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Are Christians Perfect?


Isaiah 6:8

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On 6/13/2012 at 3:43 PM, Oh Hamburgers! said:

My point is if you determine "good fruit" to be a consistent pattern of good behavior among others, it is not something that only Christians can bear.

 

If instead "good fruit" is how you profess your faith or perhaps devote time speaking to others about Jesus, then perhaps that is something more inherently "Christian".

Good fruit may often in Scripture and among ekklesia be meaning "true teaching",  accurate and perfectly in line with all Scripture, proceeding from YHVH.

This is uncommon on earth, even in most churches in the world,  and 'naturally' is not found in heathen or pagan religions nor in society outside of Christ Jesus.

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8 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Good fruit may often in Scripture and among ekklesia be meaning "true teaching",  accurate and perfectly in line with all Scripture, proceeding from YHVH.

This is uncommon on earth, even in most churches in the world,  and 'naturally' is not found in heathen or pagan religions nor in society outside of Christ Jesus.

Good fruit is good character. The fruit contains the seed of the gospel; if the fruit is rotten, the seed will be. Evangelism and witness is wholly dependant on Christ's work in the life which results in us being transformed into His image...this must be first, the sowing and disbursement of the seed is the more effective as the fruit ripens and is "eaten" by others. As others witness our good characters, then they become open to the gospel. 

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On 10/16/2011 at 9:46 AM, Isaiah 6:8 said:

The subject of Christians and fruit and good behavior and bad behavior has come up a lot recently, so I felt I needed to clarify what it means to have good fruit and what it means to be a Christian.

 

To start off, Christians are not perfect. They still struggle with different issues. Christians still have issues with anger, with pride, with selfishness and lust. Being a Christian does not make you into a perfect angel. It means you have started on the path to perfection, which we will obtain by the sacrifice of Jesus when we make it into heaven. The Bible states as such.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many people in the world however judge Christians by there behavior, and say things such as "Look that Christian lost his temper and said a bad thing so they are no different then me." or on the flip side " I am not a believer but I am nicer that christian over there so I am better then him."

 

You see they mistake fruit to be an individual action or behavior. The point is not if they make a mistake now and again, the question is more of as a whole, does there life show a change? Or what would that person be like with out Christ.

 

For instance, a person with out Christ may be likened to a baby who does not know how to walk yet. As they learn they fall constantly, and as often as not decide to crawl instead. Yes they can take a few steps from time to time, but they still wind up back on all fours. Now a Christian is like more like a older toddler. They walk all the time, however they still fall from time to time, as they grow and learn they fall less and less until one day it almost never happens.

 

Now I know this is not a perfect example, for of course in the natural course of life, all babies, unless crippled for some reason eventually learn to walk, and they need no outside influence to do so.

 

Spiritually, Christians are people who are just learning to walk, and can not do so with out the help of God to teach them. The fruit is shown that they are indeed walking, even if they stumble and fall from time to time. A baby that always crawls and rarely walks and stays that way is showing no progress, no fruit. So you see, if you knew what a person would be like, or was like with out Christ you may understand what fruit there life has produced.

 

Let me perhaps make it a bit clearer by me telling a bit about myself.

 

When I was in school I was a bully magnet. I was a good head shorter then everyone else, save one or two of the girls, I had braces head gear, neck gear, I was a nerd and a goody two-shoe. My family was also lower middle class so I wore cheap clothes and hand me downs. I was an easy target and as such I was often bulled and harassed over and over again, and the teachers, when told about it simply blamed me and said it was my fault.

 

This went on for a few years and by the time I was in sixth grade it was getting bad. I was threatened with a beating if I did not wear the "in" brand of shirt, I was picked on because I was still a virgin at 13 years old, and I did not fit in with any crowd. I was getting to the point that I was almost willing to do anything to stop the attacks. I was willing to throw away all of my morals if it meant a day in school with out being bullied.

 

Yes I was a Christian at that time and but it was not fully real to me. I was willing to throw it away to stop the pain. My mom did, wisely take me out of that school and I had a chance to regain a sense of who I was.

 

You see, while I was spared having to deal with that, by my parents, it showed me one thing looking back. It showed me who I would be with out Christ. I would be just like everyone else. I would not see anything wrong with weed, with sex outside of marriage with anything that was sinful. The really scary thing is this. Due to the years of being bullied, I could even seeing me lashing out like so many of the bullied kids have and perhaps even gone so far as to find a way to cause harm to my antagonists violently, as I was already wiling to start fights to keep people off my back.

 

You see, with out Christ, I would have eventually had produced evil fruit. For I know the darkness in my own heart, and I know that He has been changing me.

 

Now I am not perfect. I still have issues with my anger, and lust, and pride, even on the boards I have lashed out at people in frustration. Just because I have made mistakes does not mean that is who I am , and who I will be, it means I tripped, and fell down. Falling down is one thing, crawling and wallowing in the mud is another.

 

So for those who point out that Christians don't bear good fruit, you can not say that unless you know the whole story. You need to know where they are coming from and how far they have come before you can try to judge that.

 

Remember fruit is more then just one action, mistake or even good deed. Fruit is the over all change in the persons life, the whole package, and that may take some time.

 

For instance John Newton became a Christian he was a slave ship captain at the time, who in a storm had even thrown all his "cargo" of slaves overboard to save his ship. After his conversion, he still did two more slave ship voyages. Does this mean his conversion was not real, or producing good fruit? No it means he was still learning and growing. The thing is this, after he realized how evil it was to be a slaver, he became a minister of the gospel and helped William Wilberforce to abolish the slave trade in England. He also wrote a hymn that is still sung widely today where he explains how amazing it was that he was saved, although he was, as he put it ,a wretch. He is the author of the hymn "Amazing Grace."

Yes, Christians are imperfect, but MUST be perfect when the time comes, thus the gospel:

1. Imperfect people cannot live peacefully in a perfect place.

2. Christ died and rose, the perfect to substitute for the imperfect.

3. Trust Jesus, who died and rose to pay for our guilt, our sin, our shame, our imperfection.

A Christian who went to Heaven today would ruin the place! But a person made morally perfect at the Rapture transformation, won't.

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4 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

Yes, Christians are imperfect, but MUST be perfect when the time comes, thus the gospel:

1. Imperfect people cannot live peacefully in a perfect place.

2. Christ died and rose, the perfect to substitute for the imperfect.

3. Trust Jesus, who died and rose to pay for our guilt, our sin, our shame, our imperfection.

A Christian who went to Heaven today would ruin the place! But a person made morally perfect at the Rapture transformation, won't.

In the New Testament already many are called blameless,   (even in the OT the ekklesia of YHVH "must be holy, for YHVH is holy" ....

also written of EKKLESIA (born again by the will of the Father in heaven) , LIVING IN UNION (as ONE) with JESUS and the FATHER DAILY,

with continual peace , joy and righteousness .....  as confirmed and written in OT and NT ,  over and over ....

Jesus did not tell the Apostles and the disciples to eventually be perfect, did He ?  Just as He and they did not tell to be saved eventually,  but to turn to YHVH and be immersed in Jesus' Name for forgiveness of sin and to receive eternal life.

Same  He said it directly to them "you must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" (look through Scripture for the MEANING of "PERFECT" as it is different in Scripture in english than it is in LIFE and in Scripture in Hebrew) ,  and then made it so / showed them how/  it was as JESUS SAYS accomplished by the Father in heaven in them as they TRUSTED THE FATHER,  even for their salvation during their life on earth and in the life to come - the HEAVENLY FATHER ACCOMPLISHED THIS,  by HIS PURPOSE and WILL and DOING it in JESUS, for ALL THE EKKLESIA (all the born again ones).

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On 2/18/2018 at 4:13 PM, brakelite said:

Good fruit is good character.

Yes,  also.   It refers to good (truthful ) teaching also.  Much of the practices and the teachings for the last 20 years, 200 years and 2000 years are not good nor true,  thus the teaches are bad fruit.

Bad character produces bad fruit - bad teachings like a catch-22 - ,  bad teachings are believed, thus producing bad character (bad company corrupts good morals) ,  and bad characters continue the bad teachings to others as well.

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28 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

In the New Testament already many are called blameless,   (even in the OT the ekklesia of YHVH "must be holy, for YHVH is holy" ....

also written of EKKLESIA (born again by the will of the Father in heaven) , LIVING IN UNION (as ONE) with JESUS and the FATHER DAILY,

with continual peace , joy and righteousness .....  as confirmed and written in OT and NT ,  over and over ....

Jesus did not tell the Apostles and the disciples to eventually be perfect, did He ?  Just as He and they did not tell to be saved eventually,  but to turn to YHVH and be immersed in Jesus' Name for forgiveness of sin and to receive eternal life.

Same  He said it directly to them "you must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" (look through Scripture for the MEANING of "PERFECT" as it is different in Scripture in english than it is in LIFE and in Scripture in Hebrew) ,  and then made it so / showed them how/  it was as JESUS SAYS accomplished by the Father in heaven in them as they TRUSTED THE FATHER,  even for their salvation during their life on earth and in the life to come - the HEAVENLY FATHER ACCOMPLISHED THIS,  by HIS PURPOSE and WILL and DOING it in JESUS, for ALL THE EKKLESIA (all the born again ones).

Yes, thank you for your comments.

The moment we trust Jesus for salvation we ARE perfect as you wrote. However, I have a propensity, still, to sin against conscience. I will be transformed to behave perfectly morally when I am translated...

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A rosebud can be perfect, though not yet fully grown. A bloom is also perfect...not more perfect, nor the bud less perfect, just different. Christians are perfect because they are in Christ, Who is perfect. Sinless perfection whilst in these mortal fleshly bodies is not possible, yet in a sense, we can cease from sin in this life if we have faith in the God who can make all things possible. Ceasing from sin is not akin to sinless perfection. 

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Agreed, although a rose is amoral and only perfectly moral persons can thrive inside a utopia.

And yes, Christians need not live in abiding sin, but they will sin until they are translated and enhanced!

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Some may struggle for years with certain problems. They may pray for forgiveness daily but deliverance fails them. I was one of these. If it were not for grace we would have no Hope. Today I have been set free even though temptations always lurks at times. Thank God for His Mercy, patients perseverance, and long suffering, My heart always yearned for God. I love the Lord with a clean heart.  

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On 6/5/2012 at 11:43 PM, pecanpie said:

Perfection in the Biblical sense will not happen until we are fully transformed.

We can see perfect if we fulfill the requirements below:

  • Gal 5:16,17 -> "I say, then, Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. And these are contrary to one another; lest whatever you may will, these things you do. "
  • Col 2:10  -> "And you are complete in Him, who is the Head of all principality and power,"
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