20:7 and historical documents attest to this, and those that think Constantine changed things are also just plain wrong.

This is why i keep crying "Judaism" when anyone trys to bring Jewish observances into Christian practice.

Mizzdy i tried to open that file but i dont know how.

You can believe all you like that God would not change days and that the new covenant was not a radical change in observances but that doesnt make it so.

Im going to leave this discussion now as i have posted my proofs both scripture and historic, if you cant recieve them theres nothing i can do. I am fully convinced of my convictions and get no reproof from the Lord when i bring them before Him.

I also wrote a reply to your other post but at the last minute the internet dropped out. So i will just say that i owe you an apology as i went back over your posts and could not find the things i said you were saying. Did you delete any posts ?

The file is a PDF that needs to be opened in Adobe Reader.

The Sabbath is a day of rest that God has chosen for us. Yet, Christ did good on that day, so what were we to rest from? From trying to do what is not in His will, but our will.

Sunday has been set aside because of the day Christ rose from the dead, but not once do we hear that it is the day we are suppose to assemble together. It is written that the early church did gather on this day, but it was not commanded that we do so. We can have "church" everyday and break bread everyday in His remembrance. To say that only one day is the only day is placing a stumbling block in the way of many who cannot gather on Sunday.

Because we choose to rest on Saturday does not make us followers of Judaism any more then going to church on Sunday makes one a Christian. One day is not above another in Him.

[nebula]

And so the question remains unanswered why he thinks we are claiming salvation apart from Christ.

[JCISGD]

And so the question remains unanswered why he thinks we are claiming salvation apart from Christ.

Ok i was feeling swamped but because you asked so nicely i will try one more time to explain my thinking, but i dont promise its logical

Firstly i need to correct Onelight, i am not and do not insist anyone observe any day in particular. Most pastors i know rest on a monday or friday.

Neb, if anyone chooses to observe saturday as their day of rest i have no problem.

But as soon as they try to tell me the seventh day is the real sabbath or that it is the same as the Lords Day, then that is wrong and is Judaism trying to foister its observances on christians, who are at liberty to ignore keeping the seventh day as they are now in the new covenant.

clear as mud?

[UncleAbee]

"This is the crux of everything we are discussing....whether Jesus sanctioned a specific act that the Church calls 'Communion', and took it out of the context of a national feast that was to be observed at a specific time on a yearly basis forever."

Col 2:16-17 - "16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. "

The Passover was given to the Israelites as law (Exodus 12:11). It was a foreshadowing of the salvation of Christ to come. The Isrealites were spared from death just as Christ spared the world from the death of sin. The Isrealites were spared from a physical death. We are spared by Christ from spiritual death. The OT law was about physical things. The NT law is about spiritual things. This is why what you look lke, where you live, and who you physically descend from has no bearing.

The question I asked has not been answered. How do you know what to do when you assemble for worship on Sunday? How do you know what practices to perform when worshipping God? Is Sunday even the right day to assemble for worship? I am discussing worship practices and where we get them from. If you answer that question then you will answer this Passover question.

1 Cor 5:7 - "7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. "

Edited December 9, 2010 by UncleAbee

[OneLight]

Firstly i need to correct Onelight, i am not and do not insist anyone observe any day in particular. Most pastors i know rest on a monday or friday.

Relax ... I never pointed a finger at you. I made a general statement.