Power needed b4 we begin.

[pearly163]

I have never fully understood about waiting for power from God. According to 2 Peter 1 : 3 Christians are given "Everything we need for life and godliness" at the moment of salvation.

Maybe it isn't as simple as that. Maybe I am not seeing the scripture as I should be or Maybe I am taking it out of context.

To me it seems quite straightforward.

[JCISGD]

Knee-jerk reaction? I raise points and that is what you counter with? Any time your claims are challenged or questioned you get defensive and we get the whole "not going to discuss it" mantra. You start a thread wanting to discuss something and then when someone says something you don't like, you suddenly don't want to talk about it.

Sorry Cobalt you misunderstand me and assume to know my motives, im not defensive nor unwilling to discuss anything. What i meant is the OP was to show what those used of God in the past lived by. I cant defend their position as i am not living it.

I only asked you if your response was knee-jerk? no offense intended. "Let your yes be yes and no be no."

You say you hold certain men in esteem for their doctrine, but seemed to me to come out knocking my mention of very highly respected christian men who changed their world with their preaching. If you wont allow the testimony of the very men i quote what more is their to discuss.?

If i am discussing testimony and you are sola scriptura then i think we are at an impasse?

The bible says we have to be ready to give an answer for our hope in the gospel, it doesnt say we must answer every question asked us, Jesus Himself refused answers at times. I was not meaning i wouldnt answer anyone, i just dont want to be drawn away from the intention of topic.

I apologise if i have judged you or misunderstood you.

[JCISGD]

That's a shame Arthur. Honestly, the premise of the OP is Holiness yet you won't or can't indentify it in a Biblical perspective.

I sincerely believe like yourself that Holiness is a missing ingredient in the Chruch in these latter days and surely would like to define it and discuss it. I'm not really sure why someone would start a thread about the subject and then not want to discuss it further. I believe that if we believe that it's missing and that somehow were falling short because of that fact that we ought discuss it. We definately ought define it in context and Biblically.

I believe that when God told Abraham to walk Perfect before Him that He was asking Abraham to be Holy, not Perfect.

There is a huge difference as far as I can draw from the Scriputres. I believe that men of God like Abraham, Moses, and King David were Holy. I believe that some of the men in the past centuries that you've mentioned were Holy. However, all of them are far from Perfect or even sinless and God points up that fact in their lives through the Scriptures for a reason and the chief reason is a discussion like this.

Because;

2Ti 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17

That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

It's not that I misuderstand what you are saying. I'm trying to flesh it out and be sure that we are on sound ground.

An Older Wiser Pastor that I know is alway's saying that a sermon or teaching is great stuff but if it fails to flesh it out or speak to the reality on the ground leaving the hearer wondering how to achieve it's context, it's largely useless. We can tell someone all day that they need to get Saved but the logical question after making our case will be, "How must I be Saved?" Jesus told Nicodemus, How. Peter told the Israelites, How.

I believe we do a disservice if we preach Holiness but leave it undefined. It's even led folks in this thread to be left without clarity and God is a God of order not chaos.

Peace,

Dave

While i agree with your points Dave, the OP wasnt about holiness that i can see, its about testimony of how Wesley and Whitfeild recieved Power to win souls and live victoriously in Christ.

My definition of holiness is a second work of grace that God bestows on undeserving sinners that circumcises their heart from the lure of sin.

I do not live in this state, i only believe it is on offer from God, and the great preachers throughout history testify of having recieved it. I dont wish to get sidetracked into the whole "Paul was a sinner" debate as thats been done like burnt turkey.

I just saw that quote and wanted to put it out there for others to look into, i am not qualified to defend it greatly as i am not living it.

God bless.

[traveller]

heres a quote from a article on Wesley and Whitfield. Im not into debating anything its just here for those who it might edify and point in the right direction for 2011.

They all resisted heartily the Moravian notion of "stillness," namely, that seekers must not exercise any effort, either by prayer, repentance, or good works, nor share in Holy Communion until, in Whitefield's words, they had "received the Holy Ghost in the full assurance of it," as the Apostles did at Pentecost.

http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/Alethea/Whitefield.htm

IMO this is why the church today is lacking in power and in need of revival, myself included. While most christians today say the have been baptised by the Holy Spirit, where is the "full assurance of it" as witnessed by "power from on high"

As soon as christians a born, they are mostly told to begin to pray, do good and go out and witness to all, but thats not what the old time preachers taught who WERE filled with the Holy Ghost and POWER.

Interesting thread, and a topic I've been looking into lately.

I have always been interested in the old saints, those mighty men that forged through the nations with their unique preaching and teaching skills. One of the most profound sermons that I've ever read is "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, by Jonathan Edwards.

What made Edwards and Finney and the Wesleys and Whitefield, and much more recently, Ravenhill, among others. so different. What was different then? Why did their words carry forth into even our generation? I personally think it boils down to Finneys last words in his remarkable "The Whole Counsel of God" sermon.

It is not my custom to preach farewell sermons, but when I have done my work to tear myself away, and leave the great Judge to seal up the record that shall be opened at the last day. Now all I have to say is this--the last leaf connected with my ministry, and your hearing, in this place, is now to be folded and put away amongst the files of eternity to be exhibited when you and I shall stand before God in perfect light, with no self-excusing, no false pleas, we shall all be naked, honest, and open there. And now, sinner, may I beg of God to search my own heart and prepare me for that scene and to prepare you for it too. May I be allowed this once to call heaven and earth to record upon your souls, that in my weakness, and so far as I have had ability, I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, the gospel and the law, the rule of life, and opened, so far as I have been able, the gate of mercy, and shown you the heart of Jesus. Will you accept it? I must not add another word.

they preached the whole counsel of God. They preached of man's depravity as contrasted by God's holiness and purity. They didn't mince their words when addressing sin. They told of consequences and warned of God's wrath. They didn't set up great elaborate entertainment centers to appease the people, nor did they have paid musicians and orchestras. They preached the gospel again, and again, and again, until it broke through the hardened hearts. They stood with power of conviction in their words and urgency in their messages. They never sugar coated their message and never got up behind the pulpit and said "you're ok, I'm ok, we're all ok." They didn't preach a feel good message, but one of truth and power and conviction. It takes the boldness given by the Holy Spirit to do this. Praise God for these men of valor - may we see many more like-minded souls raise the banner in the coming days.

[Matthitjah]

heres a quote from a article on Wesley and Whitfield. Im not into debating anything its just here for those who it might edify and point in the right direction for 2011.

They all resisted heartily the Moravian notion of "stillness," namely, that seekers must not exercise any effort, either by prayer, repentance, or good works, nor share in Holy Communion until, in Whitefield's words, they had "received the Holy Ghost in the full assurance of it," as the Apostles did at Pentecost.

http://truthinheart..../Whitefield.htm

IMO this is why the church today is lacking in power and in need of revival, myself included. While most christians today say the have been baptised by the Holy Spirit, where is the "full assurance of it" as witnessed by "power from on high"

As soon as christians a born, they are mostly told to begin to pray, do good and go out and witness to all, but thats not what the old time preachers taught who WERE filled with the Holy Ghost and POWER.

Interesting thread, and a topic I've been looking into lately.

I have always been interested in the old saints, those mighty men that forged through the nations with their unique preaching and teaching skills. One of the most profound sermons that I've ever read is "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, by Jonathan Edwards.

What made Edwards and Finney and the Wesleys and Whitefield, and much more recently, Ravenhill, among others. so different. What was different then? Why did their words carry forth into even our generation? I personally think it boils down to Finneys last words in his remarkable "The Whole Counsel of God" sermon.

It is not my custom to preach farewell sermons, but when I have done my work to tear myself away, and leave the great Judge to seal up the record that shall be opened at the last day. Now all I have to say is this--the last leaf connected with my ministry, and your hearing, in this place, is now to be folded and put away amongst the files of eternity to be exhibited when you and I shall stand before God in perfect light, with no self-excusing, no false pleas, we shall all be naked, honest, and open there. And now, sinner, may I beg of God to search my own heart and prepare me for that scene and to prepare you for it too. May I be allowed this once to call heaven and earth to record upon your souls, that in my weakness, and so far as I have had ability, I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, the gospel and the law, the rule of life, and opened, so far as I have been able, the gate of mercy, and shown you the heart of Jesus. Will you accept it? I must not add another word.

they preached the whole counsel of God. They preached of man's depravity as contrasted by God's holiness and purity. They didn't mince their words when addressing sin. They told of consequences and warned of God's wrath. They didn't set up great elaborate entertainment centers to appease the people, nor did they have paid musicians and orchestras. They preached the gospel again, and again, and again, until it broke through the hardened hearts. They stood with power of conviction in their words and urgency in their messages. They never sugar coated their message and never got up behind the pulpit and said "you're ok, I'm ok, we're all ok." They didn't preach a feel good message, but one of truth and power and conviction. It takes the boldness given by the Holy Spirit to do this. Praise God for these men of valor - may we see many more like-minded souls raise the banner in the coming days.

Sis, I agree.

I would then say that the Power was not in the man but in the unadulterated Gospel that the man Preached.

Peace,

Dave

[OneLight]

I would say that the power is the anointing of the Holy Spirit. We who have the Holy Spirit can step outside His will and accomplish nothing, but those who are guided by His Spirit with power from on high will accomplish much, not because of the person, but because of the will of the Father.

[Guest]

Arthur,

Perhaps it would be beneficial if you defined Holiness within a Biblical context?

Peace,

Dave

hi Dave, its not my intention to discuss holiness, i will leave that up to the individual. Theres no mention of sinlessness in that quote or my comments, im only saying that according to these men, "Power from above" is the FIRST thing a christian needs, but ive never heard that preached in any churches i know.

How we get that i will also leave to the individual to seek God about, i certainly dont have the answers.

Holy!

All the days of his separation he is holy unto the LORD. Numbers 6:8

Holy!

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. John 15:3-4

Holy!

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Acts 17:24

Maybe This Helps

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

Maybe Not

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

>>>>>()<<<<<

Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Matthitjah]

Amen Alan,

Therefore a young girl in B.C. Israel can operate in great power and give birth to the Messiah;

Lu 1:35

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.

So the question remains, "Can we work our way even by solemn silence and waiting into the Power of God?"

Those men worked in great power and manifestations based upon what God was doing in the world. They saw what He was doing and joined Him in it. Consecrating themselves to His Word.

God know's what is in the heart of a man. However, "His Eye's search to and fro throughout the earth seeking a heart that is completely His."

I believe that this has something to do with Holiness. However, Holiness has nothing to do with perfection or even with our seeking/works but rather our attitude towards the Word of God.

Ge 6:8

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

How did Noah find Grace in the sight of the Lord?

Peace,

Dave

[OneLight]

Allow me to admit my ignorance of this question: "So the question remains, "Can we work our way even by solemn silence and waiting into the Power of God?"" Can you explain what the writer is saying for me?

Thank you.

[Matthitjah]

Allow me to admit my ignorance of this question: "So the question remains, "Can we work our way even by solemn silence and waiting into the Power of God?"" Can you explain what the writer is saying for me?

Thank you.

Arthur is not taking any position. However, he has in the past.

I believe that the writer, as Arthur is taking him, is stating what Butero has stated above. Arthur has admitted that he see's Holiness as second work of Grace.

My definition of holiness is a second work of grace that God bestows on undeserving sinners that circumcises their heart from the lure of sin.

Again, from what I'm perceiving, Arthur believes that we are to work at receiving this Grace. I certainly can't circumcise my own heart. I also cannot defeat sin but I believe that I can covenant with God in that work which is complete in Christ. Although, I will not ever be sinless in this flesh and if I believe that I am I am calling God a liar and deceiving myself.

Of course, I could be completely wrong because it's just out here without explanation or clarity. We also don't have a definition of Holiness from the Biblical perspective.

Peace,

Dave