Immunization

[Guest Gladiator4God]

I wasnt meaning not to have your childerns shots given to them, i was simply meaning be careful do some checking and if possible on the MMR shot have them done seperatly instead of all at once

[Catsmeow]

I have quite a dilemmea. I am a new father, as some of you may know, and I have been researching various vaccines and what goes into them. Some of them are downright scary. Some of the ones required by state law here in MD use aborted fetal tissue in some wya shape or form. I am very not cool with that, what to do?

In Christ

Truseek

If it involves the use of aborted fetuses, just my opinion, bruh...but I'd do anything I had to to avoid using it. Just that simple.

Avoiding it might not be simple. .....but I'd do whatever it took to avoid it.

*(Kinda like taking the 'mark')

[truseek]

My son has just started Kindergarten (age 5). He has had all of his shorts, and he's as healthy as can be.

Sure, there's always a risk. Just like there's a risk to getting up in the morning and crosing the street. But some risks are worth it.

Its not so much her health I am concerned about(though that is a concern), but the fact that many vaccines required by state law use aborted tissue in some way shape or form. Using a byproduct of abortions is, in my book, as good as condoning it. also, it woyld seem to me from the research I am doing that it is not neccessarily a short term health risk, but a long term one.

However, it seems that I will likely be able to get religious exemption from these, and if not we will definitely homeschool, as that will circumvent the requirement, though it is an option we are considering regardless.

In Christ

Truseek

[truseek]

I do not care for them, for I believe that they are a detriment to the immunization system.....

as an infant, I was given a small pox vaxine.... didnt take.... meaning my body killed it before it was able to scab or scar....

we were getting ready to move to england, got a second one ( at about 1 year old ) it did not take either.....

after being in england for a spell, there was an outbreak, ours was over a specified time frame, so we all got small pox vax...... again, mine did not take....

so the doc gave me another one, and it didnt take, and then another..... still didnt take.... the doc said I had a natural immunity....

later on, when i joined the service, it was noticed I did not have a scar for the small pox vax.... so i got another one, still after all them small pox vax, there should be a scar... but no one will listen to me when I tell them i have had 6 of them and not a single itty bitty scar..... they do not believe me when I say i have had it 6 times....... documented.....

now....

while in the military, the made receiving the flu shot manditory..... and well, every time i received the flu shot, i got the flu with in 3 days....... yep, every time, with out fail...... they would say i would have had it worse if i had not received the shot.... that is hog wash... .for three years running, i skated out of getting it, and never got the flu, even with my roommates or shipmates getting the flu.... even when others were on bed rest with the flu, that i had close personal contact with...

I get that shot, and I get the flu..... i have been out of the service now for over 10 years, and have yet to get the flu.... even when others around me get it.... and i have not had a single flu vax since......

just those two reasons, i refuse to take any vax for junk that will come and go... even the pnumonia shot... forget it..... not even for the Hep shot.... no way....

drugs of all sorts, i try to stay completely away.... let the Body that God created do its job..... i do not feel we should interfer with Gods work.....

look at some of the side effects of these so called miricle drugs...... the side effects for most of the ones they are advertising are worse then the original problem......

**** got gas???? take these........ oh by the way, you have a strong chance of having a heart attack or stroking out if you take these.... but they will clear up the gas problem.... ****

****Got a runny nose??? you need this..... it will dry up that runny nose in two weeks flat..... unless it is alergy related then this drug will cause brain damage...... *****

sound like i am exagerating? well, maybe a bit, but listen to the comercials.... listen to the side effects..... when you get a script from the pharm. do you ever read the side effects???

I got checked out for Tenitis ( ringing of the ears... ) doc gave me a script that he said should help some..... three days later I am doubled over at work, felt like some one had just run me thru with a double bladed sword, and then twisted it... ( no joke, I thought I was dying.... ) called the doc to find out what to do, and never got a single call back, called three times....... ( by the way, I threw the meds in the stool and flushed them..... ) and that side effect was not even listed as a possible problem..... sheeeeeesh....... I read the info sheet that came with them....

i personally, believe that the reason that there is these so called laws for the vaccines, is that some one in government is getting kick backs from the drug companies..... that is my personal opinion...

mike

I wholeheartedly agree here.

Here is an article you may be interested in reading:

"Body Ritual Among the Nacerima" by Horace Miner

The anthropologist has become so familiar with the diversity of ways in which different people behave in similar situations that he is not apt to be surprised by even the most exotic customs. In fact, if all of the logically possible combinations of behavior have not been found somewhere in the world, he is apt to suspect that they must be present in some yet undescribed tribe. The point has, in fact, been expressed with respect to clan organization by Murdock.[2] In this light, the magical beliefs and practices of the Nacirema present such unusual aspects that it seems desirable to describe them as an example of the extremes to which human behavior can go.

Professor Linton [3] first brought the ritual of the Nacirema to the attention of anthropologists twenty years ago, but the culture of this people is still very poorly understood. They are a North American group living in the territory between the Canadian Cree, the Yaqui and Tarahumare of Mexico, and the Carib and Arawak of the Antilles. Little is known of their origin, although tradition states that they came from the east....

Nacirema culture is characterized by a highly developed market economy which has evolved in a rich natural habitat. While much of the people's time is devoted to economic pursuits, a large part of the fruits of these labors and a considerable portion of the day are spent in ritual activity. The focus of this activity is the human body, the appearance and health of which loom as a dominant concern in the ethos of the people. While such a concern is certainly not unusual, its ceremonial aspects and associated philosophy are unique.

The fundamental belief underlying the whole system appears to be that the human body is ugly and that its natural tendency is to debility and disease. Incarcerated in such a body, man's only hope is to avert these characteristics through the use of ritual and ceremony. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this purpose. The more powerful individuals in the society have several shrines in their houses and, in fact, the opulence of a house is often referred to in terms of the number of such ritual centers it possesses. Most houses are of wattle and daub construction, but the shrine rooms of the more wealthy are walled with stone. Poorer families imitate the rich by applying pottery plaques to their shrine walls.

While each family has at least one such shrine, the rituals associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and secret. The rites are normally only discussed with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries. I was able, however, to establish sufficient rapport with the natives to examine these shrines and to have the rituals described to me.

The focal point of the shrine is a box or chest which is built into the wall. In this chest are kept the many charms and magical potions without which no native believes he could live. These preparations are secured from a variety of specialized practitioners. The most powerful of these are the medicine men, whose assistance must be rewarded with substantial gifts. However, the medicine men do not provide the curative potions for their clients, but decide what the ingredients should be and then write them down in an ancient and secret language. This writing is understood only by the medicine men and by the herbalists who, for another gift, provide the required charm.

The charm is not disposed of after it has served its purpose, but is placed in the charmbox of the household shrine. As these magical materials are specific for certain ills, and the real or imagined maladies of the people are many, the charm-box is usually full to overflowing. The magical packets are so numerous that people forget what their purposes were and fear to use them again. While the natives are very vague on this point, we can only assume that the idea in retaining all the old magical materials is that their presence in the charm-box, before which the body rituals are conducted, will in some way protect the worshiper.

Beneath the charm-box is a small font. Each day every member of the family, in succession, enters the shrine room, bows his head before the charm-box, mingles different sorts of holy water in the font, and proceeds with a brief rite of ablution.[4] The holy waters are secured from the Water Temple of the community, where the priests conduct elaborate ceremonies to make the liquid ritually pure.

In the hierarchy of magical practitioners, and below the medicine men in prestige, are specialists whose designation is best translated as "holy-mouth-men." The Nacirema have an almost pathological horror of and fascination with the mouth, the condition of which is believed to have a supernatural influence on all social relationships. Were it not for the rituals of the mouth, they believe that their teeth would fall out, their gums bleed, their jaws shrink, their friends desert them, and their lovers reject them. They also believe that a strong relationship exists between oral and moral characteristics. For example, there is a ritual ablution of the mouth for children which is supposed to improve their moral fiber.

The daily body ritual performed by everyone includes a mouth-rite. Despite the fact that these people are so punctilious [5] about care of the mouth, this rite involves a practice which strikes the uninitiated stranger as revolting. It was reported to me that the ritual consists of inserting a small bundle of hog hairs into the mouth, along with certain magical powders, and then moving the bundle in a highly formalized series of gestures.[6]

In addition to the private mouth-rite, the people seek out a holy-mouth-man once or twice a year. These practitioners have an impressive set of paraphernalia, consisting of a variety of augers, awls, probes, and prods. The use of these items in the exorcism of the evils of the mouth involves almost unbelievable ritual torture of the client. The holy-mouth-man opens the client's mouth and, using the above mentioned tools, enlarges any holes which decay may have created in the teeth. Magical materials are put into these holes. If there are no naturally occurring holes in the teeth, large sections of one or more teeth are gouged out so that the supernatural substance can be applied. In the client's view, the purpose of these ministrations [7] is to arrest decay and to draw friends. The extremely sacred and traditional character of the rite is evident in the fact that the natives return to the holy-mouth-men year after year, despite the fact that their teeth continue to decay.

It is to be hoped that, when a thorough study of the Nacirema is made, there will be careful inquiry into the personality structure of these people. One has but to watch the gleam in the eye of a holy-mouth-man, as he jabs an awl into an exposed nerve, to suspect that a certain amount of sadism is involved. If this can be established, a very interesting pattern emerges, for most of the population shows definite masochistic tendencies. It was to these that Professor Linton referred in discussing a distinctive part of the daily body ritual which is performed only by men. This part of the rite includes scraping and lacerating the surface of the face with a sharp instrument. Special women's rites are performed only four times during each lunar month, but what they lack in frequency is made up in barbarity. As part of this ceremony, women bake their heads in small ovens for about an hour. The theoretically interesting point is that what seems to be a preponderantly masochistic people have developed sadistic specialists.

The medicine men have an imposing temple, or latipso, in every community of any size. The more elaborate ceremonies required to treat very sick patients can only be performed at this temple. These ceremonies involve not only the thaumaturge [8] but a permanent group of vestal maidens who move sedately about the temple chambers in distinctive costume and headdress.

The latipso ceremonies are so harsh that it is phenomenal that a fair proportion of the really sick natives who enter the temple ever recover. Small children whose indoctrination is still incomplete have been known to resist attempts to take them to the temple because "that is where you go to die." Despite this fact, sick adults are not only willing but eager to undergo the protracted ritual purification, if they can afford to do so. No matter how ill the supplicant or how grave the emergency, the guardians of many temples will not admit a client if he cannot give a rich gift to the custodian. Even after one has gained and survived the ceremonies, the guardians will not permit the neophyte to leave until he makes still another gift.

The supplicant entering the temple is first stripped of all his or her clothes. In everyday life the Nacirema avoids exposure of his body and its natural functions. Bathing and excretory acts are performed only in the secrecy of the household shrine, where they are ritualized as part of the body-rites. Psychological shock results from the fact that body secrecy is suddenly lost upon entry into the latipso. A man, whose own wife has never seen him in an excretory act, suddenly finds himself naked and assisted by a vestal maiden while he performs his natural functions into a sacred vessel. This sort of ceremonial treatment is necessitated by the fact that the excreta are used by a diviner to ascertain the course and nature of the client's sickness. Female clients, on the other hand, find their naked bodies are subjected to the scrutiny, manipulation and prodding of the medicine men.

Few supplicants in the temple are well enough to do anything but lie on their hard beds. The daily ceremonies, like the rites of the holy-mouth-men, involve discomfort and torture. With ritual precision, the vestals awaken their miserable charges each dawn and roll them about on their beds of pain while performing ablutions, in the formal movements of which the maidens are highly trained. At other times they insert magic wands in the supplicant's mouth or force him to eat substances which are supposed to be healing. From time to time the medicine men come to their clients and jab magically treated needles into their flesh. The fact that these temple ceremonies may not cure, and may even kill the neophyte, in no way decreases the people's faith in the medicine men.

There remains one other kind of practitioner, known as a "listener." This witchdoctor has the power to exorcise the devils that lodge in the heads of people who have been bewitched. The Nacirema believe that parents bewitch their own children. Mothers are particularly suspected of putting a curse on children while teaching them the secret body rituals. The counter-magic of the witchdoctor is unusual in its lack of ritual. The patient simply tells the "listener" all his troubles and fears, beginning with the earliest difficulties he can remember. The memory displayed by the Nacirema in these exorcism sessions is truly remarkable. It is not uncommon for the patient to bemoan the rejection he felt upon being weaned as a babe, and a few individuals even see their troubles going back to the traumatic effects of their own birth.

In conclusion, mention must be made of certain practices which have their base in native esthetics but which depend upon the pervasive aversion to the natural body and its functions. There are ritual fasts to make fat people thin and ceremonial feasts to make thin people fat. Still other rites are used to make women's breasts larger if they are small, and smaller if they are large. General dissatisfaction with breast shape is symbolized in the fact that the ideal form is virtually outside the range of human variation. A few women afflicted with almost inhuman hyper-mammary development are so idolized that they make a handsome living by simply going from village to village and permitting the natives to stare at them for a fee.

Reference has already been made to the fact that excretory functions are ritualized, routinized, and relegated to secrecy. Natural reproductive functions are similarly distorted. Intercourse is taboo as a topic and scheduled as an act. Efforts are made to avoid pregnancy by the use of magical materials or by limiting intercourse to certain phases of the moon. Conception is actually very infrequent. When pregnant, women dress so as to hide their condition. Parturition takes place in secret, without friends or relatives to assist, and the majority of women do not nurse their infants.

Our review of the ritual life of the Nacirema has certainly shown them to be a magic-ridden people. It is hard to understand how they have managed to exist so long under the burdens which they have imposed upon themselves. But even such exotic customs as these take on real meaning when they are viewed with the insight provided by Malinowski [9] when he wrote:

Looking from far and above, from our high places of safety in the developed civilization, it is easy to see all the crudity and irrelevance of magic. But without its power and guidance early man could not have mastered his practical difficulties as he has done, nor could man have advanced to the higher stages of civilization.[10]

[ayin jade]

Should I respond...or walk away?

New Vaccines Dont Contain Fetus Cells

From this site.

The rubella vaccine was developed from a fetus obtained from a single termination of pregnancy carried out on medical grounds in 1966. The rubella virus used in the vaccine was isolated from a different fetus terminated in the 1960s in the United States because the fetus had congenital rubella. No further fetal material has ever been used for rubella vaccine manufacture.

The rigorous purification process during manufacture removes all trace of the cells in which the vaccine was grown and so the rubella vaccine contains no human fetal tissue.

There is no question of any new fetal tissue being used in making this vaccine, or of those involved in the termination profiting in any way.

If you want or dont want vaccines, that is your choice. You should remember that epidemics still happen, and the medical community is still concerned. Something like the Spanish Influenza of 1918 is still a real possibility. That outbreak killed, at conservative estimates, 22 million people worldwide. Polio was a dreaded disease worldwide as was smallpox, until recently.

Gladiator, if that is what happened to your son, I am sorry. Sadly, in rare cases, things like that happen. However, without vaccines, it is more likely that far more children would have been lost to these diseases. Everyone should please make decisions based on accurate information.

[Guest smallfry]

My husband and I have 4 children none of which are immunized for anything. We homeschool and take flack from our families for both things but what it comes down to is what you believe. God will meet you where you're at unless He tells you to do it don't!! I don't put my kids life at risk for getting the diseases by putting the immunizations into their system because I feel like that would be tempting God or opening a door for the devil. However there are some all natural immunizations now approved by the FDA that don't have mercury or aborted fetal tissues in them. If you like I could hunt up the info for you.But my advice is to just trust God.....

[larryt]

Some thoughts on immunization.

All sicknesses are the result of sin. There was no sickness nor death till sin entered the world.

The premiss of imunization is that you give the body a weakened form of the disease in hopes that the body will be able to fight it off and ward off any future disease.

Spiritually speaking it would be like giving the soul a little sin so that big sins would not affect it.

Worldly speaking imunization sounds OK.

Some questions that arrises is:

Do we really believe that ALL THINGS happen for our good?

Why are some of us trying so hard to stay here?

LT

[truseek]

Should I respond...or walk away?

New Vaccines Dont Contain Fetus Cells

From this site.

The rubella vaccine was developed from a fetus obtained from a single termination of pregnancy carried out on medical grounds in 1966. The rubella virus used in the vaccine was isolated from a different fetus terminated in the 1960s in the United States because the fetus had congenital rubella. No further fetal material has ever been used for rubella vaccine manufacture.

The rigorous purification process during manufacture removes all trace of the cells in which the vaccine was grown and so the rubella vaccine contains no human fetal tissue.

There is no question of any new fetal tissue being used in making this vaccine, or of those involved in the termination profiting in any way.

If you want or dont want vaccines, that is your choice. You should remember that epidemics still happen, and the medical community is still concerned. Something like the Spanish Influenza of 1918 is still a real possibility. That outbreak killed, at conservative estimates, 22 million people worldwide. Polio was a dreaded disease worldwide as was smallpox, until recently.

Gladiator, if that is what happened to your son, I am sorry. Sadly, in rare cases, things like that happen. However, without vaccines, it is more likely that far more  children would have been lost to these diseases. Everyone should please make decisions based on accurate information.

Thanks for the info. My concern is that Varivax (chicken pox), Havrix (hep-A), Vaqta (hep-A), Twinrix (hep-A/hep-B), Poliovax (polio), Imovax (rabies), Meruvax II (rubella), MR-VAX (measles/rubella), Biavax II (mumps/rubella), and MMR II (measles/mumps/rubella) all used aborted tissue, I am still waiting for our medical provider to get back with us regarding the availability of pro-life alternatives, as I do not wish to use these.

There, is, of course the faith issue, as well as the issue of other potentially harmful substances being introduced into my daughter's system.

I think there is a very delicate balance between using what God has given us insofar as technology, and attempting to play God or prolong the inevitable. I am not sure just where this line can be drawn, as I had never really considered it until I had a child, I am certain more moral dilemmas such as this will arise as she matures and we are faced with more decision with regard to her development. I pray that the Lord will guide us in making a decision that is not only in her best interest, but which is also in accordance with His will.

Anyone read that article by the way? It's one of my favorite social commentaries.

In Christ

Truseek

[Adstar]

I have quite a dilemmea. I am a new father, as some of you may know, and I have been researching various vaccines and what goes into them. Some of them are downright scary. Some of the ones required by state law here in MD use aborted fetal tissue in some wya shape or form.  I am very not cool with that, what to do?

In Christ

Truseek

If it involves the use of aborted fetuses, just my opinion, bruh...but I'd do anything I had to to avoid using it. Just that simple.

Avoiding it might not be simple. .....but I'd do whatever it took to avoid it.

*(Kinda like taking the 'mark')

I will second that

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[other one]

I don't mean to support these vaccinations, but I do remember these diseases messing up a few people when I was young and we didn't have them all.

Rubella can do some really bad things to a young person and I still remember several of my cousins when they had the whooping cough. I was too young to remember, but my mom thought I would die more than one night before I got over it.

So before we just decide they are all evil, maybe some should research what these childhood diseases did to those 10 or 20 per 10,000 people.

Make sure that the cure is truly worst than the illness. I remember polio and several of the others, and they did hurt a lot of people, and it is my understanding that they hurt more than the vaccinations do.

Lesser of evils is a gamble, so study up on the chances before you make a decision.

SE