Creation???

[Fraught]

i was a fervent young-earther until . . . . the sun and stars and the moon didn't appear until the 4th 'day'. clearly, 'day' equals 'age'.

secondly, God is obviously still creating NOW, in what i believe the be the 6th 'day', and we are to be zealous to enter God's rest, the 7th 'day'.

[other one]

It would depend on whether you're speaking of Genesis 1:1 or Genesis 1:2 from my viewpoint.

What do you mean by this? Please present both sides so I can see what you're getting at...

Gen 1:1

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

NASB

Isa 45:18

18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens

(He is the God who formed the earth and made it,

He established it and did not create it a waste place,

But formed it to be inhabited),

NASB

Gen 1:2

2 And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

NASB

Both of my Lexicons tell me that the word translated was can be either "to be", "to become" or "come to pass"

I happen to be among a group of people who believe that there were things that happened in between the two verses pertaining to a very long time and the earth was laid waste in the process. The rest took six days to put things together and the rest is a roughly six thousand year history of mankind and our introduction to the entities that created things.

I might add that there are other groups of people who think I'm a crazy heretic for saying so....... Take your pick..

[~candice~]

I'm not a believer in the gap theory, but...

I might add that there are other groups of people who think I'm a crazy heretic for saying so....... Take your pick..

God bless you bro.

[Guest shiloh357]

Both of my Lexicons tell me that the word translated was can be either "to be", "to become" or "come to pass"

That is true, in some cases, but not in Gen. 1:2. The reason why is in the sentence structure.

In Gen. 1:2, "and the earth was..." is what we call a "vav disjunctive." That is because the word "and" (the letter vav in Hebrew) is not folowed by a verb. When it is followed by a vav we call the phrase a vav connective.

v' ha-eretz hayah... Hayah is the verb and is only translated "became" in a vav connective. It is translated "was" in a vav disjunctive.

What this means is that there is nothing connecting verse 1 and 2. Gen. 1:1 is a synopsis of the entire creation account. Verse 2 is not connected continuation of verse 1. If it were, there would be a vav connective phrase in verse 2 and the verb hayah would be understood as became.

It is the vav connective that would be needed to support the gap theory, but as it stands, it isn't there. So from Hebrew, the gap theory cannot be supported.

[Guest]

It would depend on whether you're speaking of Genesis 1:1 or Genesis 1:2 from my viewpoint.

What do you mean by this? Please present both sides so I can see what you're getting at...

Gen 1:1

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

NASB

Isa 45:18

18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens

(He is the God who formed the earth and made it,

He established it and did not create it a waste place,

But formed it to be inhabited),

NASB

Gen 1:2

2 And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

NASB

Both of my Lexicons tell me that the word translated was can be either "to be", "to become" or "come to pass"

I happen to be among a group of people who believe that there were things that happened in between the two verses pertaining to a very long time and the earth was laid waste in the process. The rest took six days to put things together and the rest is a roughly six thousand year history of mankind and our introduction to the entities that created things.

I might add that there are other groups of people who think I'm a crazy heretic for saying so....... Take your pick..

It's called the gap theory, and there are many out here who also believe that way. And you're right, we get called much more than "heretic." But, it IS only a theory which is totally un-provable until we see the father, then it won't even matter.

[winsomebulldog]

I'm not a believer in the gap theory, but...

I might add that there are other groups of people who think I'm a crazy heretic for saying so....... Take your pick..

God bless you bro.

What Candice said.

[winsomebulldog]

And in reply to the gist of this whole discussion, I just have to wonder why it is that so many out there keep trying to make God - the Creator of the entire universe, the One who designed all the sciences and mathematics that define and explain how it all seems to work - fit into the framework of those sciences and mathematics. He created it. He can manipulate it however He likes. He is not bound by physics or time or anything else. Knowing this, why must we continue to try to "explain" how He did it? If you're thinking that God is bound by the very laws of nature that He designed then you're basically saying the miracles do not and cannot exist. In which case, Jesus was not God manifested in the flesh and He did not rise from the dead and we're all just wasting our time following Him.

I choose not to go down that path. God is all-knowing, all-encompassing, all-everything. We can't squeeze Him into any of our self-defined boxes.

[JohnD]

I don't know how current everyone is here with the latest "scientific" scuttlebutt regarding evolution / the big bang... but now they are claiming the universe is bigger than previously thought...

They claim it is bigger than the observable universe (which is some 96 billion light years across) by comparison as the observable universe is to a single atom.

Understand not nearly as much as they claim to be fact is fact... for example, the distances they claim to be between stars and galaxies is based on mere mathematical speculation since there is no way to triangulate such vast distances with such a limited revolution earth has. We can only triangulate from the further opposite points of our revolution circuit around the sun to a give point. That is extremely thin triangulation...

Point number two, they already have painted themselves into a corner about so-called scientific dating methods... 13 billion years... but galaxies alleged to be 46 billion light years away are showing up in the Hubble Telescope photos... in every direction.

And now they claim than projected 96 billion light years is like an atom compared to the size of the universe... based on matter-antimatter hypothesis that space is welling up (out)...

> Shaking my head <

I recall the grief they used to give me for suggesting that God could create it all in an instant. Now they are claiming a theoretical size of the universe that would make it much larger much faster than the creation model.

BTW this latest twist in logic is due to their dark matter theories not panning out.

I am reminded of a m,mental picture of a dog leashed to a stake in the ground and the dog constantly fighting the leash refusing to accept the fact that it is tied down...

we mortals are so stupid... {sigh}

Edited July 23, 2011 by JohnDB

[OneLight]

Six literal 24 hour days as stated in Genesis. There was evening and morning after each day.

Ok. I understand where you are coming from. I used to be a YEC too.

First, let's get some terminology down and why I don't believe in the 24 hour yom theory

ereb - evening or ending

boquer - morning or beginning

yom - day (12 hour), day (24 hour), long period of time

These words do not necessarily indicate 24 hour days:

Genesis 1:5 states -orb (evening) u-iei (and he-is-becoming) bqr (morning) ium (day) achd (one)

This states that the evening (-orb) and the morning (bqr) are the first day (ium).

You can take whatever else you want from any other Scripture that uses the same words but it does not change what is written here.

[OneLight]

Ok. I understand where you are coming from. I used to be a YEC too.

First, let's get some terminology down and why I don't believe in the 24 hour yom theory

ereb - evening or ending

boquer - morning or beginning

yom - day (12 hour), day (24 hour), long period of time

These words do not necessarily indicate 24 hour days:

A thousand years in your sight are like a day [yom] that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night. - Psalm 90:4

Here the psalmist compares a yom to a thousand years.

He is not saying that 1000 years = one day with God. He is using a similie, a figure of speech to illustrate a bigger point. The Psalmist is brief transitory nature of human life. God does not die and is unchanging. He lives outside linear time and so his perspective on life is quite a bit different than are own. No one has ever lived to 1,000 years of age.

The REAL comaprison being made is the eternal, unchanging existence of God vs. the fragile, temporary, every changing existence of man.

As for the word yom in creation... If God wanted to tell us that each unit of creation was accomplished in long epochs of thousands or even millions of years, there are other words in Hebrew rather than yom that could have been used. The word olam is one such word.

Furthermore when other places in the Bible reference the the days of creation, they do not make any attempt to communicate that those days were anything other than regular, 24-hour days (Exod. 20:11 31:17).

You need to keep in mind that the creation of the world/universe was a supernatural event authored by an all-powerful, all-knowing God who also guides and sustains it down to the very last atom. From what we see in Scripture, He micro-manages every aspect of creation. So given that, the notion that He created all of this in 6 days is a valid position and is the one view that is faithful to the plain and intended meaning of the biblical text.

If you are going to approach it biblically, then you need to show from the Scriptures that the Bible intended something other than the plain sense of the word yom in Gen. 1.

Exactly Brother! That is the part that so many scientist have a hard time with; that God can and did create everything in a literal 6 day period because He could. God didn't have to roll out creation over thousands or millions of years so "nature can take it's course". Science can't "prove" creation, so they look elsewhere for proof.