Who is the He in Daniel 9:27?

November 16, 2011

.... They already KNEW about this "Good News" and were anticipating it like a kid at Christmas time!'....

Amen~!

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Amen~!

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? Romans 11:15

Maranatha~!

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. Psalms 122:6

____________

_________

______

___

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

Openly Curious · November 18, 2011

name='logos7' timestamp='1279805088' post='1582612

Daniel 9:27---And HE shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

Jesus has already came and confirmed the new covenant with his blood and that one covenant includes both Jews and Gentiles. However many Jews did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah and do not believe in the new testament covenant as their belief is he is yet to come. It is the anti-christ who is coming to the Jewish people and wants to enter into covenant with them and they will not see the anti-christ as he really is. The anti-christ will come and make a sure covenant with the Jewish nation for a period of one week.

( scripture references: Isaiah 42:6 Hebrews 9:15-28 )

and in the midst of the week HE shall cause the sacrifce and oblation to cease,and

The covenant that the anti-christ made with the Jewish people you can see is short lived as he will brake the covenant in the middle of that week. What had the Jewsish people begun to do prior to the anti-christ breaking covenant with them in the middle of the week.

Daniel 9:25-26---Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescores and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times, vs. 26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off but not for himself and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary and the end thereof shall be with a flood and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Revelation 12:15-16

The Jewish people had begun restoration building up Jerusalem the street and the wall all being restored unto Messiah the Prince of peace. The Jewish prople were doing this during troublous. But there work being done to Messiah was cut off but it was not for himself (Jesus) that this was happening but for the prince of darkness the anti-christ. The anti-christ is going to stop the work of the Jews even their temple sacrifices and oblation he will cause to cease. A sacrifice is an offering given up to God and a oblation is the preparing of that offering up to God. There is a reason behind why the anti-christ wanted to put a stop to the offerings being made up to God.

for the overspreading of abominations HE shall make it desolate

You can see in this verse why he stopped the Jewish people from offerings up to God. It was solely for the purpose of desocrating the temple so in order for the anti-christ to do that he had to make it desolate.

even until the comsummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The temple is going to remain without any sacrifices going on as the verse tells us until the comsummation and what is determined will be poured upon the desolate meaning upon the altar which the Jewish people had been using to offer their sacrifices up to God. They the anti-christ broke his covanant he made with the Jewish people and hi-jacked the temple for his own purpose which was to desocrate the temple.

Daniel 9:27 I believe this scripture is speaking about the anti-christ.

Retrobyter · November 19, 2011

Shalom, Openly Curious.

Daniel 9:27---And HE shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

Jesus has already came and confirmed the new covenant with his blood and that one covenant includes both Jews and Gentiles. However many Jews did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah and do not believe in the new testament covenant as their belief is he is yet to come. It is the anti-christ who is coming to the Jewish people and wants to enter into covenant with them and they will not see the anti-christ as he really is. The anti-christ will come and make a sure covenant with the Jewish nation for a period of one week.
( scripture references: Isaiah 42:6 Hebrews 9:15-28 )

Before Yeshua` ever mentioned the New Covenant, He had already offered Himself as their King-apparent. He IS haMashiach Elohiym, the Messiah of God, the Anointed of God, the Selected by God, the One who is God's Representative to be Isra'el's King, her Melekh. Dani'el's record of Gavri'el's prophecy in Dan. 9:24-27 is NOT talking about the New Covenant, which is an extension of the Mosaic Covenant, but is about the DAVIDIC Covenant, which is an extension and a refinement of the Abrahamic Covenant. That's a different agreement altogether!

Furthermore, you are apparently stuck in the mentality that the "antichrist" is a person instead of an attitude. Modern premillennial theologians believe "antichrist" to be a person; Yochanan (John) said it was a "spirit," an ATTITUDE!

1 John 2:18-23

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

KJV

1 John 4:1-3

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

KJV

2 John 5-7

5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

KJV

Simply replace the word "Christ" (which comes from the Greek word "christos" which means "anointed") with "Messiah" (which comes from the Hebrew word "mashiach" which means "anointed"):

1 John 2:18-23

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that anti-Messiah shall come, even now are there many anti-Messiah's; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Messiah? He is anti-Messiah, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

KJV

1 John 4:1-3

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus is the Messiah come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus is the Messiah come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of anti-Messiah, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

KJV

2 John 5-7

5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus is the Messiah come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an anti-Messiah.

KJV

Now, you may be able to see more readily that the "spirit of antichrist" is the "attitude or the teaching against Yeshua` being the Messiah!" That's been going on for CENTURIES! MILLENNIA in fact!

No, as I've said before, the rules of Hebrew grammar - and even those of English grammar - teach us that the antecedent of the "He" and "he" in Dan. 9:27 has to be the "Messiah" of Dan. 9:26.

and in the midst of the week HE shall cause the sacrifce and oblation to cease,and

The covenant that the anti-christ made with the Jewish people you can see is short lived as he will brake the covenant in the middle of that week. What had the Jewsish people begun to do prior to the anti-christ breaking covenant with them in the middle of the week.

This is NOT "the covenant that the anti-christ made with the Jewish people"; it is the covenant that God made with David that was confirmed at Yeshua`s baptism:

1 Kings 8:22-25

22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven:

23 And he said, Lord God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.

25 Therefore now, Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.

KJV

1 Kings 9:2-5

2 That the Lord appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.

3 And the Lord said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

KJV

1 Chron 22:7-10

7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the Lord my God:

8 But the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.

9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.

10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.

KJV

1 Chron 28:2-8

2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:

3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.

4 Howbeit the Lord God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:

5 And of all my sons, (for the Lord hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel.

6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.

7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.

8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the Lord, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the Lord your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.

KJV

2 Chron 7:12-16

12 And the Lord appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.

13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;

14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.

16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

KJV

Ps 89:3-4

3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

KJV

Ps 89:16-37

16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.

17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.

18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.

22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.

24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

KJV

Matt 3:16-17

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

KJV

Mark 1:9-11

9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

KJV

Luke 3:21-22

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

KJV

Daniel 9:25-26---Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescores and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times, vs. 26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off but not for himself and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary and the end thereof shall be with a flood and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Revelation 12:15-16

The Jewish people had begun restoration building up Jerusalem the street and the wall all being restored unto Messiah the Prince of peace. The Jewish prople were doing this during troublous. But there work being done to Messiah was cut off but it was not for himself (Jesus) that this was happening but for the prince of darkness the anti-christ. The anti-christ is going to stop the work of the Jews even their temple sacrifices and oblation he will cause to cease. A sacrifice is an offering given up to God and a oblation is the preparing of that offering up to God. There is a reason behind why the anti-christ wanted to put a stop to the offerings being made up to God.

Yeshua` didn't break the covenant! He CONFIRMED the covenant! He made the covenant STRONGER! However, He DID leave them desolate for the wingspread of their abominations as they rejected God's Messiah (Matt. 23:37-39), and in the middle of the seven, He DID cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. He did this by COMPLETING the sacrifice as the Lamb of God and ending the need for daily sacrifices (Hebrews 10:1-22; Matt. 27:50-53)!

for the overspreading of abominations HE shall make it desolate

You can see in this verse why he stopped the Jewish people from offerings up to God. It was solely for the purpose of desocrating the temple so in order for the anti-christ to do that he had to make it desolate.

Yeshua` already fulfilled this in the past; some "antichrist" is NOT going to fulfill it in the future.

even until the comsummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The temple is going to remain without any sacrifices going on as the verse tells us until the comsummation and what is determined will be poured upon the desolate meaning upon the altar which the Jewish people had been using to offer their sacrifices up to God. They the anti-christ broke his covanant he made with the Jewish people and hi-jacked the temple for his own purpose which was to desocrate the temple.

Daniel 9:27 I believe this scripture is speaking about the anti-christ.

Well, actually it is the desolation that will be made until the consummation. Yeshua` has left the Jews, particularly the orthodox Jews of Jerusalem, desolate, and they will remain so until everything that was decided against them - the desolate - is fulfilled.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Retrobyter

Openly Curious · November 23, 2011

Before Yeshua' ever mentioned the New Covenant, He had already offered Himself as their King-apparent.....the Messiah of God, the Anointed of God, the Selected by God, the One who is God's Representative to be Israel King,... Daniels record of Gabriel's prophey in Daniel 9:24-27 is NOT talking about the New Covenant, which is an extension of the Mosaic Covenant, but is about the DAVIDIC Covenant, which is an extention and a refinement of the Abrahram Covenant. That's a different agreement altogether!

God did speak of the New Testament covenant before Jesus suffered the cross shedding his own blood for the remission of sin. The Lord spoke through the prophet Isaiah and he prophesied this-----(Isaiah 42:5-9)-----Thus saith the Lord God he that created heaven, and strethed them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:------vs.6) I the LORD haved called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, AND GIVE THEE FOR A COVENANT OF THE PEOPLE, FOR A LIGHT TO THE GENTILES. vs. 7) To open the blind eyes to bring the prisoners from the prison and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.----vs.8) I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.----vs. 9)----Behold the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

The scripture I just used was a promise of a new covenant where the Mosaic Covenant was done away with----(Hebrews 9:12-15)----because the shedding of the bulls, goats and calves never appeased the wrath of God as they continually sprinkled their blood and ashes on the mercy seat it never could wash away the sins the sins of man. If all the goats, bulls, and calves on the earth there blood wasn't enough to take away our sins. The Mosaic Covenant was the first covenant made with God and the children of Israel. Abraham had a covenant of promise with God before the law of Moses came into effect and because it was by promise and the promise is to all who put there trust and faith in Jesus shall be saved. The promises was made with Abraham and his seed (speaking of only one the Son of God and not many).

The first testament was our school master----(Galatians 3:22-23---- vs. 24-25---26-29) until Christ came.

The New Covenant is not an extension of the Mosaic Covenant nor is it about the Davidic Covenant being an extention or refinement of the Abrahamic covenant and you said that was a different agreement altogether. The New Covenant and the Old Covenant are not extentions of one another as scripture speaks on this very subject. I take it that you believe in three different covenants instead of only the OT and NT. Scripture tells us that the OT is done away with and the NT which was estabished upon better promises as the blood of Jesus brought in the New Testament covenant. It also said that a new covenant was made and the OT covenant being the first covenant that he made it "OLD." Then scripture tells us that the OT covenant has decayed and waxed "OLD" and ready to vanish away and that happened upon the resurrection of the body of Christ in the which it was the body of Christ that was the sacrifical offering that God required. Scripture goes on and tells us that the New Testament has superiority over the Old Testament.

(Hebrews 8:1-13 emphasis on vs. 6, 8-10, 13). The scripture next in Hebrews speaks of Christ's own body was the sarifical offering once for all and for the forgiveness of sins forever.

----(Hebrews 10:1-18)----

Furthermore, you are apparently stuck in the mentality that the "anti-christ" is a person instead of an attitude. Modern pre-millennial theologians believe "anti-christ" is a person, John said it was a "spirit," an ATTITUDE!

I'm not going to respond to all of the scripture you,ve given except for one as they are all saying the same thing that "antichrist" is only a spirit now and also in the end-time events. All of the other scripture are from 1 & 2 John. While we are living in this time-period there is a spirit of anti-christ that being every person who is a God-hater just any person who fights against Christ Jesus in anyway does have the anti-christ spirit working in and through their lives. But this time will not last forever and the last day will be up forever closed never to go back again. But the anti-christ is a literal being and not just a spirit when reading in the book of Revelation it is plain to see anti-christ is visibly real doing things as he is manifest no longer hid. It is literally impossible for all the things that will be going on in the end-times to be ruled all by a spirit of anti-christ it will take some flesh.

No, as I've said before, the rules of Hebrew grammer - and even those of English grammer - teach us that the antecedent of the "He" and "he" in Dan. 9:27 has to be the "Messiah" of Dan. 9:26

I at this time am still persuaded the He is anti-christ.

1 Kings 8:22-25
25 Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.
KJV

1 Kings 9:2-5
5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
KJV

1 Chron 22:7-10
10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
KJV

1 Chron 28:2-84
4Howbeit the Lord God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever, for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
KJV

2 Chron 7:12-16
16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
KJV

Ps 89:3-4
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
KJV

Ps 89:16-37
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seedalso will I make to endure for ever,and his throne as the days of heaven. (that sounds like for ever to me).
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me..
37 It shall be established for everas the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

Matt 3:16-17
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV

Mark 1:9-11
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased
KJV

Luke 3:21-22
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased
KJV

All of these verses are dealing with the covenant God made with King David. The covenant that was between him and God was that there would always be an heir to sit on the throne of David forever. It is not humanly possible to keep an heir sitting on the throne "FOREVER" because death becomes us all. But Jesus was a descendant an heir to the throne of David and when they crucified him on the cross then buried him and Christ arose from the dead ascened back to heaven and sat on the right hand side of the throne of God the Father.

The thing about Jesus being an heir to the throne of David is that he ever liveth an heir to the throne that never will die he will forever sitting on the throne of David as was promised in the covenant with David. What this means for us is that we are heirs descendants of a King that forever liveth and we ourselves being heirs forever and are his sons and daughters. And this is how we are called the sons of God as all are heirs and nothing can break the covenant that God made with David through Christ it has been "FULFILLED" forever and ever. Christ also was the firstborn as he was the first to be resurrected from the dead.

The covenant of promise that God made with Abraham has it's blessings in and of itself as it holds a truth within it also.

Retrobyter · November 27, 2011

Shalom, Openly Curious.

Before Yeshua' ever mentioned the New Covenant, He had already offered Himself as their King-apparent.....the Messiah of God, the Anointed of God, the Selected by God, the One who is God's Representative to be Israel King,... Daniels record of Gabriel's prophey in Daniel 9:24-27 is NOT talking about the New Covenant, which is an extension of the Mosaic Covenant, but is about the DAVIDIC Covenant, which is an extention and a refinement of the Abrahram Covenant. That's a different agreement altogether!

God did speak of the New Testament covenant before Jesus suffered the cross shedding his own blood for the remission of sin. The Lord spoke through the prophet Isaiah and he prophesied this----(Isaiah 42:5-9)----Thus saith the Lord God he that created heaven, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:----vs.6) I the LORD haved called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, AND GIVE THEE FOR A COVENANT OF THE PEOPLE, FOR A LIGHT TO THE GENTILES. vs. 7) To open the blind eyes to bring the prisoners from the prison and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.----vs.8) I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.----vs. 9)----Behold the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

The scripture I just used was a promise of a new covenant where the Mosaic Covenant was done away with----(Hebrews 9:12-15)----because the shedding of the bulls, goats and calves never appeased the wrath of God as they continually sprinkled their blood and ashes on the mercy seat it never could wash away the sins the sins of man. If all the goats, bulls, and calves on the earth there blood wasn't enough to take away our sins. The Mosaic Covenant was the first covenant made with God and the children of Israel. Abraham had a covenant of promise with God before the law of Moses came into effect and because it was by promise and the promise is to all who put there trust and faith in Jesus shall be saved. The promises was made with Abraham and his seed (speaking of only one the Son of God and not many).

I’m sorry but there’s just a WHOLE LOT wrong with this much. I have to break in here and correct some of the things you’re saying so others are not misled.

First, you’re right, God did speak of the New Covenant in the Tanakh (the OT), but I said, “Before Yeshua` ever mentioned the New Covenant He had already offered Himself as their King-apparent!” Not only do you need to keep the covenants separate, but you also need to learn how to keep the Trinity separate!

There’s a reason why God is referred to as Trinity or “Tri-unity!” They are three SEPARATE PERSONS, three INDIVIDUALS who co-exist as ONE GOD! The easiest way to recognize the Trinity is to look at the cross and its results: There, you had the Father acting as Judge on the sins of all mankind, the Son (Yeshua`) acting as the Sacrifice becoming the sins of all mankind, and “the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my (Yeshua`s) name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I (Yeshua`) have said unto you” (John 14:26, KJV).

You probably already “know” this, but may have forgotten because so many Christians in this time period have glossed over the difference between the Father and the Son. So much so, that many are attributing to the Son the attributes of the Father! Yet, He would be the first to set the matter straight if He were here physically!

Second, Isaiah 42:5-9 are NOT about the New Covenant; they are about the Davidic Covenant. Notice the word “THEE” in verse 6 that you emphasized. God (the Father) is speaking directly to the Son of God, Yeshua`, the Messiah. The New Covenant is found in Jeremiah 31:

Jer. 31:31-34

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

KJV

The New Covenant is not truly a replacement of the Old Covenant for notice: He said, “I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts.” The Law itself is not new; it’s the DELIVERY SYSTEM that is new, writing it on our hearts instead of on stone or parchment or vellum or paper!

So, we can conclude as did Rav Sha’uwl (Paul),

Rom. 7:9-14

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

KJV

The first testament was our school master----(Galatians 3:22-23---- vs. 24-25---26-29) until Christ came.

The New Covenant is not an extension of the Mosaic Covenant nor is it about the Davidic Covenant being an extention or refinement of the Abrahamic covenant and you said that was a different agreement altogether. The New Covenant and the Old Covenant are not extentions of one another as scripture speaks on this very subject. I take it that you believe in three different covenants instead of only the OT and NT. Scripture tells us that the OT is done away with and the NT which was estabished upon better promises as the blood of Jesus brought in the New Testament covenant. It also said that a new covenant was made and the OT covenant being the first covenant that he made it "OLD." Then scripture tells us that the OT covenant has decayed and waxed "OLD" and ready to vanish away and that happened upon the resurrection of the body of Christ in the which it was the body of Christ that was the sacrifical offering that God required. Scripture goes on and tells us that the New Testament has superiority over the Old Testament.
(Hebrews 8:1-13 emphasis on vs. 6, 8-10, 13). The scripture next in Hebrews speaks of Christ's own body was the sarifical offering once for all and for the forgiveness of sins forever.
----(Hebrews 10:1-18)----

First, I believe in MANY covenants! Any time and every time that God made a declarative promise to someone, it was a covenant, whether conditional – i.e., the recipient of the covenant had to do something to maintain it – or unconditional – i.e., God made a promise to the recipient in which he had to do nothing to maintain it. God promised certain things to Noach unconditionally (Gen. 6:18; 9:9-17). God promised certain things to Avraham unconditionally (Gen. 15:18; 17:2-21). God promised certain things to Yitschaq (Isaac), and to Ya`aqov (Jacob), and to Mosheh (Moses) and to the whole of the children of Yisra’el (Israel), and to David and to Shlomo (Solomon). There’s a long list of people!

However, there are CHAINS of promises that are really extensions of each other: The promises that God made to Avraham, for instance, were continued to Yitschaq and then to Ya`aqov (Yisra’el) as each one became the man in focus for his time. As Avraham’s family grew, God had to continually narrow the scope to show the route His blessings would take as the time of His Son drew nearer and nearer. The Davidic Covenant is within this chain. First, we are told that the ruler would come from Y’hudah (Judah); then, we are told that Sh’mu’el (Samuel) went to the household of Yishai (Jesse) where he anointed David to be God’s selection for king of Yisra’el. (That makes David a “messiah,” by the way.) Then, God made both conditional and unconditional promises to David and to his son, Shlomo, and although his children after him could not maintain the conditions and ultimately failed, God’s unconditional promises remained and eventually passed on to the Ultimate Messiah, Yeshua` (Jesus), who NEVER failed to keep God’s conditions and conquered sin forever.

You also need to know that there is a difference between a “covenant” and a “testament.” A “covenant,” which is the word exclusively in the Tanakh, is “an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something.” In Hebrew, it is the translation of the word “b’rit,” meaning an “in-cutting” and refers to the ritual that was performed when entering into an agreement: They would take animals, slay them, and cut them in half, laying them on either side of a path. Then, the two parties would make their promises to one another and pass together between the pieces, passing “IN between the CUTTINGS.”

A “testament,” on the other hand, “is a legal document disposing of one’s personal property after death.” It is a synonym for a “will.” The phrases “Old Testament” and “New Testament” are unfortunate labels for the first 39 books and the last 27 books, respectively. They really should read “Old Covenant” and “New Covenant,” which is why I prefer to call them the TaNaKh (an acronym from Torah-Navi’im-Ketuvim or Law-Prophets-Writings) and the B’rit Chadashah (Hebrew for “New Covenant”). The word “testament” is never used in the Tanakh, and every time the word is used in the B’rit Chadashah it is the SAME WORD as that translated “covenant,” “diatheekee.”

Any time that one reads the word “testament” in an English version of the Bible, the word should have been rendered “covenant.” This includes Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6, 14; Heb. 7:22; 9:15 (twice), 16, 17, 18, 20; and Rev. 11:19. Thus, it was not the “new testament” in Yeshua`s blood; it was the “new covenant” in His blood. THIS is when Yeshua` mentioned the “new covenant.” This can be seen because the Greek word “diatheekee” was used several times to translate the Hebrew word “b’rit.” This can be seen in Acts 3:25; Acts 7:8; and in Paul’s direct quotation of Jeremiah 31:34 in Romans 11:27.

We also learn of certain other promises made to the NATION known at the time as “b’neey Yisra’el” or the “children of Israel.” The Mosaic Covenant, as it is called, (the “Old” Covenant) was an agreement that God made with the nation Isra’el, and they promised to keep His “mitsvowt” or commandments, all 613 of them, as recorded in the Torah (the Pentateuch)! Each young Jew, upon reaching the age of 12 or 13, will enter into this agreement when he becomes a “Bar-Mitsvah” (a Son of the Commandment) or she becomes a Bat-Mitsvah (a Daughter of the Commandment). They promised to keep God’s mitsvowt in Ex. 19:8.

Now, dealing with Hebrews 8-10, AT NO TIME did the author of Hebrews ever say that the New Covenant REPLACED the Old! That’s a faulty interpretation of these chapters. Again, it was not the COVENANT that became “old”; it was the DELIVERY SYSTEM of the Covenant that became “old” about to vanish away. The Law of the Lord is perfect and will last forever because it may be kept forever!

Furthermore, you are apparently stuck in the mentality that the "anti-christ" is a person instead of an attitude. Modern pre-millennial theologians believe "anti-christ" is a person, John said it was a "spirit," an ATTITUDE!

I'm not going to respond to all of the scripture you’ve given except for one as they are all saying the same thing that "antichrist" is only a spirit now and also in the end-time events. All of the other scripture are from 1 & 2 John. While we are living in this time-period there is a spirit of anti-christ that being every person who is a God-hater just any person who fights against Christ Jesus in anyway does have the anti-christ spirit working in and through their lives. But this time will not last forever and the last day will be up forever closed never to go back again. But the anti-christ is a literal being and not just a spirit when reading in the book of Revelation it is plain to see anti-christ is visibly real doing things as he is manifest no longer hid. It is literally impossible for all the things that will be going on in the end-times to be ruled all by a spirit of anti-christ it will take some flesh.

No, as I've said before, the rules of Hebrew grammer - and even those of English grammer - teach us that the antecedent of the "He" and "he" in Dan. 9:27 has to be the "Messiah" of Dan. 9:26
I at this time am still persuaded the He is anti-christ.

Well, I can understand why you would feel that way. It’s hard to digest new information that goes against what you have been taught. However, the truth still is that the “he” of verse 27 CANNOT find its antecedent in the “prince that shall come” of verse 26. That leaves the antecedent to be the Messiah of verses 25 and 26.

1 Kings 8:22-25
25 Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.
KJV

1 Kings 9:2-5
5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
KJV

1 Chron 22:7-10
10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
KJV

1 Chron 28:2-84
4Howbeit the Lord God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever, for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
KJV

2 Chron 7:12-16
16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
KJV

Ps 89:3-4
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
KJV

Ps 89:16-37
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seedalso will I make to endure for ever,and his throne as the days of heaven. (that sounds like for ever to me).
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me..
37 It shall be established for everas the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

Matt 3:16-17
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV

Mark 1:9-11
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased
KJV

Luke 3:21-22
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased
KJV

All of these verses are dealing with the covenant God made with King David. The covenant that was between him and God was that there would always be an heir to sit on the throne of David forever. It is not humanly possible to keep an heir sitting on the throne "FOREVER" because death becomes us all. But Jesus was a descendant an heir to the throne of David and when they crucified him on the cross then buried him and Christ arose from the dead ascened back to heaven and sat on the right hand side of the throne of God the Father.

The thing about Jesus being an heir to the throne of David is that he ever liveth an heir to the throne that never will die he will forever sitting on the throne of David as was promised in the covenant with David. What this means for us is that we are heirs descendants of a King that forever liveth and we ourselves being heirs forever and are his sons and daughters. And this is how we are called the sons of God as all are heirs and nothing can break the covenant that God made with David through Christ it has been "FULFILLED" forever and ever. Christ also was the firstborn as he was the first to be resurrected from the dead.

The covenant of promise that God made with Abraham has it's blessings in and of itself as it holds a truth within it also.

I find it interesting that you contradicted yourself when you said, “The covenant that was between him and God was that there would always be an heir to sit on the throne of David forever. It is not humanly possible to keep an heir sitting on the throne "FOREVER" because death becomes us all,” and then followed this right away with “The thing about Jesus being an heir to the throne of David is that he ever liveth an heir to the throne that never will die he will forever sitting on the throne of David as was promised in the covenant with David.” So, you KNOW the truth, but you seem to have trouble rectifying it with your theology. This is one reason why the RESURRECTION is so important! We don’t “go to heaven to live forever with God”; we are RESURRECTED to live forever with God’s Messiah when He comes BACK to earth! Furthermore, the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth after this earth is rennovated, and “GOD DWELLS WITH US,” not “we with God!” (Rev. 21:1-4).

Rev. 21:1-4

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

KJV

douggg · November 27, 2011

There’s a reason why God is referred to as Trinity or “Tri-unity!” They are three SEPARATE PERSONS, three INDIVIDUALS who co-exist as ONE GOD! The easiest way to recognize the Trinity is to look at the cross and its results: There, you had the Father acting as Judge on the sins of all mankind, the Son (Yeshua`) acting as the Sacrifice becoming the sins of all mankind, and “the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my (Yeshua`s) name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I (Yeshua`) have said unto you” (John 14:26, KJV).

Hi Roy, "distinguishable" as three persons, not separate. One God, but not simplistically one.

Jesus said I and my Father are one, John 10:30. Yet Jesus said the Father is greater than he, John 10:28. So we have to resolve that and other issues.

God is not a man, that He should lie, Numbers 23:19. Yet, Thomas worshiped Jesus saying, "My Lord and my God" , and Jesus didn't rebuke him.

Jesus is the first borne of all creation, yet he was not born until 4000 years after Adam, Colossians 1:15. Yet Jesus made the world and everything in it.

Jesus is the Son of God. Yet, he is the Son of Man.

Okay, Jesus said he came forth from the Father, and not the other way around.... so that is why the Father is greater than he. Jesus was born into this world through Mary, but he did not say he came forth from Mary. So the coming forth from the Father clearly identifies him as God.

Before there was anything of creation, there was only God, not even a empty space. Within Himself, being Spirit, He set a boundary for creation. Thus, God is omnipresent throughout creation. Into the set boundary for creation, God came forth from Himself, having attributes that creation, by His design, could perceive. The Lord of Heaven. The first born of all creation, meaning God coming forth from Himself was the first act of Creation. That's who Jesus, before being born of Mary, is. The Lord of Heaven.

God is not a man. So the question is "what" is man? Man is a created spirit being because we continue to exist after the body dies. Jesus was not a created spirit being. He was/is/is to come God. This is difficult for some to comprehend, because we go by the eye, and the eye can not see us as created spirit beings. But that is "what" we are, not who we are. "Who" we are, our uniqueness as individuals, is registered as our souls. Which after death, a person retains their own individual identity.

Us

a created spirit being

have a physical human body

have a soul, free will of our own

Jesus

God, the creator

had a physical human body

had a soul, free will of his own

Jesus got his humanity from Mary, yet being God before entering this world, and existing before creation coming forth from the Father, One God, as the Son of God, even the demons knew who he was.

Doug

Edited November 27, 2011 by douggg

Retrobyter · November 27, 2011

Shalom, douggg.

There’s a reason why God is referred to as Trinity or “Tri-unity!” They are three SEPARATE PERSONS, three INDIVIDUALS who co-exist as ONE GOD! The easiest way to recognize the Trinity is to look at the cross and its results: There, you had the Father acting as Judge on the sins of all mankind, the Son (Yeshua`) acting as the Sacrifice becoming the sins of all mankind, and “the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my (Yeshua`s) name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I (Yeshua`) have said unto you” (John 14:26, KJV).

Hi Roy, "distinguishable" as three persons, not separate. One God, but not simplistically one.

Okay, I'll grant you that one. Sometimes, it's hard to use exactly the right word; perhaps, a better word I should have used would be "distinct," which is related to your word "distinguishable." They are three DISTINCT Persons, not separate.

Jesus said I and my Father are one, John 10:30. Yet Jesus said the Father is greater than he, John 10:28. So we have to resolve that and other issues.

Yes, and we have many, MANY more distinctions! He is "ho Logos," the Word and has been with God and has been God since before the Beginning, and yet, He has an origin:

John 1:1-3, 14

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

...

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

KJV

Psalm 2:1-12

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

KJV

Also, one may trace the authority of Judgment:

Avraham said to God, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" in Gen. 18:25. In 1 Sam. 2:10, Sh'mu'el (Samuel) said, "The LORD shall judge the ends of the earth." First Chronicles 16:33 says, "Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD, because he cometh to judge the earth." Then, we have these Psalms:

Psalm 50:1-6

1 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

KJV

Psalm 67:1-5

1 God be merciful unto us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine upon us; Selah.

2 That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations.

3 Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee.

4 O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

5 Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee.

KJV

Psalm 82:1-8

1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

KJV

Psalm 94:1-3

1 O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself.

2 Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud.

3 Lord, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph?

KJV

Psalm 96:1-13

1 O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth.

2 Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day.

3 Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people.

4 For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.

5 For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

6 Honour and majesty are before him: strength and beauty are in his sanctuary.

7 Give unto the LORD, O ye kindreds of the people, give unto the LORD glory and strength.

8 Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come into his courts.

9 O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.

10 Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.

12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice

13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

KJV

Psalm 98:1-9

1 O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.

2 The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.

3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.

5 Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.

6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.

7 Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

8 Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together

9 Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

KJV

Then, we have Messianic prophecies, such as this one (and perhaps some of the psalms above):

Isaiah 11:1-4

1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

KJV

And, finally, we have some verses in the B'rit Chadashah (the NT):

John 5:19-47

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men.

42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

KJV

And, finally, we have the transfer of judgment authority in the Kingship back to the Father at a time after death is destroyed:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

KJV

And, we can learn from Revelation 20:7-15 that the time of death's destruction is AFTER the Millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Thus, there is a definite distinction!

God is not a man, that He should lie, Numbers 23:19. Yet, Thomas worshiped Jesus saying, "My Lord and my God" , and Jesus didn't rebuke him.

Jesus is the first borne of all creation, yet he was not born until 4000 years after Adam, Colossians 1:15. Yet Jesus made the world and everything in it.

Jesus is the Son of God. Yet, he is the Son of Man.

Okay, Jesus said he came forth from the Father, and not the other way around.... so that is why the Father is greater than he. Jesus was born into this world through Mary, but he did not say he came forth from Mary. So the coming forth from the Father clearly identifies him as God.

Let's stop there a moment: I need to say three things on all this:

First, be careful with the word "firstborn." It has to do with the passing of property from the father to the son, the heir. "Born" is related to "birth," but "borne" is related to "carried!" Although there is some vague connection between the two, i.e. a woman "carries" her baby in the uterus for 40 weeks (more or less) and then continues to "carry" her baby after birth, yet here, too, there is a distinction. The firstborn, which comes from the fact that it was usually and literally to the first son born in a family, has to do with who will inherit the land and the cattle and livestock owned by a father. However, we have three generations in a row in which the first one born was not the firstborn! Ya`aqov (Jacob), Y'hudah (Judah), and Efrayim (Ephraim) all were not the first ones born in their respective near families, and yet, the right of the firstborn passed to each of them. All the ones actually born first or prior in all of these families, Esav (Esau), Re`uven (Reuben), Shim`own (Simeon), Leviy (Levi) and Manasheh (Manasseh) - for various reasons - were all ruled out of being the firstborn.

In the case of Colossians 1:15, Yeshua` WAS/IS the rightful Heir to the earth, regardless of when He was physically born!

Second, Yeshua` IS the "Son of God." Although He was usually called that by someone else, there are some instances where He called Himself that (Matt. 27:43; Luke 22:70; John 3:18; 5:25; 9:35-37; 10:36; 11:4; 19:7; and Rev. 2:18), but we must be careful with the term "God the Son." NOWHERE in Scripture will you find that phrase! That phrase comes PURELY from theology! His favorite label for Himself was "Son of man," which simply and literally means "Son of Adam" in the Hebrew (Ben-Adam). In practice, it means a "son of a human being," for the Hebrew word "adam" (which fundamentally means "red," like "Edom," which is the same word) was used for any human being. When one wanted to refer to the original man whose name was "Adam," the definite article "ha-" was added to make "ha-Adam," or "THE-Adam." Therefore, the words "son of man" meant a true human being, a man of the human race.

Third, when you said, "Jesus was born into this world through Mary, but he did not say he came forth from Mary," you're right. Miryam was His human mother, but He wasn't cloned from her or He would have been female. You can't get a Y-chromosome from an XX-chromosome pair! There was a form of creation involved to form His body that occurred when the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) of God "overshadowed" her.

Before there was anything of creation, there was only God, not even a empty space. Within Himself, being Spirit, He set a boundary for creation. Thus, God is omnipresent throughout creation. Into the set boundary for creation, God came forth from Himself, having attributes that creation, by His design, could perceive. The Lord of Heaven. The first born of all creation, meaning God coming forth from Himself was the first act of Creation. That's who Jesus, before being born of Mary, is. The Lord of Heaven.

Again, I must stop you. This is all purely theological speculation, but you don't have to explain Col. 1:15-17 away. There is NOTHING in the statement that demands that Yeshua` was the first created Being! That's just a misunderstanding of the English phrase, "the firstborn of every creature," and the Greek phrase, "proototokos pasees ktiseoos." The word "proototokos," translated as "firstborn," literally means "first-born," but it was also the word used for translation (in Heb. 11:28) of the Hebrew word "bekhowr," also translated as "firstborn" (in Exo. 11:12-13).

As far as the "Lord of Heaven" is concerned, Yeshua` Himself called His father that in Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21, and God was called that in Acts 17:24, but Yeshua` was never called that. Technically, in 1 Corinthians 15:47, Yeshua` was called in the English translation "the second man is the Lord FROM heaven" but the Greek doesn't use the whole phrase! The Greek of the Textus Receptus is split between "ho deuteros anthroopos ex ouranou," found in the Lachmann text of 1842-1850, the Tischendorf, Eighth Edition of 1865-1872, the Tregelles text of 1857-1872 and the Alford vol iv. text of 1862, 1870 and doesn't use the word "kurios" ("Lord") at all and "ho deuteros anthroopos ho kurios ex ouranou," found in the Stephens text of 1550 and the Elzevir text of 1624 which together are called the Received Text or the Textus Receptus proper, the Griesbach text of 1805, and the Wordsworth text of 1870!

The Greek New Testament, produced by the United Bible Societies and edited by Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Carlo M. Martini, Bruce M. Metzger, and Allen Wikgren in cooperation with the Institute for New Testament Textual Research, Munster/Westphalia (3rd Edition), copyrighted 1966, 1968, and 1975, says that it is fairly certain that the text should just be "anthroopos" as found in Alef*, B, C, D*, G, 0243, 33, 1738*, it (ar,d,dem,e,f,g,x,z), vg, cop(bo), eth, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen(gr1/2,lat), Cyprian, Adamantius, Peter-Alexandria, Ambrosiaster, Hilary, Athenasius, Priscillian, Gregory-Nazianzus(acc. to Theodoret), Gregory-Elvira, Gregory-Nyssa, Ambrose, Epiphanius, Ps-Athanasius. The text was just "ho kurios" in 630 (Marcion), and was "anthroopos ho kurios" in Alef©, A, D©, K, P, Psi, 81, 104, 181, 326, 330, 436, 451, 614, 629, 1241, 1739(tug), 1877, 1881, 1962, 1984, 1985, 2127, 2492, 2495, Byz, Lect, syr(p,h,pal), goth, arm, Origen(gr1/2), Basil, Chrysostom, Maximinus(acc. to Augustine), Cyril, Euthalius, Theodoret, Ps-Athanasius, Cosmas, John-Damascus. Finally, the text was "anthroopos pneumatikos" in p(46), and omitted entirely in the cop(sa), and Cyril texts.

Thus, it is their opinion, with fair certainty, that the text was just "anthroopos" without "ho kurios."

The bottom line in all of this is that Yeshua` is NOT called "the Lord of heaven"; He is called "the man, the Lord FROM heaven" or just "the man FROM heaven." And, actually, the word "ex" means "OUT OF" or "OUT FROM" and is a directional preposition.

"Ek - preposition, (meaning) out, out of, from within, used with the ablative only. Ex before words beginning with a vowel." - Beginner's Grammar of the Greek New Testament by William Hersey Davis (Wipf and Stock Publishers, Eugene, OR, 1999), p. 43.

Furthermore, you need to understand that the Greek word "ouranos," translated "heaven," means "the sky" or even "the atmosphere." It is NOT talking about above the atmosphere because Paul and the author of Hebrews had another word for that, "epouranios," adding on the prepositional prefix "ep-," short for "epi," meaning "above, over, or upon."

And, when you take into account that the word "kurios," translated "Lord," means a "master, mister, sir, sire, or lord (as of a manor or of an estate)," this verse is not be talking about His divinity at all! He'll just be the Master who comes FROM THE SKY!

God is not a man. So the question is "what" is man? Man is a created spirit being because we continue to exist after the body dies. Jesus was not a created spirit being. He was/is/is to come God. This is difficult for some to comprehend, because we go by the eye, and the eye can not see us as created spirit beings. But that is "what" we are, not who we are. "Who" we are, our uniqueness as individuals, is registered as our souls. Which after death, a person retains their own individual identity.

Us
a created spirit being
have a physical human body
have a soul, free will of our own

Jesus
God, the creator
had a physical human body
had a soul, free will of his own

Jesus got his humanity from Mary, yet being God before entering this world, and existing before creation coming forth from the Father, One God, as the Son of God, even the demons knew who he was.

Doug

Lastly, we need to talk about "soul" and "spirit":

First, "spiritual" does NOT mean "other worldly" or "non-physical!" It means MORE physical, MORE powerful! Look at this quote from 1 Cor. 15: “So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.” (1Co 15:42-44) "Imperishable" means "never able to die again." "In glory" means "in brightness!" "A spiritual body" comes from the Greek words "sooma pneumatikon" and is contrasted with the "natural body" which comes from the Greek words "sooma psuchikon." "Pneumatikon" is the adjective form of "pneuma" which means ...

NT:4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah); from NT:4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:

KJV - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare NT:5590.

... and "psuchikon" is the adjective form of "psuchee" which means ...

NT:5590 psuchee (psoo-khay'); from NT:5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from NT:4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from NT:2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew OT:5315, OT:7307 and OT:2416):

KJV - heart (+-ily), life, mind, soul, us, you.

Notice that the word comes from ...

NT:5594 psuchoo (psoo'-kho); a primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from NT:4154, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of NT:109, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively):

KJV - wax cold.

Thus, the fundamental difference between the two words is that "psuchee" means the animated person or animal that "breathes" while the "pneuma" is the "blast of air" from a forceful blowing! Now, look at the rest of verse 44 and following:

1 Cor 15:44-49

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

NIV

The first man Adam became a living being or a living soul. That means that his body was breathing! The last Adam, Yeshua`, became a life-giving spirit! That means He had the blast of air from God that could give the first man Adam the breath of life! However, one is not given the BLASTING power before he has the BREATHING power! The first man was made from the dust of the ground; the second man from the sky! As the earthly man was, so are those who are from the ground. On the other hand, as the man from the sky is, so also are those who are from the sky! And, just like we've carried the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we carry the likeness of the man from the sky! Therefore, we are not talking about a "spiritual" body that has no tangible form, no physical structure, and an airy, insubstantive, ethereal pseudo-body, but a SUPERNATURAL body that is tangible, physical, concrete, substantive, REAL BODY, more powerful than the physical bodies we have now! THAT'S what the word "spiritual" means! It means a super-body! A body that is able to breathe life into someone else!

Now, if I NEVER hear this phrase again, it'll be too soon! "My kingdom is not of this world" (Jn. 18:36) does NOT mean that it is not of this EARTH! There's a formidable difference between the "world" (Greek: kosmos) and the "earth" (Greek: gee [pronounced "gay"]). The "world" is a "world-SYSTEM," particularly a "political system!" The "earth" is the "dirt," or the "ground," or the "land," or the complete range of ground which we today call the "earth" as the surface of our planet. We could also say that "earth," especially the Greek word "gee" means the "topsoil!" Thus, when Yeshua` was talking to the Roman Prefect known as Pontius Pilate, He was saying His Kingdom was not of the political systems of which he, as a Roman, would be familiar! He was NOT saying it was not of this planet! Now, read it that way in its context:

John 18:36-37

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

KJV

I truly hope this gives you a clearer perspective on these verses!

So, your tables should be worded a little differently:

Us

created beings from the soil

having a physical, breathing, human body (sooma psuchikos)

given the breath of life (the spirit, ruach/pneuma)

and so joined, being a soul (nefesh/psuchee) - a living breather (psucheen zoosan)

made in the image of God having a free will of our own

Jesus

the Word of God, the Son of God and man from the sky

having a MORE physical, blasting, human body (sooma pneumatikos)

GIVING the breath of life in a blast (ruach/pneuma)

and so joined, being a life-giving spirit or breath, (pneuma zoo-opoioun)

being the express image of God having a free will of his own

And, we will follow in His likeness at the Resurrection.

Montana Marv · January 23, 2012

The "he" in Daniel 9:27 is Jesus. There is no other individual mentioned in that passage at all. It's all about Israel, Jerusalem and Jesus.

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"unto Messiah the Prince" aka "the prince that shall come", aka "he" throughout.

It is Jesus who confirms the covenant (New Covenant) with many of Israel. He confirmed it for 3 1/2 years during his ministry and he will confirm it for 3 1/2 more during the time of wrath (144,000 sealed).

There is a 2000 year gap in the middle of the 70th week to allow the gentiles to come in:

Romans 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

It is Jesus who came after the 69th week, for the 70th week, and was cut off in the middle of it, ending the need for sacrifices.

It is Jesus (the prince who was to come) who sent HIS armies (Romans) to desolate Israel.

Matt 22: 7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Isaiah 47: 6I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and given them into thine hand: thou didst shew them no mercy; upon the ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke.

It was Jesus who sent the Roman armies to desolate Israel until the time of the end ("until the consummation")

It is through Jesus that all of the "tasks" of the 24th verse will be complete for Israel and Jerusalem.

Jen

The prince to come was Titus, the one who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Jesus Never made a seven year covenant with anyone. It was not the New Covenant. The New Covenant has been going on for the past 2000 years, so this was not a 7 year covenant. Jesus making a seven year covenant is not in Scripture

The Messiah being cut off, the people of the prince to come, and the "He shall make a covenant with many for One Week" are three different events by different individuals spread out over time.

The "He shall confirm a covenant with many for One Seven" will be the leader of Rev 13, the whole world will follow after him. Matt 24:15 - So when you see standing in the holy place the A/D spoken by the prophet Daniel...FLEE. This is at the mid point of the One Seven. A One Seven is a Whole One Seven. No one fled after Christs crucifixion.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Bold Believer · January 23, 2012

Shabbat shalom, Montana Marv.

Roy

If what you say is true, What covenant then did Christ confirm with many for one seven at the onset of His Ministry. It had to be immediately after His Baptism. Christ made no such covenant at the onset of His Ministry. Your "He/he" all hangs on this, a seven year covenant. Scripture would be nice to support this.

In Christ
Montana Marv

Well, it was not the NEW Covenant that the Preterists claim; it was the Abrahamic Covenant through to the Davidic Covenant. You can summarize to say that it was the Davidic Covenant specifically:

1 Chron. 17:7-14
7 Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel:
8 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth.
9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,
10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the Lord will build thee an house.
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
KJV

This was said about Shlomo (Solomon) in particular, but it was also said about the Messiah Yeshua` (Christ Jesus) while yet being in the loins of His father Shlomo, especially the part about "I will be his father, and he shall be my son!" God looks down the corridors of time all at once, and NOTHING takes Him by surprise! Here's some more:

1 Chron. 28:2-5
2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:
3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.
4 Howbeit the Lord God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:
5 And of all my sons, (for the Lord hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel.
KJV

2 Chron 21:5-7
5 Jehoram was thirty and two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.
6 And he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, like as did the house of Ahab: for he had the daughter of Ahab to wife: and he wrought that which was evil in the eyes of the Lord.
7 Howbeit the Lord would not destroy the house of David, because of the covenant that he had made with David, and as he promised to give a light to him and to his sons for ever.
KJV

Ps. 89:1-4, 28-37
1 I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
...
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

Isa. 55:1-5
1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
KJV

Jer. 33:19-26
19 And the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20 Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
23 Moreover the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying,
24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the Lord hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
25 Thus saith the Lord; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
KJV

THIS is the covenant that Yeshua` ratified with the children of Y'hudah, the Jews. Just as David reigned over the house of Y'hudah for 7.5 years and THEN was anointed King over all Isra'el, so too Yeshua` was supposed to reign over Y'hudah for seven years before reigning over the whole house of Isra'el. This didn't happen because of the politics of His day. The elders of Y'hudah - the cohaniym (priests), the P'rushiym (Pharisees; Separatists), the Tsadduqiym (the Sadducees, "Righteous-ones"), and the scribes (transcribers or copyists of the Torah) would not accept Him as the Messiah of God to be King over Isra'el; they CHOSE not to accept Him! And, as prophesied, they crucified Him - cut Him off - midway through that time!

Look again at the baptism of Yeshua` in the Yarden (Jordan) River:

Matt. 3:5-17
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV

Mark 1:6-15
6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

Luke 3:1-22
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
18 And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.
19 But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done,
20 Added yet this above all, that he shut up John in prison.
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
KJV

John 1:22-36
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
KJV

I'd be willing to bet that most Christians, being Gentiles, do not understand that THIS is a fulfillment of 1 Chronicles 17:13!

Also, most Christians, being Gentiles and not Jews (or rather, Isra'elis), don't understand that the "gospel of the kingdom of God" was WELL KNOWN ALREADY when Yeshua` came! The listeners were not told what it was; they were merely instructed to do a "one-eighty" and BELIEVE the gospel! The gospel or good news about the Kingdom of God was already given in the Tanakh (the OT) in Isaiah 52:7:

Isa. 52:7-10
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.
9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
KJV

THAT'S the "gospel of the Kingdom of God!" THAT'S the "good news" or "good tidings" about His Kingdom! THY GOD REIGNETH!!! And, once again, the word "salvation" here is NOT talking about individual justification by God. It is talking about the national RESCUE OF ISRA'EL!

In the Messiah's love,
Roy

Interesting take Retro. So the New Covenant in his blood is not the Covenant of Daniel 9:27?

Israel must still come to Messiah though to receive the blessings, because He is the Heir, yes?

Montana Marv · January 24, 2012

Jen

Oh yes it does;

Seventy sevens are decreed for your people (Daniels people,Israel) and your holy city (Jerusalem) to:.....

The seventy sevens are for Israel and Jerusalem and that is it. The issuing of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the Anointed One being cut off are markers. The onset of the first seven and the end of the 69th seven. That's all.

Where in Scripture did Christ make a seven year covenant. Book, chapter and verse would be nice. If one cannot provide this Scripture (your interpretation of the "he" in Daniel 9:27 is meaningless).

Matt 24:15,16 (Jesus says) So when you see standing in the holy place the A/D spoken by the prophet Daniel (this is referring to Daniel 9:27). So this is not the timing of the crucifixion and not referring to Jesus.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Sign In

Join Worthy Christian Forums today!

Who is the He in Daniel 9:27?

Recommended Posts

Guest

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Openly Curious

Retrobyter

Openly Curious

Retrobyter

douggg

Retrobyter

Montana Marv

Bold Believer

Montana Marv

Recently Browsing 0 members

Our picks

Exhortation - October 24, 2024

Picked By

The Simchat Torah War -- Is this a Water Breaking Moment of Revival?

Picked By

Understanding the Enemy!

Picked By

Daniel: Pictures of the Resurrection, Part 3

Picked By

Abraham and Issac: Pictures of the Resurrection, Part 2

Picked By