Justin Martyr AD151- re sunday fellowship

[mizzdy]

You can read all the extra readings you want the bible says the Sabbath is the seventh day we are to rest on the Sabbath, you can fellowship any day of the week all day and night praise God but to label Sunday as the Lords Day or the Sabbath is unbiblical. The apostles kept following in Yeshuas sandals, keeping the Sabbath and the Feasts. The Lords day is the day of wrath, the Day Yeshua returns and that can be found in any study Zeph is a good place to read about what happens on the Day of the Lord. It seems for some reason this is a big topic with you JCISGD, if you would like to pm me I could send you some studies on this.

Mizz

hi Mizzdy, its a big topic because many today are being misled about it or are in ignorance of the facts. We are called to defend the faith and disprove error.

Can you explain how the bible verses i gave are "extra readings"? Please look up the definition of the word "sabbath", it means a seventh part and does not mean a particular day. God rested on the "seventh" day and called it a sabbath for man, can you show me where He named it "sabbath" as opposed to "seventh"?

Im not getting into a sabbath debate, my intention is to show the facts according to scripture that the Apostles and disciples met for fellowship on the first day. Wether they also kept the seventh is another topic.

Wether the Lords Day is also His return and a day of wrath, does not take away from the scriptures provided. Good bible study uses the clear verses to understand the unclear and not the other way around which leads to much error and spiritualising.

I am interested in any study, if you pm it to me i will consider it without predjudice thanks.

God bless.

The extra reading I was refering to was the 'early church father' stuff. I know exactly what Sabbath means and it does refer to a specific day, I would think that even with all the calendar changes etc there is a group of people that did seem to be able to hold onto history that included the days of the week and when the seventh day comes around on the calendar. Sabbath doesn't really mean seven but intermission, the roots of Sabbath are:

H7673

שׁבת

shâbath

shaw-bath'

A primitive root; to repose, that is, desist from exertion; used in many implied relations (causatively, figuratively or specifically): - (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep (sabbath), suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.

So when God said to remember the Sabbath and rest from all things work etc. He did mean to give us one day which is at the end of each week as He did as an example, although being God He doesn't need rest nor does His 'work' stop but like Yeshua who also gave us examples on what we are to do.

Others have already given you examples of who the apostles were teaching on the Sabbath that went into the next day or rather the day turned to the next day at sundown. I will get you those links soon.

Mizz

[JCISGD]

Even if i admit the possibility? of Jesus rising on the seventh day, it still poses further problems.

So now you would be saying the Jewish Sabbath Day is now called the Lords Day, yet they are two distinct days.

The scriptures say that it was nearing dawn AFTER the sabbath. AFTER means it had finished, and this only leaves the conclusion that it was now the FIRST day of the week, and that at that time of year DAWN was sometime after the first hour.

I cant remember where, but i just read somewhere that the Jewish day is not 24 hrs but 12, and Jesus himself said "are there not 12 hrs in a day?"

If this is so that makes the sabbath day finish at 6pm and then the seventh night starts and finishes 6am.

The intention of this post is to show that the churches following imediatley after the Apostles did keep the first day as the Lords Day and the day they met for intimate fellowship away from Jewish synagogues. What you do with that imformation is up to you, I have no dispute with any in reguard to their practice, apart from those who insist the Lords Day =the seventh.

[JCISGD]

You can read all the extra readings you want the bible says the Sabbath is the seventh day we are to rest on the Sabbath, you can fellowship any day of the week all day and night praise God but to label Sunday as the Lords Day or the Sabbath is unbiblical. The apostles kept following in Yeshuas sandals, keeping the Sabbath and the Feasts. The Lords day is the day of wrath, the Day Yeshua returns and that can be found in any study Zeph is a good place to read about what happens on the Day of the Lord. It seems for some reason this is a big topic with you JCISGD, if you would like to pm me I could send you some studies on this.

Mizz

hi Mizzdy, its a big topic because many today are being misled about it or are in ignorance of the facts. We are called to defend the faith and disprove error.

Can you explain how the bible verses i gave are "extra readings"? Please look up the definition of the word "sabbath", it means a seventh part and does not mean a particular day. God rested on the "seventh" day and called it a sabbath for man, can you show me where He named it "sabbath" as opposed to "seventh"?

Im not getting into a sabbath debate, my intention is to show the facts according to scripture that the Apostles and disciples met for fellowship on the first day. Wether they also kept the seventh is another topic.

Wether the Lords Day is also His return and a day of wrath, does not take away from the scriptures provided. Good bible study uses the clear verses to understand the unclear and not the other way around which leads to much error and spiritualising.

I am interested in any study, if you pm it to me i will consider it without predjudice thanks.

God bless.

The extra reading I was refering to was the 'early church father' stuff. I know exactly what Sabbath means and it does refer to a specific day, I would think that even with all the calendar changes etc there is a group of people that did seem to be able to hold onto history that included the days of the week and when the seventh day comes around on the calendar. Sabbath doesn't really mean seven but intermission, the roots of Sabbath are:

H7673

שׁבת

shâbath

shaw-bath'

A primitive root; to repose, that is, desist from exertion; used in many implied relations (causatively, figuratively or specifically): - (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep (sabbath), suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.

So when God said to remember the Sabbath and rest from all things work etc. He did mean to give us one day which is at the end of each week as He did as an example, although being God He doesn't need rest nor does His 'work' stop but like Yeshua who also gave us examples on what we are to do.

Others have already given you examples of who the apostles were teaching on the Sabbath that went into the next day or rather the day turned to the next day at sundown. I will get you those links soon.

Mizz

I really need to learn how to cut and post quotes as i dislike including the unecessary bits and filling the page with repetition.

Its not disputed that the disciples did go into the synagogues, but it was to win the Jews to Christ. We know that any teaching on Christ often led to uproar and beatings, are you saying they went there for fellowship?

Im not sure where you get proof the disciples taught into the night in the synagogues?.Paul was in a private house when the meeting went late into the night and the young man fell out the window.

The "extra writings" are credible in the light that some were church leaders directly after the apostles and taught by those taught by the apostles. If you discredit them because of a little seperation of time, then all proofs put forth by your sources are all the more discredited and likely to be error?

[BlindSeeker]

Ahem...I agree with what Joe has written, but you need to realise that that whenthe shabbat/sabbath/seventh day/saturday finished at sundown, so the yom rishon/ sunday/ or more correctly first day of the week began....and the expression 'it began to dawn', is not in reference to it began to be the first day of the week, but that dawn was near on that first day/sunday.

To put it another way....sun-down marks the end of Shabbat and the beginning of the first day of the week....they both occur simultaneously, and Scripture has already said that Shabbat had ended, so naturally the first day of the week had begun, and the two Mary's went up to the tomb very early on YOM RISHON/SUNDAY.

[/quoteNo.

It was still IN the end of the Sabbath.

[JCISGD]

Ahem...I agree with what Joe has written, but you need to realise that that whenthe shabbat/sabbath/seventh day/saturday finished at sundown, so the yom rishon/ sunday/ or more correctly first day of the week began....and the expression 'it began to dawn', is not in reference to it began to be the first day of the week, but that dawn was near on that first day/sunday.

To put it another way....sun-down marks the end of Shabbat and the beginning of the first day of the week....they both occur simultaneously, and Scripture has already said that Shabbat had ended, so naturally the first day of the week had begun, and the two Mary's went up to the tomb very early on YOM RISHON/SUNDAY.

[/quoteNo.

It was still IN the end of the Sabbath.

Hi Blindseeker, im not sure what Joes position is, or if you are arguing for first day ressurrection or seventh?

I dont get what your saying. You say the seventh day finishes at sundown but 12 hrs later at sunrise is early in the first day?

Either way you say "the first day of the week had begun" and that was "Sunday". Those that argue Jesus rose on the seventh day are not able to prove this imo, and the fact that the first day became known as the Lords Day is proof that He rose on the first and not the seventh.

If anyone can quietly without predjudice read the following link and still remain in dispute, i dont know what amount of proof could ever prove them anything?

http://www.charlesfinney.com/finney/finney.php?op=125

Reguardless, blessings and see you all in heaven, seventh or first day observance.

[Fraught]

Even if i admit the possibility? of Jesus rising on the seventh day, it still poses further problems.

So now you would be saying the Jewish Sabbath Day is now called the Lords Day, yet they are two distinct days.

The scriptures say that it was nearing dawn AFTER the sabbath. AFTER means it had finished, and this only leaves the conclusion that it was now the FIRST day of the week, and that at that time of year DAWN was sometime after the first hour.

I cant remember where, but i just read somewhere that the Jewish day is not 24 hrs but 12, and Jesus himself said "are there not 12 hrs in a day?"

If this is so that makes the sabbath day finish at 6pm and then the seventh night starts and finishes 6am.

The intention of this post is to show that the churches following imediatley after the Apostles did keep the first day as the Lords Day and the day they met for intimate fellowship away from Jewish synagogues. What you do with that imformation is up to you, I have no dispute with any in reguard to their practice, apart from those who insist the Lords Day =the seventh.

so you're saying they met together for fellowship & teaching on the first day, sunday. ok. does that prove they did not still keep the 7th day sabbath ?

[JCISGD]

Even if i admit the possibility? of Jesus rising on the seventh day, it still poses further problems.

So now you would be saying the Jewish Sabbath Day is now called the Lords Day, yet they are two distinct days.

The scriptures say that it was nearing dawn AFTER the sabbath. AFTER means it had finished, and this only leaves the conclusion that it was now the FIRST day of the week, and that at that time of year DAWN was sometime after the first hour.

I cant remember where, but i just read somewhere that the Jewish day is not 24 hrs but 12, and Jesus himself said "are there not 12 hrs in a day?"

If this is so that makes the sabbath day finish at 6pm and then the seventh night starts and finishes 6am.

The intention of this post is to show that the churches following imediatley after the Apostles did keep the first day as the Lords Day and the day they met for intimate fellowship away from Jewish synagogues. What you do with that imformation is up to you, I have no dispute with any in reguard to their practice, apart from those who insist the Lords Day =the seventh.

so you're saying they met together for fellowship & teaching on the first day, sunday. ok. does that prove they did not still keep the 7th day sabbath ?

hi Fraught, im not trying to prove anything other than that they did meet for tithing and communion on the first day of the week known as the Lords Day, and that this was the custom of the early church.

It is recorded that some did go into the synagogues reguarly, but as far as i remember it also only records that it was to win the Jews to Christ.

If anyone wants to keep the seventh day i have no issue, just dont try to make a size 10 foot fit a size 7.

[Botz]

It was still IN the end of the Sabbath.

I hear what you are saying bro, and I went back and re-read your excellent post about the comings and goings to the Tomb and the timing of it all...I enjoyed it then and I enjoyed it again just now. It seems the particular thing we have a slight difference of opinion about at the moment is the word usage of Matthew 28:1 in which I see you insist on using the KJV, which is fine, but I did not find your explanation of the wording 'as it began to dawn' conclusive or completely convincing...there are two main reasons:-

1. From what I know of Jewish tradition/laws visiting a graveyard on the Shabbat is strictly forbidden, so it would seem much more likely and as far as I can see in accordance to Scripture, that the women had deliberately waited till the Shabbat had finished, and were no longer rstricted by either the length of their journey, or the object of their destination.

2. Most major translations do not emphasis the things written in quite the way you do (they may be wrong I guess) and David Stern in his translation of this verse in the Jewish New Testament writes 'After Shabbat towards dawn on Sunday...' in his commentary he concludes that the reference is definitely directed towards Sunday morning.

[mizzdy]

Even if i admit the possibility? of Jesus rising on the seventh day, it still poses further problems.

So now you would be saying the Jewish Sabbath Day is now called the Lords Day, yet they are two distinct days.

The scriptures say that it was nearing dawn AFTER the sabbath. AFTER means it had finished, and this only leaves the conclusion that it was now the FIRST day of the week, and that at that time of year DAWN was sometime after the first hour.

I cant remember where, but i just read somewhere that the Jewish day is not 24 hrs but 12, and Jesus himself said "are there not 12 hrs in a day?"

If this is so that makes the sabbath day finish at 6pm and then the seventh night starts and finishes 6am.

The intention of this post is to show that the churches following imediatley after the Apostles did keep the first day as the Lords Day and the day they met for intimate fellowship away from Jewish synagogues. What you do with that imformation is up to you, I have no dispute with any in reguard to their practice, apart from those who insist the Lords Day =the seventh.

First lets get something straight, it is not the Jewish Sabbath, God says differently they are Gods days given to us not to Judah or the Judeans which is where the term Jew came from. There are 24 hours in a day the Jews at least all the ones I know laugh when they hear that one assigned to them. The days start and end with the sun rising and setting not to hard to see that is it? Heres a good read about the Lords Day and why it is always refered to as the day He returns, the Day of Wrath, we always see John in the Spirit when talking about the Day of the Lord. Link

In Revelation 1:10 John uses what was then apparently a unique (dative) expression. However, John

[JCISGD]

It was still IN the end of the Sabbath.

I hear what you are saying bro, and I went back and re-read your excellent post about the comings and goings to the Tomb and the timing of it all...I enjoyed it then and I enjoyed it again just now. It seems the particular thing we have a slight difference of opinion about at the moment is the word usage of Matthew 28:1 in which I see you insist on using the KJV, which is fine, but I did not find your explanation of the wording 'as it began to dawn' conclusive or completely convincing...there are two main reasons:-

1. From what I know of Jewish tradition/laws visiting a graveyard on the Shabbat is strictly forbidden, so it would seem much more likely and as far as I can see in accordance to Scripture, that the women had deliberately waited till the Shabbat had finished, and were no longer rstricted by either the length of their journey, or the object of their destination.

2. Most major translations do not emphasis the things written in quite the way you do (they may be wrong I guess) and David Stern in his translation of this verse in the Jewish New Testament writes 'After Shabbat towards dawn on Sunday...' in his commentary he concludes that the reference is definitely directed towards Sunday morning.

hi Botz, i hadnt considered other translations, thats a fair comment. I agree that they would not have violated the shabbat, and this is further proof that it was into the first day before they began their journey to the tomb. The word "dawn" is not a specific hour and depending on the season could be after the begining of the first hr, and seems to be so as the verse more clearly says it was "after" the sabbath. The clear rules over the unclear.

But the proof of anything is in all the facts, and the actual practice of the early church confirms that the first day is the Lords Day and the day they met as a church.

Seventh Day Aventists are dishonest in that they accuse Constantine of changing the day, but even those who were disciples of John met on the first day and did call it the Lords Day.(google "early church fathers) Constantine did make it a day of rest as a law within his duristriction, but that is not the same as being the originator of its observance.

I hope ive answered your questions, apologies if ive misunderstood what your position? Im certainly no authority or scholar.