Saved and Stumbling?

[GlidingWings]

If a person is baptized and saved we may assume there name could possibly be

in the Book of Life. Why then would God allow this very same person who was saved to stumble into sin so greatly that they parted from the faith?

Wouldn't God keep trying to keep this person as a believer and not to lose their salvation from their complete departure?

[JohnnyIMdoc]

If a person is baptized and saved we may assume there name could possibly be

in the Book of Life. Why then would God allow this very same person who was saved to stumble into sin so greatly that they parted from the faith?

Wouldn't God keep trying to keep this person as a believer and not to lose their salvation from their complete departure?

I personally do not believe ANYONE who claims they don't have troubles sinning over and over. I think we'll continue to sin until we die and receive our new bodies

that aren't cursed by sin. Paul, the greatest man of the new testament other than Jesus, said flat out that he couldn't stop sinning... he couldn't do the things he wanted to do...

and couldn't stop doing the things he hated doing.

Wretched man that I am! Who will save me from thing body of death? Rom 7:15-25

It's a thing I struggle with also...questions abound in my mind.

[OneLight]

That goes back to the question if we are a puppet or not. God will not force Himself on anyone, or force them to continue their walk in Him. His love is pure love, which allows people to make mistakes. He will, though, continue to convict the sinner of their sins through His Holy Spirit. It is up to us to receive the rebuke and repent, just like it is to accept Christ and repent.

[He giveth more grace]

Hi, BeartheCross, I have been saved for 36 years and it has been a struggle every day.

[gdemoss]

I came to believe in God in 2002. I came to believe that that God was the God of the bible in 2008. I first believed that I would sin everyday in some way shape or form and once again need the grace of God to cover my sin. At some point I received a spirit that indwells me that pushes me everyday to be just like Christ in all that I do. I began to 'hear' (not audible but spiritual ears) this spirit about a year ago and he has been teaching me scripture since. I have become bold in proclaiming that as Christians we do not have to sin, it is an option but not a reality for all. I say this having my last sin being last Sunday where I was deceptive out of a knee jerk reaction to fear. I have asked the one I sinned against to forgive me and have learned from the experience.

Many view Romans 7 as Paul admitting to sinning on a regular basis and I understand why they would see it as such. I have been taught different. Paul began speaking about the flesh in Chapter 4 and continued the thought through Chapter 7, concluding that what is determined about the flesh is that through the flesh man has no power over sin, because sin is in the flesh. Chapter 8 addresses how to have victory over sin daily through living in the spirit of Christ. Although we are still in the flesh we need not 'live' by it but rather the 'spirit', our spirit as it is strengthened by the Holy Spirit who indwells and shares this flesh with us.

For those who consider Paul as one who admitted to sinning daily, I have also seen where Paul asks in Romans where those he wrote to had any fruit in those things (the sin) that they are now ashamed. The bible says that those who believe in Christ will not be ashamed. Paul said that it was his earnest expectation that in nothing he would be ashamed. Paul had no faith in his flesh but simply put on Christ and walked in the spirit not giving in to the flesh and letting sin rule over him. Paul is the one who said "awaken to righteousness and sin not".

Since I have learned these things and have employed them in my life, I have gone from being left alone and accepted by everyone to being hated by most, constantly accused of being prideful and self-righteous. Persecution comes from those who are not circumcised in heart to those who are. Present your bodies as a living sacrifice which is your reasonable service. If we serve God we cannot serve sin as nobody can serve two masters. But take heart brothers, you can still fall into sin. That is quite different from wallowing in it on purpose though. You know in your heart which is which. Let not sin reign in your mortal bodies, you have a choice and power. Let us do as Peter said and add all of those things to our faith that we never fall...

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[nebula]

If a person is baptized and saved we may assume there name could possibly be in the Book of Life. Why then would God allow this very same person who was saved to stumble into sin so greatly that they parted from the faith?

Wouldn't God keep trying to keep this person as a believer and not to lose their salvation from their complete departure?

Many times in the Bible, the people of God as individuals and as groups are tested to perfect their faith. Some pass (i.e. Abraham) and some fail (i.e. the children of Israel in the Wilderness).

For reasons that are hard to understand, the Lord takes great risks to weed out those whose hearts are completely devoted to Him and those who are not.

That's all I know.

[Botz]

I came to believe in God in 2002. I came to believe that that God was the God of the bible in 2008. I first believed that I would sin everyday in some way shape or form and once again need the grace of God to cover my sin. At some point I received a spirit that indwells me that pushes me everyday to be just like Christ in all that I do. I began to 'hear' (not audible but spiritual ears) this spirit about a year ago and he has been teaching me scripture since. I have become bold in proclaiming that as Christians we do not have to sin, it is an option but not a reality for all. I say this having my last sin being last Sunday where I was deceptive out of a knee jerk reaction to fear. I have asked the one I sinned against to forgive me and have learned from the experience.

Many view Romans 7 as Paul admitting to sinning on a regular basis and I understand why they would see it as such. I have been taught different. Paul began speaking about the flesh in Chapter 4 and continued the thought through Chapter 7, concluding that what is determined about the flesh is that through the flesh man has no power over sin, because sin is in the flesh. Chapter 8 addresses how to have victory over sin daily through living in the spirit of Christ. Although we are still in the flesh we need not 'live' by it but rather the 'spirit', our spirit as it is strengthened by the Holy Spirit who indwells and shares this flesh with us.

For those who consider Paul as one who admitted to sinning daily, I have also seen where Paul asks in Romans where those he wrote to had any fruit in those things (the sin) that they are now ashamed. The bible says that those who believe in Christ will not be ashamed. Paul said that it was his earnest expectation that in nothing he would be ashamed. Paul had no faith in his flesh but simply put on Christ and walked in the spirit not giving in to the flesh and letting sin rule over him. Paul is the one who said "awaken to righteousness and sin not".

Since I have learned these things and have employed them in my life, I have gone from being left alone and accepted by everyone to being hated by most, constantly accused of being prideful and self-righteous. Persecution comes from those who are not circumcised in heart to those who are. Present your bodies as a living sacrifice which is your reasonable service. If we serve God we cannot serve sin as nobody can serve two masters. But take heart brothers, you can still fall into sin. That is quite different from wallowing in it on purpose though. You know in your heart which is which. Let not sin reign in your mortal bodies, you have a choice and power. Let us do as Peter said and add all of those things to our faith that we never fall...

In Jesus Name,

Gary

I like what you attempt to convey gdemoss,

I think Paul was emphasizing that there was no good thing that dwelt in his flesh...like you I don't believe he was saying we can't help sinning, rather that as long as we dwell in these earthen vessels

sin will be a constant companion...until the redemption of our bodies. That was the reality.

For all of us, everyday is a battleground and supplies the potential for victory or defeat...a person who has besetting sins can be encouraged to persevere in G-d and learn to be an overcomer...not in

their own strength, but through the grace of G-d...we can do all things through Jesus, and we are more than conquerers through Him. Some need to rise up and get with the program, or as Paul puts it:-

1Cor 16:13 Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. 14 Let all that you do be done in love.

One can become accustomed to sinning in certain areas, and justify ones weaknesses/excesses so much so that ones hearing (of the Spirit) becomes dull...rather than make excuses we need to line

ourselves up with the word of G-d, and be changed and renewed....Paul pummelled his body into shape, and would not allow it to dictate to him, he also recognised the power of G-d so evident

when he was at his weakest.

Much of the problem with many of us is that we can see certain truths, get enthused with them, rejoice about the revelation, but never fully grasp them or implement them in our lives....I don't think

any of us are immune from this sort of weakness...what comes easier to one person might be very difficult for another and vice versa.

1Peter 1:13Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”

[Waiting2BwithHim]

I was thinking about this for awhile and the only thing I could come up with is if God didn't let us stumble and make mistakes when we do get home to him if we were perfect because of him what would he have to judge us on?

He would has to let us make decisions whether to do right or wrong.

Satan needs to stick his nose in where it doesn't belong to tempt us like he did Jesus. Jesus of course always did the right thing and that's why he is perfect while as humans there is none perfect and will always be making mistakes.

The question is what mistakes are we going to be tempted with and will we be overcome with such a temptation that we will fail or will we succeed?

[childeye]

If a person is baptized and saved we may assume there name could possibly be

in the Book of Life. Why then would God allow this very same person who was saved to stumble into sin so greatly that they parted from the faith?

Wouldn't God keep trying to keep this person as a believer and not to lose their salvation from their complete departure?

There is a false premise here I would like to address. One does not stumble into sin so as to depart from the faith when the faith is that we all will be saved by mercy because we all have been sinners. Rather we should forgive sin so as to be forgiven. Give charity out of a pure compassion for the needs of others, for one act of love covers a multitude of sins. Moreover people don't stumble because of sin but because of pride. The lust of the flesh is the consequence of vanity. When you say "believer", what exactly are you believing in?

Every sin is founded upon a lie and so does every lust of the flesh contain a false promise. These things must be learned through the help of the Holy Spirit. That's why Jesus taught that the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin.

[gdemoss]

I came to believe in God in 2002. I came to believe that that God was the God of the bible in 2008. I first believed that I would sin everyday in some way shape or form and once again need the grace of God to cover my sin. At some point I received a spirit that indwells me that pushes me everyday to be just like Christ in all that I do. I began to 'hear' (not audible but spiritual ears) this spirit about a year ago and he has been teaching me scripture since. I have become bold in proclaiming that as Christians we do not have to sin, it is an option but not a reality for all. I say this having my last sin being last Sunday where I was deceptive out of a knee jerk reaction to fear. I have asked the one I sinned against to forgive me and have learned from the experience.

Many view Romans 7 as Paul admitting to sinning on a regular basis and I understand why they would see it as such. I have been taught different. Paul began speaking about the flesh in Chapter 4 and continued the thought through Chapter 7, concluding that what is determined about the flesh is that through the flesh man has no power over sin, because sin is in the flesh. Chapter 8 addresses how to have victory over sin daily through living in the spirit of Christ. Although we are still in the flesh we need not 'live' by it but rather the 'spirit', our spirit as it is strengthened by the Holy Spirit who indwells and shares this flesh with us.

For those who consider Paul as one who admitted to sinning daily, I have also seen where Paul asks in Romans where those he wrote to had any fruit in those things (the sin) that they are now ashamed. The bible says that those who believe in Christ will not be ashamed. Paul said that it was his earnest expectation that in nothing he would be ashamed. Paul had no faith in his flesh but simply put on Christ and walked in the spirit not giving in to the flesh and letting sin rule over him. Paul is the one who said "awaken to righteousness and sin not".

Since I have learned these things and have employed them in my life, I have gone from being left alone and accepted by everyone to being hated by most, constantly accused of being prideful and self-righteous. Persecution comes from those who are not circumcised in heart to those who are. Present your bodies as a living sacrifice which is your reasonable service. If we serve God we cannot serve sin as nobody can serve two masters. But take heart brothers, you can still fall into sin. That is quite different from wallowing in it on purpose though. You know in your heart which is which. Let not sin reign in your mortal bodies, you have a choice and power. Let us do as Peter said and add all of those things to our faith that we never fall...

In Jesus Name,

Gary

I like what you attempt to convey gdemoss,

I think Paul was emphasizing that there was no good thing that dwelt in his flesh...like you I don't believe he was saying we can't help sinning, rather that as long as we dwell in these earthen vessels

sin will be a constant companion...until the redemption of our bodies. That was the reality.

For all of us, everyday is a battleground and supplies the potential for victory or defeat...a person who has besetting sins can be encouraged to persevere in G-d and learn to be an overcomer...not in

their own strength, but through the grace of G-d...we can do all things through Jesus, and we are more than conquerers through Him. Some need to rise up and get with the program, or as Paul puts it:-

1Cor 16:13 Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. 14 Let all that you do be done in love.

One can become accustomed to sinning in certain areas, and justify ones weaknesses/excesses so much so that ones hearing (of the Spirit) becomes dull...rather than make excuses we need to line

ourselves up with the word of G-d, and be changed and renewed....Paul pummelled his body into shape, and would not allow it to dictate to him, he also recognised the power of G-d so evident

when he was at his weakest.

Much of the problem with many of us is that we can see certain truths, get enthused with them, rejoice about the revelation, but never fully grasp them or implement them in our lives....I don't think

any of us are immune from this sort of weakness...what comes easier to one person might be very difficult for another and vice versa.

1Peter 1:13Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”

You and I are very close in our take on this. Yet when I first became a believer I was covered over in sin, draped upon me like a blanket. Over time, my sins became much less frequent as I read, read and read some more, being sanctified in his truth. There are scriptures that startle me when I read them, like the ones in 1 John that talk about not being able to sin at all. I have read all the commontaries and opinions from trusted brothers, yet I will not do as they have done and explain them away, but believe rather that maybe God has made it possible for me to walk without sin everyday in this life, but I have just not grown to that place yet. I am still holding out hope that the scriptures that say I can be just like him in this life will manifest in my life.

May God bring us all to the point of such victory over sin that sins body be destroyed and only the pure body of Christ be seen,

Gary