Who is Jesus?

[Guest shiloh357]

I understand this. Again, you're missing my point. You can look at this one of two ways, either the Bible is true, like you believe, and Christians are simply meant to love God and through that will act in a way that is more pleasing to him (relatively speaking). Or God is used as a placebo to motivate Christians into living their lives a certain way.

I am not missing the point. I understand what you are saying. The problem is that you provide NO reason to believe that Christians are wrong. You through "possibilities" but you provide no basis for those possibilities being plausible.

As far as the placebo argument, it simply doesn't work. If I wanted a "placebo" God is the last place I would turn to.

Just my personal experiences. The more I learnt about the Bible, the more it seemed like something humans would create.

Except the evidence says otherwise. So far, you have demonstrated a great degree of ineptitude where the Bible and the Christian faith is concerned. You cannot correctly frame what the Bible says or the claims of the Christian faith, which tells me you have no real knowledge of either. You cannot even get Islam right. Frankly, you really don't know what you are talking about and it shows in your posts.

Firstly, it just doesn't strike me as very advanced in it's thinking.

You are not really in a position to make that assertion given the absurdity and intellectual shallowness of your arguments against the Bible.

It's overly simplistic in how it views the world and how it works.

This coming from someone who thinks that the claims of the Bible can be reduced to the equivalent of claiming to spot Bigfoot.

I look at nature, and I don't see the Biblical God behind it. It definitely isn't evident to me and I feel it should be if it's true.

The greatest discoveries were made by people who researched and experimented and who really sought the truth. If anything you exhibit the opposite. You don't want to see God, in fact, you are doing everything you can to insulate yourself from having to deal seriuosly and intellectually with the evidence for the existence of God and the claims of the Bible.

One could use that same argument and apply to different other religions. Just because it had not been thought of before does not mean it has been

[Guest shiloh357]

In Hinduism, God was considered to be self-sufficient and had the capacity to overpower everything. God being a "Judge" means that he has the authority and right to punish people for not living according to his expected standards of them.

Really, which god is that?

You are a good wikipeidia scholar, but I think you really don't understand what I mean. When I say that God is self-sufficient, I mean that He does not have a point of origin. God was not created, thus He at no time was dependent on anyone or anything for His existence. God is self-sufficient in the sense that He has everything He needs within Himself. He has no need of us or of anything He has created to justify or explain His existence. He is completely and absoutely eternal, having no beginning and no end.

A deity punishing people for not living to their standards is not a unique concept to Christianity.

More accurately, it is a not a part of Christianity, so what is unique to Christianity is that God does not punish anyone for not living up to His standards. Sin has its built in consequences. When God judged nations in the Bible, it was not because they did not meet His standards, but because they would not repent. God offers man grace because man does not meet His standard. But if man rejects God's grace, he incurs God's judgment. Yet even when judgment falls, it is only after God has been reluctant and more than patient with man. It is only after man has proven that he is irretrievably wicked and will not accept the offer of grace that God, with a broken heart judges man.

Divine retribution was a major theme in Greek mythology.

But in Greek mythology, it was more or less revenge. The gods were vindictive, petty and vengeful.

In the Bible, God's judgment was not "pay back" or revenge or retaliation. It was a divine sentence that was carried out only after repeated attempts to call men to repent of their wickedness.

God as a creator is also definitely not a unique idea to Christianity. It's existed in many different religions.

But not God as THE Creatior. God as the Creator of everything is unique to the Bible. The problem with you is that you can only point to what appear to be cosmetic similarities. You don't know enough about the various religions to understand why they are at their core entirely different than Christianity and why all religions cannnot be lumped into the same pile.

Again, you really have to be careful when you use the argument that because no other religion has done it so therefore it is proof of it

[Guest shiloh357]

In Hinduism, God was considered to be self-sufficient and had the capacity to overpower everything. God being a "Judge" means that he has the authority and right to punish people for not living according to his expected standards of them.

Really, which god is that?

You are a good wikipeidia scholar, but I think you really don't understand what I mean. When I say that God is self-sufficient, I mean that He does not have a point of origin. God was not created, thus He at no time was dependent on anyone or anything for His existence. God is self-sufficient in the sense that He has everything He needs within Himself. He has no need of us or of anything He has created to justify or explain His existence. He is completely and absoutely eternal, having no beginning and no end.

A deity punishing people for not living to their standards is not a unique concept to Christianity.

More accurately, it is a not a part of Christianity, so what is unique to Christianity is that God does not punish anyone for not living up to His standards. Sin has its built in consequences. When God judged nations in the Bible, it was not because they did not meet His standards, but because they would not repent. God offers man grace because man does not meet His standard. But if man rejects God's grace, he incurs God's judgment. Yet even when judgment falls, it is only after God has been reluctant and more than patient with man. It is only after man has proven that he is irretrievably wicked and will not accept the offer of grace that God, with a broken heart judges man.

Divine retribution was a major theme in Greek mythology.

But in Greek mythology, it was more or less revenge. The gods were vindictive, petty and vengeful.

In the Bible, God's judgment was not "pay back" or revenge or retaliation. It was a divine sentence that was carried out only after repeated attempts to call men to repent of their wickedness.

God as a creator is also definitely not a unique idea to Christianity. It's existed in many different religions.

But not God as THE Creatior. God as the Creator of everything is unique to the Bible. The problem with you is that you can only point to what appear to be cosmetic similarities. You don't know enough about the various religions to understand why they are at their core entirely different than Christianity and why all religions cannnot be lumped into the same pile.

Again, you really have to be careful when you use the argument that because no other religion has done it so therefore it is proof of it

[Guest shiloh357]

Buddhism/Hinduism taught that humans should refrain from "Earthly desires."

Yeah, except that the Bible does not ask us to refrain from earthly desires. God is the author of our desires and we are compelled to enjoy our earthly desires. What the Bible commands is that we enjoy them in the way He designed them.

What we are told to avoid are sinful desires.

In Buddhism there is an 8-fold path to Nirvana where in you rid yourself of all desire, all passion to finally arrive at Nirvana. It basically calls you to surrender to the very things God hardwired into the heart and sould of humanity. It bears NO resemblance to what the Bible teaches.

Again, right. If you're wrong, then the claims that Christianity makes are not true. If you're wrong, then you aren't actually engaging in Jesus Christ. I think this concept has now been firmly established, or I hope it has.

You are not really grasping what I am saying. Christianity stands or falls on the person of Jesus. If Jesus is not raised, there is no Christianity. That is where Christiainity is once again unique. One does not have to participate in the life and person of Muhammed to be a good Muslim. One does not have to have a personal relationship with the Buddha to be a good Buddhist. One does not have to personally know Moses or Abraham to be a good Jew. But it is impossible to be a Christian and not have a personal relationship with Jesus. You have to take part in Him and abide in Him. It is a relationship and really a religion, when get down to it.

I will respond later to the rest of your responses.

[other one]

Who is Jesus? Isn't it amazing how one Jewish man transformed the world for generation to come? Have you wondered how this one man transformed the world? Something truly amazing must have happened during that time to get them to believe in Jesus and have the Way spread like wildfire. Was the resurrection the talk of the town? Was it the eyewitness accounts for all the miracles being performed? Maybe it was just supernatural work of God. What say you?

A question for the non believer.

Actually, by the time the Romans finished killing all the saints by the early fourth century, no one knew what happened. Not even the families and friends of the saints knew who these saints were. The family of Jesus didn't understand who Jesus was because sinners can't speak the truth. Since they can't speak the truth, they can't understand the truth.

Jesus and the saints didn't operate like the Roman Catholic church. All they did was preach the gospel until they were killed by the Romans. The Roman Catholic church was set up with pagan ideas that the Romans, Greeks, Persians and Babylonians worshiped in there cultures. This is where the first church buildings, altars, idols, creeds, rules and man's laws where made to deceive the followers of the saints that were killed.

If the Romans hadn't killed the saints, there wouldn't be any church buildings today. The church of the saints was in their hearts, minds and souls because they were created as the invisible Word. The same Word that was in Jesus was in the saints and the prophets and the Word can't be killed.

I don't think I would agree with that.

[other one]

Who is Jesus? Isn't it amazing how one Jewish man transformed the world for generation to come? Have you wondered how this one man transformed the world? Something truly amazing must have happened during that time to get them to believe in Jesus and have the Way spread like wildfire. Was the resurrection the talk of the town? Was it the eyewitness accounts for all the miracles being performed? Maybe it was just supernatural work of God. What say you?

A question for the non believer.

Actually, by the time the Romans finished killing all the saints by the early fourth century, no one knew what happened. Not even the families and friends of the saints knew who these saints were. The family of Jesus didn't understand who Jesus was because sinners can't speak the truth. Since they can't speak the truth, they can't understand the truth.

Jesus and the saints didn't operate like the Roman Catholic church. All they did was preach the gospel until they were killed by the Romans. The Roman Catholic church was set up with pagan ideas that the Romans, Greeks, Persians and Babylonians worshiped in there cultures. This is where the first church buildings, altars, idols, creeds, rules and man's laws where made to deceive the followers of the saints that were killed.

If the Romans hadn't killed the saints, there wouldn't be any church buildings today. The church of the saints was in their hearts, minds and souls because they were created as the invisible Word. The same Word that was in Jesus was in the saints and the prophets and the Word can't be killed.

I don't think I would agree with that.

Most people won't agree with this but since it's the past, God can't change the fact that it happened like this. It's not up to man to decide how God did things but man doesn't care about what God says. They're more interested in their own interpretations.

you're making some assumptions that are not really in scripture..... I would agree with you that the early church didn't have church buildings, but to assume that they would not have when the romans and Jews stopped killing them is speculation on your part. most of the Christians in China don't have church buildings just like the early church, and for the same reason...... persecution. As the persecution stopped the church moved obove ground and met in public.

You might also find this article interesting...... especially the date.

http://www.jordantimes.com/?news=8471

[childeye]

Who is Jesus? Isn't it amazing how one Jewish man transformed the world for generation to come? Have you wondered how this one man transformed the world? Something truly amazing must have happened during that time to get them to believe in Jesus and have the Way spread like wildfire. Was the resurrection the talk of the town? Was it the eyewitness accounts for all the miracles being performed? Maybe it was just supernatural work of God. What say you?

A question for the non believer.

Actually, by the time the Romans finished killing all the saints by the early fourth century, no one knew what happened. Not even the families and friends of the saints knew who these saints were. The family of Jesus didn't understand who Jesus was because sinners can't speak the truth. Since they can't speak the truth, they can't understand the truth.

Jesus and the saints didn't operate like the Roman Catholic church. All they did was preach the gospel until they were killed by the Romans. The Roman Catholic church was set up with pagan ideas that the Romans, Greeks, Persians and Babylonians worshiped in there cultures. This is where the first church buildings, altars, idols, creeds, rules and man's laws where made to deceive the followers of the saints that were killed.

If the Romans hadn't killed the saints, there wouldn't be any church buildings today. The church of the saints was in their hearts, minds and souls because they were created as the invisible Word. The same Word that was in Jesus was in the saints and the prophets and the Word can't be killed.

I don't think I would agree with that.

Most people won't agree with this but since it's the past, God can't change the fact that it happened like this. It's not up to man to decide how God did things but man doesn't care about what God says. They're more interested in their own interpretations.

There are some points that are true. The church that appears 400 years later does not resemble the church in the book of Acts. While in one aspect those who do not see the Truth or are blind cannot understand because they are deceived, but still the Truth is not impotent if one knows how to wield it. There are those willing to die to preach the gospel, and those willing to kill to stop them. Satan does fear the Truth because it sets people free from the lies in which Satan holds men's minds captive. For instance, It is apparrant that you have an issue with the Roman Catholic institution and you claim a deception there. I don't see your interpretation of the word in any way I can concur, perhaps because of semantics. You seem to imply the Word does not exist in the church of today. I agree it is fading and so many people do not know what the gospel is , why it is preached and what is the power and the mechanics of that power to change people. The Word is the communication of God through which all things were created. It resides spiritually in everyone who feels love. It is this word in man that recognizes the Word made flesh because Jesus' words agree with the love in the heart. The gospel works to wash a false image of God from the mind which quickens the moral Spirit to become like God, and ruled in the heart by God one becomes a child of God and part of the Kingdom of light, redeemed from darkness. No wonder Satan does not want it preached, He'll lose all his captive souls.

Edited March 17, 2011 by childeye

[JohnD]

Who is Jesus? Isn't it amazing how one Jewish man transformed the world for generation to come? Have you wondered how this one man transformed the world? Something truly amazing must have happened during that time to get them to believe in Jesus and have the Way spread like wildfire. Was the resurrection the talk of the town? Was it the eyewitness accounts for all the miracles being performed? Maybe it was just supernatural work of God. What say you?

A question for the non believer.

I am a believer. But what I have encountered in the atheists I have been witnessing to for over 25 years now. To answer your question... they believe Jesus of Nazareth was elevated to the status we revere him in by myth, lore, martyrdom... after the fact predictive prophecies, and repeated validation of this seemingly closed system through a biased book (the Bible).

And it occurred to me one day that this is by design... that the proof is there, but it is not so tangible or emphatic that it will win over unbelievers set in their unbelief. And the fact of the matter is that without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6 also became clear when I was wondering why things are like they are. It is no game nor cosmic joke being played on humanity. It is in effect a discipline of getting humanity to individually reach beyond themselves and even beyond their capacity to sense or reason.

There is evidence and lots of it in the creation around us and not only in the pages of the Bible. But you must first believe. Seeing is not believing in God's economy. Believing is seeing. When we believe first then the evidence becomes crystal clear.

To a skeptic that sounds like blind faith, but it really isn't. Blind faith is when you cling on to a belief despite the evidence to the contrary or the lack of supportive evidence.

I realize there are those who claim they found their way to faith by the evidence they found when they set out to prove or disprove God's existence... Josh McDowell is one who comes to mind. But I would suggest that those who came this route actually came from more of an insecurity of their previously held world view because they encountered evidence that the lies they were told to support that previously held world view were not true and that world view is not as rock solid as they previously believed.

This being the case, I began witnessing to atheists with evidence from creation that chips away at their belief in macro-evolution... exposing their blind faith in that very poor theory.

I generally begin with pitting the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics against each other... which, when carried to its logical conclusion, prove that the existence of the universe is impossible (by scientific means or natural means). #1 the law of conservation states you cannot create anything from nothing (from nothing nothing comes). #2 the law of maximum entropy means the universe itself cannot be eternal. So, how'd it all get here?

Answer: an intelligence (determined intelligent by the fact that the universe has design) greater than the laws of physics created all things from nothing.

No science journal, not even any other "holy" book has ever addressed this matter with an eyewitness account that rivals the scientific method other than the Bible. None. And in fact it can be shown this so called antiquated book addressed such cosmological matters as the weightlessness of space in passages like

Job 26:7 (NASB95)

7

[TheGenuineChristian]

I'd like to explain two passages before I answer the question on Who is Jesus.

John 19:37 & Zechariah 12:10.

In the Masoretic Text of Zechariah 12:10 it says VE-HEBITU

[Guest shiloh357]

The talk is plural, because "plural of majesty" is used to talk to another being (whom I believe is the Son, who is the first and unique creation of God; Revelation 3:14) and then the action when brought about is singular showing that God created and not the being he was talking to.

hē archē tēs ktiseōs tou theou Does not refer to Jesus as the first unique creation. Rather, it refers to Jesus as the source of Creation. Jesus, according to Paul in Col. 1:15-16 and John 1:1-4 is the Creator.

Now to answer the question of the original post. Yehoshua (Jesus) is Melech haMoshiach (the King Messiah), Rabbi, Son of the Father, the one sent into the world, the Lamb of the Father, the Mediator between the Father and men, the Advocate with the Father, the Great Apostle and High Preist of our confession, the One who was tempted as we are yet without sin, the one who appeared in the presence of God on our behalf, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, the One who became perfect through suffering, and the One through whom we get salvation.

Okay, but do you believe that Jesus was and is God? Do you believe that Jesus was eternally co-existent with the Father from the immeasurable eternity past, and took on human flesh when He was supertnaturally conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of a virgin girl named Mary/Miriam?