Judging God

[Isaiah 6:8]

I have noticed that atheists bring judgement against God based on there personal morals.

God is not loving because he did x, y,z God is not good because, x, y, z. These are all statements based on a moral view point that their idea of God does not line up with.

So my question is where do atheists get the moral code to judge God by?

[MorningGlory]

I have noticed that atheists bring judgement against God based on there personal morals.

God is not loving because he did x, y,z God is not good because, x, y, z. These are all statements based on a moral view point that their idea of God does not line up with.

So my question is where do atheists get the moral code to judge God by?

They HAVE no moral code; if there are no eternal consequences for actions, there is no moral code. Atheists presume to judge God because they know He exists (would anyone try to judge that which they don't believe exists?) but they wish He didn't. They have some vain, ill-conceived notion that if they can criticize Him harshly enough, they can overcome Him. That would be hilarious if wasn't so absolutely pitiful.

[nebula]

Of course they have a moral code. If we need fear of eternal punishement to behave morally,

then humanity would be in a really sorry state indeed.

So where do you get your moral code to judge God, as One Light asked?

[MorningGlory]

They HAVE no moral code; if there are no eternal consequences for actions, there is no moral code.

Of course they have a moral code. If we need fear of eternal punishement to behave morally,

then humanity would be in a really sorry state indeed.

Viole......I don't want to alarm you but humanity IS in a really sorry state, and will be until the Lord returns.

[Littlelambseativy]

But according to the OT God set down laws and said do not break them they are for your own good - and they are.

He did not deviate one iota from those laws and what He expected of man. He has NEVER deviated from His Word. He is just, and honourable. To judge Him you must first judge yourself according to His laws then and only then can you judge Him. He has not deviated until this very day. He stands firm on His Word and that He will fulfill.

[Isaiah 6:8]

Of course they have a moral code. If we need fear of eternal punishement to behave morally,

then humanity would be in a really sorry state indeed.

So where do you get your moral code to judge God, as One Light asked?

As I said before, I am not judging God (that would be absurd). Actually, I am not judging anyone.

I just find it contradictory to call the God of the OT a benevolent being. The same with the salvation

doctrine; I find it inconceivable that a good human being who never believed in Jesus, is not

rescued from eternal torment. I cannot imagine such a superior being putting so much importance

into believing in Him.

And I think now that my moral compass (which did not change BTW) is a result of evolutionary pressure.

Yes you are Stating that God is not benevolent, is judging his character. You are doing so with out seeing everything or understanding everything he does. Or even from that matter trying to understand. You seek out books to disprove God, but yet ignore books that show who he is.

As shown in this story...

Things are not always what they seem

Two travelling angels stopped to spend the night in the home of a wealthy family. The family was rude and refused to let the angels stay in the mansion's guestroom.

Instead the angels were given a small space in the cold basement.

As they made their bed on the hard floor, the older angel saw a hole in the wall and repaired it.

When the younger angel asked why, the older angel replied, "Things aren't always what they seem."

The next night the pair came to rest at the house of a very poor, but very hospitable farmer and his wife. After sharing what little food they had the couple let the angels sleep in their bed where they could have a good night's rest.

When the sun came up the next morning the angels found the farmer and his wife in tears. Their only cow, whose milk had been their sole income, lay dead in the field. The younger angel was infuriated and asked the older angel how could you have let this happen?

The first man had everything, yet you helped him, she accused. The second family had little but was willing to share everything, and you let the cow die. "Things aren't always what they seem," the older angel replied.

"When we stayed in the basement of the mansion, I noticed there was gold stored in that hole in the wall.

Since the owner was so obsessed with greed and unwilling to share his good fortune, I sealed the wall so he wouldn't find it.

Then last night as we slept in the farmers bed, the angel of death came for his wife. I gave him the cow instead. "Things aren't always what they seem".

as for you statement,

And I think now that my moral compass (which did not change BTW) is a result of evolutionary pressure.

What evolutionary pressure? Evolution does not explain how sexes split to two, and, it does not say why Humans should have any morals on the subject. Why is Murder wrong if you kill to increase the health and wealth of you and yours? There is no moral reason why not. Lying, why is it wrong to lie? What could have prompted that in evolution that it would be wrong to lie?

[other one]

I have noticed that atheists bring judgement against God based on there personal morals.

God is not loving because he did x, y,z God is not good because, x, y, z. These are all statements based on a moral view point that their idea of God does not line up with.

So my question is where do atheists get the moral code to judge God by?

Isaiah, they get it from the internal knowledge that most humans have. It's basically what's best for me, my family and my friends. It would be a bit different if you were a progressive than if you were a Conservative as to what your moral values are.

They get some of their x y's and Z's from bible history and what we as believers say about him. Case in point, if you get down to the nitty gritty of the Calvinistic view of God, This overpowering God has created this huge number of people who he made spicifically to throw into hell fire and torment forever...... and their fate was sealed before they ever took a breath. Well personally I find that as appalling as does any atheist, but there are some here that say it's OK for God to do that cause he's God.

Then when they really don't see the dangers of Homosexuality, they find it difficult to swallow stoning them for it...... and sex outside of marriage from their viewpoint really doesn't seem to hurt anyone long term so how could you stone someone for that.

Then you have a God who when going into the promice land on two occasions instructed the Israelites to kill everything that drew a breath....... and because the bible itself does not tell us why, they look on that as genocide and seemingly against even the teaching of God not to murder.

I believe that basic morality is actually put into all humans and those without it don't see the dangers of what they might break. There are some people who have been so abused that they are incapable of morals.

So basically they get their morality from the very God they condemn but they don't know and understand Him, and don't understand that there is a lot in "Church Groups" that is not from God.

[MorningGlory]

And I think now that my moral compass (which did not change BTW) is a result of evolutionary pressure.

So you believe that morality evolved from the lower primates?

[Guest shiloh357]

But according to the OT God set down laws and said do not break them they are for your own good - and they are.

He did not deviate one iota from those laws and what He expected of man. He has NEVER deviated from His Word. He is just, and honourable. To judge Him you must first judge yourself according to His laws then and only then can you judge Him. He has not deviated until this very day. He stands firm on His Word and that He will fulfill.

Now I am confused, I have been told that laws like the following applied only in Israel when it was a theocracy.

You seem to indicate hat they are still valid:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard. Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

I can see where that would be confusing. In "Christian speak," whenever we refer to God's laws, we are generally referring to laws dealing with moral failure such as the 10 commandments, laws against sexual impurity, idolatry, dabblling in the occult and so forth.

There were commandments that did apply only to ancient Israel and then only when Israel was a theocracy. We understand that many of the commandments fall under different categories of observance. The moral/ethical commandments are universal and apply to all people, where the civil and ceremonial commandments only apply to Israel and then only under certain conditions.

I hope that helps with the confusion. If not, I can provide further clarification if you like.

[Guest shiloh357]

Of course they have a moral code. If we need fear of eternal punishement to behave morally,

then humanity would be in a really sorry state indeed.

So where do you get your moral code to judge God, as One Light asked?

As I said before, I am not judging God (that would be absurd). Actually, I am not judging anyone.

I just find it contradictory to call the God of the OT a benevolent being. The same with the salvation

doctrine; I find it inconceivable that a good human being who never believed in Jesus, is not

rescued from eternal torment. I cannot imagine such a superior being putting so much importance

into believing in Him.

Well it helps to understand the problem a bit better. God does not judge us on the basis of being good or evil. That is our standard, but not His.

God judges on the basis of righteousness, which is not a moral quality, but rather a spiritual one. It is man's spiritual standing before God that determines his eternal destiny.

Because of Adam's fall in the Garden of eden, all people have inherited a spiritual condition wherein we are spiritually dead, or spiritually separated from God. That is called "Sin." The sins we commit are the outgrowth of our sinful condition. Man, by default, stands before God in a sinful condition, separated from Him and there is a sentence of death that hangs over the corporate head of all humanity; the Bible calls it the "curse of the law." Nothing good we do can offset this condition. Man, on his/her own, is powerless, and utterly impotent to affect any change of this condition.

God's plan of redemption is meant to reverse the curse. God in His grace provides man a way out. Jesus came to earth and He fulfilled the righteousness of God's law and lived a sinless life. He gave His life as a sacrifice in order to satisfy the justice of God for the rest of us. Adam sinned as man's federal head in the Garden of Eden. Jesus was man's federal head before God and stood in our place and the full weight of God's wrath and hatred of sin was hurled at Jesus and took it all upon Himself. He died on behalf of us all and thus satisified God's justice against sin.

As a result, on the basis of that finished work of Jesus on the cross, God is able and willing to impute to us, on the basis of our faith, the very righteousness of Jesus. He is our righteousness. When we place our faith in Jesus, He fulfills the righteousness of the law in us (Rom. 8:4). To those who will trust Jesus as their savior, God imparts to them His free gift of grace. It is free to us because the price was paid by Jesus. God promises to forgive us, to cleanse us and He looks at us as if Adam had never sinned. The past is gone; we are new creations and we are indwelt and empowered by His Holy Spirit. In addition we have the promise of eternal life RIGHT NOW, not off sometime in the future. We receive eternal life and the promise of a eternal future in the presence of the Lord forever.

Believing and trusting in Him is the means by which He imputes to us the righteouesness of Christ and it is the means by which we recieve the free gift of eternal life. That is why it is soooo important to believe on Jesus.

And I think now that my moral compass (which did not change BTW) is a result of evolutionary pressure.

I doubt it. Evolution does not address the issue of morality/ethics or the nature of man.