Could you vote for a Mormon in the Whitehouse?

[~candice~]

Anita, i was kidding when i said that I knew everything, okay? I don't see why you cant recognize a joke from seriousness. I am probably leAving this website forever in a few days, and thAts why I probably won't respond again. But that was the worst insult i have ever heard. Saying that to an agnostic is a lie. You know what, fine. Indent believe that Jesus rose from the dead and was crucified anymore. I did fpr a few days until I realized how closedminded Christians are. Enjoy your victory in this debate.

I am saddened by this, though I am not surprised.

Justin, we've been through 1 Cor 15 together, and I showed you why the death and resurrection of Jesus is the central thrust of Christianity around which everything stands or falls. Without the resurrection, Paul says "we are of all people most to be pitied" and "¹⁴ And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" . With the resurrection, Paul says "²² For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive".

There is something unchangable in Christian theology, and that is the literal (bodily) death and resurrection of Jesus Christ the Saviour. Without it, it isn't Christianity. Everything in the bible from Genesis 1 has been building up to this great event where the Saviour of the world is revealed. Our choice is to believe it or not, but we don't have the option of removing the central thrust from the claim.

Gnosticism, or the belief that Jesus only rose spiritually, is very easily dismissed by proper bible study, and directly spoken against by the Apostle Paul. The gospel demands an answer, but it demands an answer on it's own merit, the question it is asking demands proper study, and the answer is never found by changing the claim to something more palatable to us.

I realise you say you are leaving. OK. I want you to leave with something. I understand that by your own admission, you are not a Christian. When I was your age I wasn't either. But later on in life, as the Holy Spirit began to chip chip chip away at the heart of stone, many things that were said earlier in my life were brought to the front of my memory, and He used them to convict me and draw me.

The bible calls you a sinner, dead in your sins, with no hope of redemption outside of the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ. His death, standing in our place, is the most amazing display of love ever seen in this universe, and it was planned from before all time by God. When you truly believe in Him, your sins are washed from you, you are as white as snow, and you have imputed righteousness so that you can stand holy before God, and inherit eternal life. That is the gospel in a nutshell.

Following Jesus has never been something I have regretted. It has been challenging though... times of doubt, times of very strong conviction, times where I struggled to feel that intimacy with God. But it has always been worth it and now I honestly believe I could not have a fulfilling life without this relationship with God. I pray you come to have one of those relationships with God too.

Justin, for us it has never been about winning the debate, there are greater things at stake here. Like your eternal destiny! I pray in the future, the Lord convicts you and draws you, and you spend time searching the bible for the true nature of God and the truth of the gospel.

God bless,

Candice

[ayin jade]

I sincerely hope you take what candice has said to heart justinian.

[oldzimm]

Well after catching up on the post in this tread, I see once again that Freemasons have had some stones thrown at them. I knew it was going to happen, I was just waiting for the first stone to be picked up and thrown. Without reinventing the wheel, I will just post copies of the PM's I sent Ayin Jade. I hope this is okay with you Ayin, if not I sincerely ask for your forgiveness.

Thanks for the information.

What I'm about to tell you is not a myth about Freemasons. Freemasonry as a whole is not a religious organization to any one faith. In our lodge we have the Holy Bible present at all meetings, because we are a lodge of Christians, we pray to God when we open a meeting and we pray to God when we close. There is no sermons on worshiping anything that anybody can accuse masons of worshiping. Matter of fact, besides the two prayers at our meetings (which many civic organizations do) there is nothing close to being considered worshiping.

Anybody that believes in a higher power (God) can apply to be a Mason. Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims and even Mormons can be a Mason, but one person that can't be a a mason is a atheist. (they don't believe in God?)

Are Masons going to hell? The answer- Yes, any mason that doesn't accept Jesus as his lord and Savior by God's law, is going to hell (not my judgement, but God's). Then don't we all know people that if they don't accept Christ, they are going to Hell?

The secrecy of Freemasons- Most people conjure up myths of Freemasons because of fear, in the minds of some people secrecy breeds fear. Freemasons aren't really that secret, I'm seen mock meetings of Freemasons posted on the web and on TV that nearly come close to an actual meeting ceremony.

Why are there secrets in freemasonry? Answer- Mainly two reasons-

1. Masons provide help to those in need and we don't want it to seem that we are boasting about it when we do. (Were not Hollywood)

2. We want to protect the people we help from any embarrassment they may have by accepting help. (there are still people like that out there)

Oh the evil 33rd degree- I had the privilege to know two 33rd degree masons (33rd's are few and far between) and both of them are good Christian men of good character and for anyone to call them evil, I will take that as a personal insult due to the great respect I have for them.

Brother in Christ

William L. Zimmerman

Freemasonry worships Lucifer, according to their own writings. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Joseph Smith was a Freemason. The ceremonies in the Mormon Temple are based on Freemasonry. Fact, not myth.

I refer this back to my PM to Ayin.

Maybe I should ask you that question, I'm a Freemason a Christian and over the past twenty five years I been to many lodge meetings. How many lodge meetings have you been to?

Fact or myth, hmmm I don't know, I never been to a Mormon Church, like you probably never been to a Masonic lodge meeting. So since I never was to a Mormon Church, I can't possibly give you a answer of yes or no. I will add this PM I sent to Ayin jade, that covers your statement.

Could Mormons use any details of Freemasonry? I suppose so, it is a free country, but they better be careful on how detailed they are, they could possibly face a lawsuit.

Mormons as individuals can be members of Freemasonry, but in no way is Freemasons as an organization associated with the Mormon faith.

If a Mason who is a Mormon or any other Religion visits our lodge (which they can), we would not take our Holy Bible out of the meeting room. It hasn't happen yet that I know of but if were to happen and when we pray, they would have bite their lip and accept it.

When their is lodge meeting or Masonic event, Masons must leave their differences outside the door. The lodge is a place where men are to meet in peace and enjoy the meeting. The meeting is usually degree work and sometimes there is a program of almost anything, as an example I remember one time when the local police department brought one of their dogs in and gave demonstrations with the dog, it was interesting.

William L. Zimmerman

We went over all this a year or two ago and there is no sense in debating the subject of Freemasonry because nobody's mind will be changed. Some of you will still think that a Mason is the boogyman and some of us will know the truth.

Again sorry Ayin Jade if you are offened by me posting these PM's, forgive me.

[oldzimm]

No. It was not my idea from the start. My idea was to learn. We learn by questioning.

You don't question. That is not what you do. You bait. You toss a 'question' out with the thought in the back of your mind that you already know the answer and you are going to ridicule if someone doesn't give you the 'right' answer or argue indefinitely if you don't like the answer you are given. You are not teachable, at all. When it is displayed to you that you do not know what you say you know, such as this thread where you emphatically said you know what Mormons believe and then later said you have to email a Mormon for simple, basic questions about them, you prove that you do not know what you say you know. And even in that scenario, you argue and say everyone else is wrong but you. I have literal, on-the-ground experience with of all types Mormons over years, and you have a Mormon Youth Leader who is a "friend." Who has more experience and knowledge?

You said you do not question your teachers at school. I am doubting the sincerity of that statement, but even if is is true, what do you think gives you the right to come here and treat us with such contempt when you do not treat them in that fashion? If your attitude does not change monumentally, you are going to be one of those people that society is already filled with. You will get a job and every time you are given instructions on what to do you will question them instead of simply working. You will either repeatedly quit or repeatedly get fired and then ask yourself why no one wants anything to do with you and why you can't hold a job. Good luck with all that.

Justinian, Cobalt is making some very good points, specially about somebody questioning their boss (bad idea). Never go overboard in asking your boss question, unless he/she says "Do you have any questions or do you understand". If a boss doesn't ask them questions, that shows poor leadership skills on their part.

[oldzimm]

Yeah, we've been over it, and you still don't get it. Christianity and Freemasonry are incompatible. What degree are you? Because if you are in the basement, they are not telling you what they believe or what they are teaching you in little chunks as you go up in degrees. Why do you think it is a secret society? God condemns secret societies. Why do you think that is and why do you think that you are exempt from that and no harm will befall you by thumbing your nose at one of God's directives?

In all due respect are you sure it is me that is not getting it? Maybe the shoe should be on the other foot.

I also get it quite well.

Colossians 2:16-17

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

[taylor30]

A MormN believes In Jesus's teachings.

That is not entirely accurate. Mormons teach a different jesus. They teach in 7 different heavens and 3 different hells. They teach people are little gods, that Jesus is a created being, that God revealed the true religion to a teenage kid, that God used to be a man who lived on another planet, that America is where the New Jerusalem will be. They even wrote 2 additional books they think are superior to the Bible, and they think the Bible is full of error. Mormons are nice people, however their beliefs are so far different from what scripture teaches, they are not Christians.

[oldzimm]

In all due respect are you sure it is me that is not getting it? Maybe the shoe should be on the other foot.

I also get it quite well.

Colossians 2:16-17

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Not really an appropriate verse. No one is judging you, I am simply telling you: You do not fully understand what you are involved in. If you did, as a Christian, you wouldn't be in it.

Oh but the verse is very much appropriate, you are judging Masons by old wives tales about the boogyman and what really brought this verse to my attention was not the part about being judged Per se, it was "New Moon celebration". I don't know how other lodges choose their meeting dates, but our lodge has its meetings the first Monday before a new moon, easy way to remember the meetings.

Since I'm the boogyman, all I can say is Boo.

[other one]

:taped:

[other one]

Oh but the verse is very much appropriate, you are judging Masons by old wives tales about the boogyman and what really brought this verse to my attention was not the part about being judged Per se, it was "New Moon celebration". I don't know how other lodges choose their meeting dates, but our lodge has its meetings the first Monday before a new moon, easy way to remember the meetings.

Since I'm the boogyman, all I can say is Boo.

Have you ever bothered to read what Albert Pike and others wrote about Freemasonry? Pike should know what they believed since he was a 32nd degree holder and was the Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite's Southern Jurisdiction until he died. If he did not know what Freemason's believe, who does?

I do not believe you to be a "boogeyman." I noticed you never answered what degree you are.

actually Cobalt, if Oldzim has never been asked into the esoteric side of the Masonic order it may speak well of his character.

[other one]

actually Cobalt, if Oldzim has never been asked into the esoteric side of the Masonic order it may speak well of his character.

Ok. We are horribly derailing the thread anyway!

LoL, I don't think I've ever seen a thread on here that went 150 posts that stayed on subject... It's not in our nature..... and from my perspective is a good thing.