Who is Jesus?

[j102]

for those that are searching for truth take a look at the many prophecy's that jesus fulfilled and also how many people have miraculously transformed lives after coming to jesus.

[MorningGlory]

Heaven holds little appeal for me, I have to say. I am happy with this life and with the struggle of living virtuously and wisely. I have no problem with going down into the dust. It is foolish to fear such a thing. One, it is unavoidable and two, we are simply returning to the same state we were in prior to birth.

What do you think we need salvation from? What do you think we need salvation for? Perfect happiness is available in this life for the wise and virtuous. One simply has to grasp it and discipline oneself.

I feel so sorry for you, Cato. I'm praying for an awakening within you; do you really believe THIS is all there is? So sad.

[OneLight]

1 Corinthians 1:18

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

[Matthitjah]

Hi 808State,

Accepting my atheism was not something I did with a smile on my face. Christianity gives it's followers a set path, it gives their lives meaning, it gives them the feeling of unconditional love, it gives them something constant in their lives, it gives them a chance to see loved ones after death in what seems to be a pretty awesome location, etc. That sounds good to me.

I couldn't help but notice that you've mentioned a couple of reasons why Christianity would be appealing, but have you thought about the unifying concept within all these? They're all... a little self-centred, wouldn't you say? See how many times you've used the word 'give'?

But the greatest of all you've missed, and that's something that is almost always the case. It's been said, and I believe this is true, that everybody wants to go to heaven, they just don't want God to be there when they get there. And yet heaven is heaven because God is there, but He is seldomly the reason why people want to go to heaven. Interesting, isn't it?

Wouldn't you say that atleast in this regard, it makes sense when the Bible says that we are at enmity with God? Wouldn't it be great to meet God? Yet we're generally focussed on ourselves.

We truly are enemies of God, and even though you may not have realised it, what you've said demonstrates it.

Think about it though, besides seeing your loved ones, and spending time in a great location, wouldn't it all pale in comparison with meeting the Being who created this wonderful universe, and gave you life? ...Gave your loved ones life? And speaking of gifts, again, a far greater gift than giving meaning to life and having a path to follow, is the price that Jesus paid to save His enemies. God becoming man and carrying the guilt of a mankind who wants His heaven, but doesn't want His presence.

Nobody likes hearing that they need salvation. It's an affront, but when one truly looks at oneself, and compares oneself to Jesus, the gift of salvation becomes something almost incredible. I've gone from thinking that I didn't need salvation and being offended by the idea, to being unable to fathom, even believe, that God could really love one such as me. That He really bought my freedom. That's the amazing thing about the gospel.

I thought I'd share this with you, perhaps it'll be meaningful to you in a small way or atleast offer some food for thought.

Hmm...

Heaven holds little appeal for me, I have to say. I am happy with this life and with the struggle of living virtuously and wisely. I have no problem with going down into the dust. It is foolish to fear such a thing. One, it is unavoidable and two, we are simply returning to the same state we were in prior to birth.

What do you think we need salvation from? What do you think we need salvation for? Perfect happiness is available in this life for the wise and virtuous. One simply has to grasp it and discipline oneself.

Actually, God say's that the wages of sin are death.

Ro 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Are you righteous enough to pass Gods Measure of Righteousness? Can you escape the wrath of God against sin?

peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Actually, God say's that the wages of sin are death.

Ro 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Are you righteous enough to pass Gods Measure of Righteousness? Can you escape the wrath of God against sin?

peace,

Dave

Death is a natural part of life. There is nothing to fear or be afraid of. As to the God of Abraham, I simply do not think He exists. I cannot find the evidence for him, though i have searched. I know not what 'righteous' is, but on the whole i do life virtuously.

Incidentally, what is 'sin'?

Sin is anything that you do that seperates you from God.

The righteous measure of God is found in the ten commandments.

Have you ever lied, stolen, or cheated from others? You've failed.

Have you placed yourself before God? You've failed and you've testified about that right here.

The Good News is this. God has made manifest His will for mankind through His Gospel of Outrageous Grace and left us His Word and the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ so that we might seek after Him.

Ac 17:23

For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore you ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Ac 17:24

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hands;

Ac 17:25

Neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he gives to all life, and breath, and all things;

Ac 17:26

And has made of one blood all nations of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Ac 17:27

That they should seek the Lord, if perhaps they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Ac 17:28

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Ac 17:29

Therefore then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Deity is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Ac 17:30

And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:

Ac 17:31

Because he has appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; and of this he has given assurance unto all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.

Peace,

Dave

[808state]

The motivation to evangelize and even to die in every other religion is to attain a reward (Salvation). In Christianity the goal is to Love God, He's already seen to our Salvation.

This isn't true. In Hinduism and Buddhism, evangelism and death are not apart of salvation. In Paganism the concept of salvation doesn't even exist. In Islam, you ask for forgiveness and then live your life in a way that's pleasing to Allah.

In Islam they seek a worldly kingdom through a caliphate. They never know if their god will be satisfied with them.

That again, isn't true. As I said above, it's through repentance and living your life for Allah that will guarantee salvation.

However, God is completely satisfied with Jesus Christ.

We aren't seeking salvation through works or even sacrifice;

Ho 6:6

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Mt 9:12

But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Mt 9:13

But go and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

We aren't seeking an earthly Kingdom either;

Joh 18:36

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from here.

We are seeking to let people know of Gods Outrageous act of Love and His Eternal Gift of Grace.

Therefore; we can't be bribed and nothing the earth has to offer us will any longer appeal to us.

We are in a relationship with the Living God of all Creation.

That's what I'm talking about. Not persecution or martrydom for the sake of martrydom.

Paul, the other Apostles, and even folks liken the Moravians willingly trashed their own lives for the Love of God. Not a reward. Selling yourself into slavery like the Moravians did doesn't really have any upside or rewards and their salvation wasn't based upon their work. Neither would they receive Nirvana or Twenty Vestal Virgins in the afterlife.

Why would men do such a thing?

peace,

Dave

Well, thank you for those verses, but it doesn't seem that people of other religions are bribed either. Or, at least, no more than in Christianity.

Isn't the reward in Christianity salvation? Say there was a Christian, but someone held a gun to this Christian's head and said they either have to denounce their religion or die. If this Christian denounces their religion, wouldn't that buy them a ticket to hell? Wouldn't that be incentive enough not to denounce their religion?

ps. In-order to achieve Nirvana in the after life, you have to first achieve it in life. That's not something that's given to you, but something you obtain by yourself. In Islam, as far as the virgins in the afterlife goes, this seems to be promised to all (male) Muslims regardless of how they die. But a lot of Muslims don't seem to believe there will be virgins for anyone in the afterlife. Plus, even if the 72 virgins thing were true, I believe it would be for those that deliberately kill themselves for Allah, not just anyone who dies for Islam in any context.

[Matthitjah]

This isn't true. In Hinduism and Buddhism, evangelism and death are not apart of salvation. In Paganism the concept of salvation doesn't even exist. In Islam, you ask for forgiveness and then live your life in a way that's pleasing to Allah.

Actually, it is true, because the Hindu and the Bhuddist live a life of disciplines to attain Nirvana. They are still working to achieve salvation.

That again, isn't true. As I said above, it's through repentance and living your life for Allah that will guarantee salvation.

Then why does allah ask for the destruction of theirs sons in martyrdom? Regardless, it is still a works based salvation because they must live a life pleasing to allah. Christ has already lived that life for me. I live a life pleasing to Him because He Loves me.

Well, thank you for those verses, but it doesn't seem that people of other religions are bribed either. Or, at least, no more than in Christianity.

Isn't the reward in Christianity salvation? Say there was a Christian, but someone held a gun to this Christian's head and said they either have to denounce their religion or die. If this Christian denounces their religion, wouldn't that buy them a ticket to hell? Wouldn't that be incentive enough not to denounce their religion?

ps. In-order to achieve Nirvana in the after life, you have to first achieve it in life. That's not something that's given to you, but something you obtain by yourself. In Islam, as far as the virgins in the afterlife goes, this seems to be promised to all (male) Muslims regardless of how they die. But a lot of Muslims don't seem to believe there will be virgins for anyone in the afterlife. Plus, even if the 72 virgins thing were true, I believe it would be for those that deliberately kill themselves for Allah, not just anyone who dies for Islam in any context.

No, there is no reward in Christianity. Salvation is Free to all whom will. The result of gaining this Love is a crown of Glory. However, it is certain that when we see Him face to face that we will cast our Crowns at His feet because He is alltogether Lovely and Worthy to be Praised. Any thing, any work, not built upon the foundation of this Love will burn up.

Re 4:10

The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

There's only One who is Worthy and He is at the center of all of heavens attention and at the center of all creation and our Faith.

Why do men like Paul who profess my faith do what they do? Why would men sell themselves into slavery to preach this Gospel? Why would men like Peter end up crucified upside down for the cause of Christ if Christ were a liar or a figment of a mans active imagination?

Peace,

Dave

[808state]

Actually, it is true, because the Hindu and the Bhuddist live a life of disciplines to attain Nirvana. They are still working to achieve salvation.

Fair enough. But, at the end of the day, they rely on themselves to attain salvation. It's not given to them through self-sacrifice. So, I don't see the bribery.

Then why does allah ask for the destruction of theirs sons in martyrdom? Regardless, it is still a works based salvation because they must live a life pleasing to allah. Christ has already lived that life for me. I live a life pleasing to Him because He Loves me.

The Qu'ran says that if you die fighting for Allah, then you become a martyr. But it doesn't say to go out of your way to seek martyrdom. It's also not the way to salvation. In-order to become a martyr, you must already be a Muslim, and if you're a "genuine" Muslim, then you already have salvation.

As a Christian, don't you still have to live a life that is pleasing to God? In-order to build a close relationship with God, don't you have to pay attention to things said in the Bible and act accordingly? Certainly this can be a daily struggle for many Christians, it takes active work.

No, there is no reward in Christianity. Salvation is Free to all whom will. The result of gaining this Love is a crown of Glory. However, it is certain that when we see Him face to face that we will cast our Crowns at His feet because He is alltogether Lovely and Worthy to be Praised. Any thing, any work, not built upon the foundation of this Love will burn up.

Re 4:10

The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

There's only One who is Worthy and He is at the center of all of heavens attention and at the center of all creation and our Faith.

Why do men like Paul who profess my faith do what they do? Why would men sell themselves into slavery to preach this Gospel? Why would men like Peter end up crucified upside down for the cause of Christ if Christ were a liar or a figment of a mans active imagination?

Peace,

Dave

"Anyone who comes to him [God] must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Hebrews 11:6)

"Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." (Matthew 5:12 )

Certainly you must be genuine in your pursuit of these rewards, and not have these rewards be the basis of your faith. But that's what the other religions I listed say as well. So, again, I'm not seeing a huge difference.

[Guest]

O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end:

and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.

But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.

And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.

And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee:

for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them

that seek thee. Psalms 9:6-10

____________

Heaven holds little appeal for me, I have to say. I am happy with this life and with the struggle of living virtuously and wisely. I have no problem with going down into the dust. It is foolish to fear such a thing. One, it is unavoidable and two, we are simply returning to the same state we were in prior to birth.....

Hmm

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

No Doubt

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. Psalms 1:1-2

Heaven Holds No Appeal

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Revelation 22:13-15

For Anyone Who Sets His Will To Sin Against The LORD

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36

Yet Anyone Who Sets His Hope On Death

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39

As Their Eternal Hiding Place

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15

Has A Religious Tenet

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:28-29

Of The Damned

____________

What do you think we need salvation from? What do you think we need salvation for? Perfect happiness is available in this life for the wise and virtuous. One simply has to grasp it and discipline oneself....

Virtuous

As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness. Psalms 17:15

Or Self Righteousness

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6

Wise Men Seek Jesus

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. Matthew 2:1-2

But The Unwise

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

Will Not

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

____________

Believe

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

And Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[Dionysiou]

Who is jesus? well since i can't recall ever meeting Him i really don't know.