Ark of the Covenant

[traveller]

trav is here! (just returned from a trip)

And, though I may not be posting a lot, I'm definitely reading.

[Fez]

Revelation 11:19

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

Could this mean that the temple of God was opened in heaven, but that the ark was seen in His temple here, on earth. or do you believe the scripture alludes to heaven only? And that the hail was here on earth and not in heaven?

Barnes says:-

And the temple of God was opened in heaven - The temple of God at Jerusalem was a pattern of the heavenly one, or of heaven, Heb_8:1-5. In that temple God was supposed to reside by the visible symbol of his presence - the Shekinah - in the holy of holies. See the notes on Heb_9:7. Thus God dwells in heaven, as in a holy temple, of which that on earth was the emblem. When it is said that that was

[Fez]

trav is here! (just returned from a trip)

And, though I may not be posting a lot, I'm definitely reading.

See Lekh, I told you!

[Miss Elly]

This is very interesting, Fez. It shows how active the devil is in the world, getting Muslims, Christians and Jews to fear one another and hate one another by creating rival eschatological systems to God's revealed plan and prophecies.

It's almost a test for us to see how we as Christians are going to respond to those who are just as convinced of the truthfulness of their own eschatological systems as we are of the Biblical one. Certainly, the loyalty of devout Muslims to their faith exceeds religious loyalty - it's a nationalistic, patriotic, political loyalty which seems to have its origin in the Ishmael/Isaac and the later Esau/Jacob days.

I've often thought about this. Imagine how Ishmael, only son and very beloved son of his father and only heir of his father, brought up to believe his father loves him and that his father's inheritance is his, not only gets his inheritance "stolen away" by his much, much younger half-brother, but gets sent away by his own father, with his mother and nothing but a sack-full of provisions. The hurt, the pain and later the anger that Ishmael must have felt. Ishmael had done nothing wrong, nothing to deserve such harsh treatment.

It shows just what consequences human attempts to force the promises of God or bring about what only God can bring about can do. Sarah was convinced that Abraham's seed would not come from her own body, and convinced Abraham to have the seed God promised him with Hagar. The consequences were, and been devastatingly tragic ever since.

Esau lost his birthright through his own doing, but was tricked out of his father's blessing, something which was not his own doing - and his own mother had helped his younger brother do this to him.

Can you imagine the amount of money psychiatrists would make out of these people today if the same sort of things were to recur in the lives of people we know?

The Muslims believe their eschatology, and they also know that if Islam does not succeed in it's world-domination, then Mohammed was a fake. It's uncanny how Orthodox Jews, Christian Zionists and Muslims all have a deep belief and sense that we are living in the last of the last days of the age, and how our eschatological systems rival one another: Orthodox Jews are waiting for the Messiah who will come and judge Israel's enemies and prove once and for all that the claim that Yeshua is the Messiah is a "lie".

Christian Zionists are waiting for Yeshua to come back, judge the enemies of Israel and "the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev.12: 17), and will prove once and for all that He is indeed the Son of God and true Messiah.

Muslims believe that the Mahdi is going to come and violently force all peoples to submit to Islam and the only Islamic creed: "There is only one God, Allah. and Mohammed is his prophet", and prove once and for all that Yeshua is not the Son of God and was merely a prophet, and they believe also that the Mahdi will kick the Jews out of Israel and Jerusalem for once and for all and prove once and for all that the inheritance does not belong to the Jews, and never did, after which there will be peace (an absence of war).

The devil is having a field-day, and though it is not surprising that devout Muslims are filled with hatred, yet as Christians many of us are falling into the same trap in the way we respond to them.

I know you know this, Fez, and so do many others here at Worthy. But I just think it needed to be said here, so that we can all be reminded to be on guard - because Satan is having a field-day getting people to hate one another and to bring about a devastating world-war by using these rival eschatologies he created, using men like Mohammed. So when we hear Muslims breathe hatred and threats against Jews, Christians and Western nations, we need to spot THE REAL enemy, and love the people whose hearts and minds are in his clutches, because it's an absolutely awful, awful state for them to be in.

This thing about the Muslims hunting so hard for the ark of the Covenant is another immense sign that we are indeed living in the last of the last days.

Lekh

Ishmael and his mother were godless heathens. The inheritance did not get stolen away from Issac, God planned for Issac to have it all along. Abraham and Sarah failed God, but once Issac, the child of promise was born, both Ismalel and Haagar should have realized what was going on. I believe they did, but they chose to be angry anyhow. The anger they felt actually was at God. It must have been a hard thing, but if either wanted to serve the Lord God, they could have.

It matters very little how fervently the muslims believe in Islam. Or the other religions as well, including unconverted Jews. They are fervently believing a lie. It is not to their praise how zealous and how devout they are in their religions, they are believing a lie and will be damned if they do not repent. That is the purpose of the Gospel - the good news. Our job is to tell them, that their blood not be on our hands.

And regardless of what Abraham's and Jacob's failings were, God used them for his purpose. They were mighty men of God. No, I do not hate muslims, I just hate the lies they believe and propogate.

[nebula]

Well, from their perspective . . . ?

Hagar began despising Sarah after becoming pregnant (why?), Sarah responded with abuse, the Lord had compassion on Hagar for her suffering.

Abraham must have raised Ishmael to be his heir - until Sarah became pregnant. Ishmael was verbally abusive towards Isaac (jealousy? revenge?).

I would agree they were angry.

But Jacob's family would have made any psychologist rich with an early retirement! Have you ever paid attention to their disfunction?

But after so many centuries, it is hard to imagine all this biterness being the root of the Arab-Israeli conflict. After all, it's questionable how many Arabs are actually Ishmaelites or Edomites. Before Islam, what was the Arab attitude towards Jerusalem? Were they crying for their "stolen" birthright?

So I would say the Arab desire for the Land of Israel and Jerusalem is Islam-founded only and is spiritual - Satan's desire to control the land that Jesus claimed for His own (see Revelation).

[Guest shiloh357]

The Arab/Muslim world has exploited the whole Ishmael/Isaac feud to their own ends, but the truth is, as Nebula said, the current conflict is really about's Islam and its thirst for domination. The current conflict really has nothing to do with Ishamael vs. Isaac.

[georgedrw81]

The Arab/Muslim world has exploited the whole Ishmael/Isaac feud to their own ends, but the truth is, as Nebula said, the current conflict is really about's Islam and its thirst for domination. The current conflict really has nothing to do with Ishamael vs. Isaac.

Other faiths do not have a reference point as christians do.Our reference point being God and Jesus. Humans try to dominate other humans but are only temporary and short lived.We are at times worried about the events around us but this is also temporary as we are filled with by God and jesus.

Blessings

[Babbler]

Oh, Yeah! I am so believing that they will find the ark; and Mary Poppins is my next door neighbor.

[lekh l'kha]

trav is here! (just returned from a trip)

And, though I may not be posting a lot, I'm definitely reading.

Welcome back! Hope your trip was great

[lekh l'kha]

The Arab/Muslim world has exploited the whole Ishmael/Isaac feud to their own ends, but the truth is, as Nebula said, the current conflict is really about's Islam and its thirst for domination. The current conflict really has nothing to do with Ishamael vs. Isaac.

I agree that the current conflict is really about's Islam and its thirst for domination, but Muslims are taught that it was Ishmael Abraham was going to sacrifice on the mountain, not Isaac, and they are taught that they are descended from Ishmael, and that's maybe why so many Muslims are given that name.

The point is, who was behind Abraham and Sarah's idea to have God's promise fulfilled through Hagar? Certainly not God - ever since the Garden of Eden, the serpent has been planting seeds of thought in the minds of humans which cause them to do things which have enormous and tragic consequences. Look to the spirit behind Sarah telling Abraham to have the son of promise come through Hagar, and you'll find the same spirit behind the birth of Islam, and the same spirit behind Adam and Eve's eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

This is why Muslims are taught and believe that Islam is the "original" faith of Abraham, and that Abraham and Ishmael, as well as Isaac, Jacob, Moses and all the prophets + Jesus were all devout Muslims, but the Jews and Christians corrupted their message and changed the Bible, which Mohammad then corrected. This is why it's so difficult to penetrate the hearts and minds of the deceived Muslims with the gospel.

In the same way, Roman Catholics are taught and believe that the R.C.C is the "original" church, and this is also why it's so difficult to penetrate the hearts and minds of the deceived Roman Catholics with the real gospel.

The same spirit which is behind all these deceptions is also behind the the deception of Replacement Theology, which teaches that the church, which is nothing more than the temple of Israel, which is the temple of God, has replaced God's chosen nation which is ethnically descended from Isaac and Jacob.