removing a church family from church

[Leonard]

I do not know your position in the church, so I cannot say. If you are the responsible Pastor, then you have absolutely acted within your biblical guidelines. If you are not, then you needed the two additional steps of taking them before 'two or three witnesses' and lastly 'before the whole church.'

[Smalcald]

Hello my extended friends, yea its been a while.

What Im looking for is just feed back, we get all types here so i want to run this by you all and see what say you.

A few months ago I had to remove a family from our church. A year ago had a young couple want to get married by me. I told them sure and sat with them to let them kow what needs to done in order for it to happen. At first they where good with what needed to happen. two weeks go by and I had not heard from them, i would see them and ask how is everything going, they said fine. Not to long after that we have our yearly fathers day outting I found out that they got an apartment together and had been living together for a few months now. I told them I could not marry them now. I still allowed them to come to church. The young lady has an older brother who has been coming to our church for years and was one of my leaders. I found out that he had been telling his sister that living together was not a sin, since they were getting married any way! I had no Idea he had this view. I talked with him and he just disagreed with not scripture to stand on. So I waited a while. During this time I find out that they are going to church members to discuss this and were dividing the church and people, new people would just walk up to and ask me about cohabitation and other questions about our fellowship, it was just odd. So I get an oppertunity to deal with both of these and asked them to stop speaking against me and our church, they refused, so i removed them from our church for promoting sin in their sisters life and causeing division in the church. I went to my pastors above me and they were divided on my choice. i have no regrets, but this was very hard to do. What say you?

You can't have this sort of thing in a congregation you did the right thing. If someone wants to speak against the pastor and the bible they should not be part of the congregation. Christianity is not a Democracy we don't vote on what is right and wrong or on the Word of God nor do we lobby to create divisions. Backbiting sewing discord, these are cancers that must be removed.

The only thing I may have done differently is when you found out they were living together was at that point to speak to them privately about why this is wrong and not something Christians can do. Many Christians today old and young honestly don't even know that this is fornication and sin. You could have offered them the chance of moving out for a couple of weeks to get the wedding together and the time to repent and walk in purity prior to their wedding. I mean this would be a great gift and a great way to start their marriage. I have had several friends who were intimate with their future spouses were convicted of the fact that this was sinful and repented and stopped for the engagement period and now really are glad that they did.

I did a lot of what you said i even made the point about honoring Jesus in their relationship and that bring this sort of thing into your marriage will only make things worse. It just got to a point that her brother made them feel ok about their sin and that to me is blood on his hands and i had to deal with that quickly and i did and they are gone, still thinking that they are right in their position and are ok with no scripture to stand on. its just sad. I know it could have been handled better, i did the best i could and I know God is backing me. Thanks

e

The fact is you showed how much you cared about both them, the Word of God and your congregation by doing this very hard thing. Most pastors today won't do what you did, it is easier just to let things go and make everyone happy.

[Believer112]

Wouldn't it have been better to marry them so they no longer keep living in sin than to not marry them and they keep living in sin? After all they're already living together, have already shared a bed so it's highly unlikely they'll move out, get married (I'm assuming even then you wouldn't marry them) then move in together again. JMO is all.

I understand your point, but I am responsable not only to the Lord but those i repersent and other members who know this is not right for christians. Since they would not follow my instructions i could not marry them. thay refused to follow my direction. I had asked them seperate for one month to go through counseling, at first they were fine with this but it was her brother who had changed their minds.

I didn't think cohabitation was a sin. Unless you are assuming they were having sex?

[Smalcald]

I think in common wording there is a difference between a roommate and cohabitation. Cohabitation refers to a couple who are romantically tied as boyfriend and girlfriend and are living as husband and wife without marriage in the same home. Yes they may be living together and not having sex and that would be different. I don't know of any couples doing that though, but maybe?

[Shiloh62]

Every once in a blue moon, you get peopel that are troublemakers for no reason,and the only choice you have is removing them. Last resort option, but you did speak to them, and they did not repent, you did the right thing.

[Littlelambseativy]

Just a question - Is the church for sinners or for Christians?

I think of Christ eating with the sinners not with the Pharisees. You have no idea what the rest of your congregatiion is doing behind closed doors - are they the real upstanding citizens of the congregation that you think they are? Christ came to save the very ones that you asked to leave your congregation. I would have befriended them and got them to marry as soon as possible. It seems to me that just by asking the question you are not certain that you did the right thing as do others of your congregation. That couple could have been nutured into a ministering couple for your church. Why judge them as harshly as you have? I guess for me the church is for sinners who need to be shown the love of the Father.

[MeLessHimMore]

I've often wondered myself about this issue. I'm not a pastor but a worship leader. However, I know that I must do all I can to support the leadership above me and I've been under preachers that have taken both approaches. Take the issue of two people living together before marriage who have been counseled against doing so as it goes against God's moral principles (let's leave the brother and his influence aside momentarily). On one hand, you have two people who are willfully disobedient to wise counsel. Then let's say a pastor marries them to dodge the sinfulness of their situation. After some time, because they have not the moral character and fortitude to follow through on their vows and covenants, they divorce. This sin will cause them further harm and may have some dire lasting reproductions. When all is said and done, you have the consequences of two serious sins to deal with. Would the pastor have been wiser to NOT marry them because they showed an unwilling, uncooperative heart towards the mind and will of God? Personally, I have to think so. Does the pastor share some responsibility before God as a vessel used in the joining together of the two into one (obviously, God does that but the pastor acts as a priest for them before God, no)? No pastor should take such ordination lightly.

Is there a possibility that the two would live on together in harmony until their 50th anniversary. Possibly. But that is a matter between those two and God. The pastor has to be responsible for that which God has called him to.

In our church, we had a couple (children of members but not members themselves) who wanted to have their baby baptized (I'm Methodist, though I stringently disagree with Wesley on this one and do not believe in baptism for babies myself; dedicate them all day long but...anyway). They were living together, had this child, but were not married and did not intend to get married. Yet they were wanting to say before the church and priorly before God that they were going to raise this child according to His laws and nurture him towards a life of faith in God. What would have been the right call here? Some would say why would you deny a child? Tricky issues!

That is why we shouldn't have eaten the fruit. We are horrible at deciding an absolute right and wrong when so many circumstances give rise to grey areas. Only God can judge rightly on these things. And because of that, the answers to these questions are to be found not in creeds, doctrines and theological statements of denominations, and not in feelings, etc. but in the Word of God. With proper hermeneutical study one can know what the good and right thing to do in these situations by letting the Word shed its light on the path of righteousness. Praying for you because I know that it can be difficult and uncomfortable to go through these things. Be strong and courageous!!!

[MeLessHimMore]

Just a question - Is the church for sinners or for Christians?

I think of Christ eating with the sinners not with the Pharisees. You have no idea what the rest of your congregatiion is doing behind closed doors - are they the real upstanding citizens of the congregation that you think they are? Christ came to save the very ones that you asked to leave your congregation. I would have befriended them and got them to marry as soon as possible. It seems to me that just by asking the question you are not certain that you did the right thing as do others of your congregation. That couple could have been nutured into a ministering couple for your church. Why judge them as harshly as you have? I guess for me the church is for sinners who need to be shown the love of the Father.

Hmmm. I didn't see your post before my prior one. You ask a great and interesting question. I think the church is for sinners who have come to salvation in Christ. I know many will disagree and from your post I know you probably will, but I do not think the Church (the Body of Christ and the fellowship and ministry therein) is for the unregenerate sinner any more than heaven is. The perspective of grace and American church culture from long ago to the present has given us this "church" equation that it is but it isn't what we see throughout the New Testament and at the birth of the Jewish and Gentile church in the book of Acts. The ministry that should be happening in our corporate worship services on the weekends should be focused on the edification and feeding of the Body of Christ (the Church). Due to the fact that we've fouled up the "formula" (if you will) of GO and make disciples THEN bring them into the fellowship, we have tons and tons of people sitting under preaching that means little to nothing to them yet they come to pacify a sense of religious obligation. And that they do, never really knowing salvation (if they really HAVE salvation as some may say they don't) and remain nominal Christians at best if they even are. They have never really dealt with a commitment to Jesus and experienced His love and know nothing of sacrificing themselves for Christ and are therefore motivated by their own agendas and cause MUCH of this type of distention that we are discussing here in this thread. If they are in the faith, they remain babes and never grow to maturity. We actually do them a disservice by placating them into a false sense of faith (that pacifying of the moral/religious obligation) that may be endangering their souls and we do ourselves a disservice by having our preachers boxed in to preaching a "milk" instead of a "meat" sermon from week to week just trying to evangelized the unsaved or "barely" saved if you will.

While I definitely see the heart of Littlelambs and others perspective and those points are well taken, I think the Scripture supports that the Church is for the Body of Christ. Evangelism should happen out in the markets, streets, fields, and taverns (where Jesus ate with the sinners and Pharisees). Proclaim Christ's death, burial, and resurrection there. When they are cut to the heart and cry for what they must do to be saved, lead them into falling in love with and a relationship with Jesus. THEN get them involved in growing into the deeper things of God and among a fellowship in which they can grow. At that time you will have people who walk in the power of the Living God as congregants. Should we ever get this right, we might not have to worry as much about what is going on behind the closed doors of believers and constantly be accused of being fruit inspectors and judgers. Joint WORSHIP would be drastically different in tone, power, and atmosphere. What a mighty vision that is!!

Edited July 24, 2011 by MeLessHimMore

[Littlelambseativy]

MeLessHimMore, In a world of 50-100+years ago I would agree with you that you could get out there and minister to the lost. Today's laws do not permit it.

The more I hear of leaders in our churches, be they ministers, pastors, or other, the more I understand the sifting that is going on in our chruches. It seems as though it is the leaders who need the gospel preached to them. When pastors lie, spy and ask others to cheat. Or teach the feel good ministry and just want to get the people in, baptized and paying and others have churches run only by their families and no one else can gain any work within the church no matter how good they are or the minister is divorced, there is something wrong from the top down not from the people who are sinners and come in wanting to hear the message. How else will they learn? How will they be able to stand before the Father and say, 'I never knew. No one told me."

There is no better place for a sinner than in the church.

[OneLight]

I will refrain from judging your actions or theirs. I was not part of the situation and have no idea how the Holy Spirit was leading you. Yet, even though this has already taken place, I see an opportunity for a great sermon, one about gossip, division and the world.