Vision during worship

[nebula]

I do not believe the "one will be taken" refers to being taken to safety (raptured).

I believe the expression "to be taken" refers to those taken with the destruction. (i.e. Noah and his family were saved, the rest of the world was taken).

[sdktlk]

Also

Matthew 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Same thing - different version (Matthew's versus Luke's).

I didn't relate that verse to the first vision. I'm going to think and pray about that, might be relating to that verse. I've heard the reason why vulture wasn't added was because it was considered a curse word around that time but not sure. Thanks for reminding me of that.

It seems the ancient words didn't distinguish the two birds very well. One has to read the context.

Eagles don't gather around carcasses! One might, but not a group.

This is not about the visions but since the conversation seemed to gravitate to Mat 24 & Luk 17 I'll add a little here. In the context of Luke 17 the Lord is talking about "one being taken and the other left." When the disciples asked, "Where Lord?" Jesus said, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." (v.37) The Greek word sōma, here interpreted "the body," means exactly that, the body (as a sound whole.) This is about the saints being taken to a place where the Body of Christ is completely assembled as a sound whole. It is clearly not a rapture for we see that these one's do have an opportunity to turn back. This will not be so in "the twinkling of an eye" event we about read in 1Cor 15:52, for here the disciples are exhorted to "remember Lot's wife." This gathering would be something worthy of investigation.

In the context of Mat 24 the Lord is talking about, " if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The Lord is giving reference to events that will happen AFTER what is called the Great Tribulation Period. He says, "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." (v.28) The Greek word ptōma, here interpreted carcase, means just that, a dead body, carcase, corpse. That being the case then rather than "eagle" it should in fact be vulture. Neb said it clearly, a dead body is what attracts vultures. Symbolically these carrion eating birds would speak of demonics. This "dead body" gathering is something that is also worthy of investigation.

Yours in Christ

How many ressurections of the Just do you believe that there are then? I see only One in Scripture.

This gathering has nothing to do with a resurrection or rapture, it has to do with a "catching away." We see an example of this in Acts 8:39-40 where it is written, " And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord CAUGHT AWAY Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea." The gathering the Lord is speaking of in Matthew is this type of catching away.

[sdktlk]

I do not believe the "one will be taken" refers to being taken to safety (raptured).

I believe the expression "to be taken" refers to those taken with the destruction. (i.e. Noah and his family were saved, the rest of the world was taken).

The taking referred to in Matthew is with respect to those one's being taken to a gathering where a healthy, wholesome body is. It cannot possibly be referring to the "wicked" being taken to a place of wholeness. Matthew is a gathering of the saints. Luke, on the other hand, refers to something entirely different, which takes place after the great tribulation.

Edited January 27, 2011 by sdktlk

[Matthitjah]

Also

Matthew 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Same thing - different version (Matthew's versus Luke's).

I didn't relate that verse to the first vision. I'm going to think and pray about that, might be relating to that verse. I've heard the reason why vulture wasn't added was because it was considered a curse word around that time but not sure. Thanks for reminding me of that.

It seems the ancient words didn't distinguish the two birds very well. One has to read the context.

Eagles don't gather around carcasses! One might, but not a group.

This is not about the visions but since the conversation seemed to gravitate to Mat 24 & Luk 17 I'll add a little here. In the context of Luke 17 the Lord is talking about "one being taken and the other left." When the disciples asked, "Where Lord?" Jesus said, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." (v.37) The Greek word sōma, here interpreted "the body," means exactly that, the body (as a sound whole.) This is about the saints being taken to a place where the Body of Christ is completely assembled as a sound whole. It is clearly not a rapture for we see that these one's do have an opportunity to turn back. This will not be so in "the twinkling of an eye" event we about read in 1Cor 15:52, for here the disciples are exhorted to "remember Lot's wife." This gathering would be something worthy of investigation.

In the context of Mat 24 the Lord is talking about, " if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The Lord is giving reference to events that will happen AFTER what is called the Great Tribulation Period. He says, "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." (v.28) The Greek word ptōma, here interpreted carcase, means just that, a dead body, carcase, corpse. That being the case then rather than "eagle" it should in fact be vulture. Neb said it clearly, a dead body is what attracts vultures. Symbolically these carrion eating birds would speak of demonics. This "dead body" gathering is something that is also worthy of investigation.

Yours in Christ

How many ressurections of the Just do you believe that there are then? I see only One in Scripture.

This gathering has nothing to do with a resurrection or rapture, it has to do with a "catching away." We see an example of this in Acts 8:39-40 where it is written, " And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord CAUGHT AWAY Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea." The gathering the Lord is speaking of in Matthew is this type of catching away.

Actually, the parousia actually does mean a general rapture when we take into context the scriptures surrounding and explaining it's happenstance.

1Co 15:23

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:24

Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1st Thessalonians indicates that it will be Christ's coming, the dead in Christ, and then us;

1Th 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them who are asleep.

1Th 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You are incorrectly apply the scripture from Acts. Phillip wasn't caught up in a Ressurection he was snatched up and caught away but went on to live. The Parousia is when we will be caught up in a the general Ressurection of the Saint's of God, the Just, and swept awat to be alway with the Lord.

There is another general ressurection spoken of in Revelation. There are two ressurections, only one is of the Just in Christ.

Phillip was not caught up in the Parousia.

peace,

Dave

[sdktlk]

Also

Matthew 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Same thing - different version (Matthew's versus Luke's).

I didn't relate that verse to the first vision. I'm going to think and pray about that, might be relating to that verse. I've heard the reason why vulture wasn't added was because it was considered a curse word around that time but not sure. Thanks for reminding me of that.

It seems the ancient words didn't distinguish the two birds very well. One has to read the context.

Eagles don't gather around carcasses! One might, but not a group.

This is not about the visions but since the conversation seemed to gravitate to Mat 24 & Luk 17 I'll add a little here. In the context of Luke 17 the Lord is talking about "one being taken and the other left." When the disciples asked, "Where Lord?" Jesus said, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." (v.37) The Greek word sōma, here interpreted "the body," means exactly that, the body (as a sound whole.) This is about the saints being taken to a place where the Body of Christ is completely assembled as a sound whole. It is clearly not a rapture for we see that these one's do have an opportunity to turn back. This will not be so in "the twinkling of an eye" event we about read in 1Cor 15:52, for here the disciples are exhorted to "remember Lot's wife." This gathering would be something worthy of investigation.

In the context of Mat 24 the Lord is talking about, " if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The Lord is giving reference to events that will happen AFTER what is called the Great Tribulation Period. He says, "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." (v.28) The Greek word ptōma, here interpreted carcase, means just that, a dead body, carcase, corpse. That being the case then rather than "eagle" it should in fact be vulture. Neb said it clearly, a dead body is what attracts vultures. Symbolically these carrion eating birds would speak of demonics. This "dead body" gathering is something that is also worthy of investigation.

Yours in Christ

How many ressurections of the Just do you believe that there are then? I see only One in Scripture.

This gathering has nothing to do with a resurrection or rapture, it has to do with a "catching away." We see an example of this in Acts 8:39-40 where it is written, " And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord CAUGHT AWAY Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea." The gathering the Lord is speaking of in Matthew is this type of catching away.

Actually, the parousia actually does mean a general rapture when we take into context the scriptures surrounding and explaining it's happenstance.

1Co 15:23

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:24

Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1st Thessalonians indicates that it will be Christ's coming, the dead in Christ, and then us;

1Th 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them who are asleep.

1Th 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You are incorrectly apply the scripture from Acts. Phillip wasn't caught up in a Ressurection he was snatched up and caught away but went on to live. The Parousia is when we will be caught up in a the general Ressurection of the Saint's of God, the Just, and swept awat to be alway with the Lord.

There is another general ressurection spoken of in Revelation. There are two ressurections, only one is of the Just in Christ.

Phillip was not caught up in the Parousia.

peace,

Dave

You loose me brother. The discussion at hand has absolutely nothing to do with the "rapture" or parousia, it had turned to a discussion of what is spoken of in Luke 17 and Matthew 24. Those two passages of Scripture have nothing to do with resurrection or rapture ????

[nebula]

It seems the ancient words didn't distinguish the two birds very well. One has to read the context.

Eagles don't gather around carcasses! One might, but not a group.

This is not about the visions but since the conversation seemed to gravitate to Mat 24 & Luk 17 I'll add a little here. In the context of Luke 17 the Lord is talking about "one being taken and the other left." When the disciples asked, "Where Lord?" Jesus said, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." (v.37) The Greek word sōma, here interpreted "the body," means exactly that, the body (as a sound whole.) This is about the saints being taken to a place where the Body of Christ is completely assembled as a sound whole. It is clearly not a rapture for we see that these one's do have an opportunity to turn back. This will not be so in "the twinkling of an eye" event we about read in 1Cor 15:52, for here the disciples are exhorted to "remember Lot's wife." This gathering would be something worthy of investigation.

In the context of Mat 24 the Lord is talking about, " if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The Lord is giving reference to events that will happen AFTER what is called the Great Tribulation Period. He says, "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." (v.28) The Greek word ptōma, here interpreted carcase, means just that, a dead body, carcase, corpse. That being the case then rather than "eagle" it should in fact be vulture. Neb said it clearly, a dead body is what attracts vultures. Symbolically these carrion eating birds would speak of demonics. This "dead body" gathering is something that is also worthy of investigation.

I do not believe the "one will be taken" refers to being taken to safety (raptured).

I believe the expression "to be taken" refers to those taken with the destruction. (i.e. Noah and his family were saved, the rest of the world was taken).

The taking referred to in Matthew is with respect to those one's being taken to a gathering where a healthy, wholesome body is. It cannot possibly be referring to the "wicked" being taken to a place of wholeness. Matthew is a gathering of the saints. Luke, on the other hand, refers to something entirely different, which takes place after the great tribulation.

All right, let us look at the contexts.

In Matthew 24, the "one taken and the other left" is spoken in conjunction with the Great Flood -

37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away ; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 "Then there will be two men in the field ; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill ; one will be taken and one will be left.

In the case of the days of Noah, the ones "taken" were the ones that perished, so why should we interpret "taken" with the coming of the Son of Man as being raptured?

The mention of the gathering is in conjunction with false Christs. It seems the "corpse" is the false Christ.

24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 "Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 "Wherever * the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

In Luke - the Greek sōma simply means "body," it does not distinguish its state with regards to being alive or dead.

Again, read the context:

28 "It was the same as happened in the days of Lot : they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building ; 29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. 31 "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back *. 32 "Remember Lot's wife. 33 "Whoever * seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever * loses his life will preserve it. 34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed ; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. 36 ["Two men will be in the field ; one will be taken and the other will be left."] 37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord ?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

He is comparing the day the Son of Man is revealed with the days of Lot and those who were lost. He does not focus on Lot and the two daughters who were saved by fleeing, He is referring to those taken to destruction. Thus it makes more sense to tie in "taken" with those who perish rather than those who are saved.

[sdktlk]

Seeing as how we again seem to be far apart here, let me pose a few things that kind of puzzle me.

1) Do we not preach and teach that Jesus can come at any moment, or at least very soon? If that is the case how can we then reconcile the fact that there are many events that seemingly have to take place before that event. Rebuilt Temple, revealing of the man of sin, one world secular government, this placing of the abomination that desolates, mark of the beast, etc. By these things, the way they are portrayed, it does not seem that we are anywhere near to the coming of the Lord.

2) By the Scriptures set forth by the Lord in Matthew 24 and Luke 17 it appears that in all of this those who are not saved are totally unaware of pending doom. They are eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage right up, and until they are "taken away." But even now a great lot of the world, that is the lost, are familiar with all the things which are portrayed as happening in the end of days by the Church. They even make movies, documentaries, and the like which lay out these things in some manner or another. Therefore, it would appear that if the scenario is as it's painted and it does begin to come to pass that even the lost would say, "Wow, what's up with that?" I mean even the lost would have to recognize these things and wake up wouldn't it seem?

For quite sometime this had been bothersome to me so I went before the Lord and said, "Lord what about that?" Over the last twenty years the Lord has shown me that in fact, "the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field." (Gen 3:1) Neb, you pointed out that at the time of the Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ there were only TWO people who saw the truth. We can see that for then but we cannot imagine that it could be happening yet again?

[nebula]

Seeing as how we again seem to be far apart here, let me pose a few things that kind of puzzle me.

1) Do we not preach and teach that Jesus can come at any moment, or at least very soon? If that is the case how can we then reconcile the fact that there are many events that seemingly have to take place before that event. Rebuilt Temple, revealing of the man of sin, one world secular government, this placing of the abomination that desolates, mark of the beast, etc. By these things, the way they are portrayed, it does not seem that we are anywhere near to the coming of the Lord.

Well, Jesus said He was coming back "soon" about 2000 years ago. So, . . . .

(Some of us have a running joke on that!)

2) By the Scriptures set forth by the Lord in Matthew 24 and Luke 17 it appears that in all of this those who are not saved are totally unaware of pending doom. They are eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage right up, and until they are "taken away." But even now a great lot of the world, that is the lost, are familiar with all the things which are portrayed as happening in the end of days by the Church. They even make movies, documentaries, and the like which lay out these things in some manner or another. Therefore, it would appear that if the scenario is as it's painted and it does begin to come to pass that even the lost would say, "Wow, what's up with that?" I mean even the lost would have to recognize these things and wake up wouldn't it seem?

2 Peter 3

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming ? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

(emphasis mine)

For quite sometime this had been bothersome to me so I went before the Lord and said, "Lord what about that?" Over the last twenty years the Lord has shown me that in fact, "the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field." (Gen 3:1) Neb, you pointed out that at the time of the Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ there were only TWO people who saw the truth. We can see that for then but we cannot imagine that it could be happening yet again?

Well, I would hope more than two are genuinely hearing from the Lord. But my inkling is to believe that He doesn't give such revelation to everyone, nor will He give the revelation before it is needed. I truly believe He is more interested in us being found faithful than having the perfect understanding of how the prophecies are fulfilled in the natural.

A good part of my bias comes from about 35 years of mish-mash on this. And some of that involves people exalting themselves as having some "in" on God with this, or called to be a fulfillment of prophecy, and crazy stuff like that. So, the bigger the deal someone makes of having it all figured out and pushing their interpretation of it and the like, the more inclined I am to be dis-persuaded.

[mizzdy]

Seeing as how we again seem to be far apart here, let me pose a few things that kind of puzzle me.

1) Do we not preach and teach that Jesus can come at any moment, or at least very soon? If that is the case how can we then reconcile the fact that there are many events that seemingly have to take place before that event. Rebuilt Temple, revealing of the man of sin, one world secular government, this placing of the abomination that desolates, mark of the beast, etc. By these things, the way they are portrayed, it does not seem that we are anywhere near to the coming of the Lord.

2) By the Scriptures set forth by the Lord in Matthew 24 and Luke 17 it appears that in all of this those who are not saved are totally unaware of pending doom. They are eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage right up, and until they are "taken away." But even now a great lot of the world, that is the lost, are familiar with all the things which are portrayed as happening in the end of days by the Church. They even make movies, documentaries, and the like which lay out these things in some manner or another. Therefore, it would appear that if the scenario is as it's painted and it does begin to come to pass that even the lost would say, "Wow, what's up with that?" I mean even the lost would have to recognize these things and wake up wouldn't it seem?

For quite sometime this had been bothersome to me so I went before the Lord and said, "Lord what about that?" Over the last twenty years the Lord has shown me that in fact, "the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field." (Gen 3:1) Neb, you pointed out that at the time of the Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ there were only TWO people who saw the truth. We can see that for then but we cannot imagine that it could be happening yet again?

Matt 24:40 does have everything to do with the gathering of the tares, they are taken and burnt up giving fulfillment to the prophecy in Isa. 39 I think where the birds, eagles, are invited to the sacrifice. One taken is the evil ones the one left is the righteous one who will be gathered when God sends His angel to gather the 'wheat' and bring them to the Messiah. My thinking is not based in movies or worldly ideals its a plain reading of the scriptures and the guideance of the Spirit.

God says He reveals the end from the beginning so we can see whats going to play out before His return. No none know the day or the hour but we do know when or what time of the year He will come, we don't know the day nor the hour because it is all about the signs He left for us, the sightings of the moon that correspondes to His fall Feast. I see plenty of time to do what must come about, first Judah came back to the land in apostate, Ephraim or Gods scattered are waking to their Messiah, theres plenty of oppurtunity to rebuild that temple and it won't take 40 years to do this time, things are coming together faster than any time in history. Its up to individuals to hear Him its up to each one of us to follow and serve Him, those tares that will be taken most assuredly know that He will be coming soon, just as all the prophets warned the Israelites before hand God promises that the gospel, the truth, will be all over the lands and none will have an excuse.

[irishcowboy]

wow, it has been a long time since I ahve been on here....

Most the time, if I have a vision, I also get the understanding of it at the same time.... not many times do i have to seek an answer for it.

the best thing to di is not to read too much into the visions nd dreams....