Did Jesus pay for ALL sin (past, present, and future sin)?

[allofgrace]

Anyway, I am just pointing out, that from the provided scriptures we know that it is possible to fall away from the Truth, once coming to the Knowledge of it... and it is also possible to not be forgiven if one doesn't repent. Present and future sins forgiveness are conditional.

To each their own but ones personal opinions do not overrule scripture for many believers. I agree with Paul in 1 Tim 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. Phil 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. I can read these verses as written and believe they are true without exception to those trusting in Christ, others cannot believe them as written because their assurance is not in trusting the word of God but their believing that those who fall away were ever saved in the first place. God forgives all sins of the believer and seals them with His Spirit unto the day of redemption, I believe as He says, He looks at the heart and knows the hearts of all men. We must agree to disagree.

[JohnD]

1 John 2:1-2 (NASB95)

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

My little children,

...written to believers

I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.

...the divine intent

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

...practical application of fallen mankind with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

...the vastness of this account Christ created for mankind opens the availability of forgiveness to all

But only those who receive it (accept it) will be saved.

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB95)

10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

The Savior of all men (potential) especially (or particularly) those who believe (actual).

Once saved... you cannot sin your way out of salvation:

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NASB95)

5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

...you cannot be taken from Jesus:

John 10:27-29 (NASB95)

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

...you will not walk away:

Jeremiah 32:40 (NASB95)

40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

In fact, if you could do these things, it proves you were never saved in the first place:

1 John 2:19 (NASB95)

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

The real question is... Are you TRULY saved?

What does this mean?

Heb 6:4-8 NASB

(4) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

(5) and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

(6) and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

(7) For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;

(8) but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Zoom in on the word "tasted" (geuomai in Greek) is the same word for Jesus tasting the gall on a sponge that was offered him on the cross with a stick.

Matthew 27:34 (KJV)

34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

The passage in Hebrews refers to those who never drank of the Holy Spirit but only tasted. In other passages the Lord Jesus referred to those whose seed fell on rocky soil etc and did not grow root.

Bottom line... these were never saved to begin with.

[JohnD]

Hebrews 6:4-8 speaking about a person who was really saved... you can't be really saved and have been made partaker with the Holy Spirit.

The point is, it is possible to fall out of salvation according to this verse. It is an absolute possibility. Now God loves His children and will extend to them what He sees fit... and he may pardon whom ever He wants to. But we have a clear and concise set of guidelines to follow... And we have to remember, that the Law of the Spirit is not just a bunch or rules and guidelines that are given to us for the sake of restrictions... they are there for our own good too. God set forth an order in the beginning of time... and these commandments are there to protect us from the effects of His Justice.

No-one outside of yourself can take you away from Jesus.

Nope.

As I just explained, Hebrews 6 was only a taster not one who drank deeply... they were never saved.

[JohnD]

...you will not walk away:

Jeremiah 32:40 (NASB95)

40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

interesting verse. God has done this for me. Praise his name. The fear of the Lord is clean. I love it.

Wonderful.

[JohnD]

What I am hearing from some Christians is that "Jesus paid for all sins, unrepentant and repentant alike, past, present and future. I actually know Christians professing this. I don't read anywhere in the bible that unrepentant sin is forgiven.

He paid for them all with His death and resurrection, but they are not applied to the sin until true repentance is sought and applied. Those who believe in Universalism believe that everyone will be forgiven despite what they seek or who they follow. This is false teaching and should be avoided at all cost.

Actually, I know Christians who believe that once we become a believer, get baptized, and acknowledge what Christ did for us then unrepentant sin and repentant sin are irrelevant. It's covered... they don't believe everyone is saved just those who believe. I am in no position to say whether or not they are on their way to hell, but I do believe they have been deceived.

Only a fool thinks God will not punish sinners. He will not allow us to lose our salvation, but we can and will be taken to the wood shed... even worse if need be.

1 Corinthians 11:32 (KJV)

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Hebrews 12:5-11 (KJV)

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

And as I already quoted:

1 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV)

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

[JohnD]

The passages that seem to say one can lose or walk away from salvation must be tempered with the passages that indicate once one is truly saved they are saved forever... not the other way around.

Humanity is lost and the Good News is about salvation. Not humanity is saved but in peril of being lost. Lost is the condition we were born with and destined for (without faith in Christ). Not the other way around.

We shouldn't forget that.

[Spirit_Tracker]

I agree with Albert Barnes notes on Hebrew 6:4

Hebrews 6:4

"For it is impossible - It is needless to say that the passage here Heb_6:4-6, has given occasion to much controversy, and that the opinions of commentators and of the Christian world are yet greatly divided in regard to its meaning. On the one hand, it is held that the passage is not intended to describe those who are true Christians, but only those who have been awakened and enlightened, and who then fall back; and on the other it is maintained that it refers to those who are true Christians, and who then apostatize. The contending parties have been Calvinists and Arminians; each party, in general, interpreting it according to the views which are held on the question about falling from grace. I shall endeavor, as well as I may be able, to state the true meaning of the passage by an examination of the words and phrases in detail, observing here, in general, that it seems to me that it refers to true Christians; that the object is to keep them from apostasy, and that it teaches that if they should apostatize, it would be impossible to renew them again or to save them. That it refers to true Christians will be apparent from these considerations.

(1) Such is the sense which would strike the great mass of readers. Unless there were some theory to defend, the great body of readers of the New Testament would consider the expression used here as describing true Christians.

(2) The connection demands such an interpretation. The apostle was addressing Christians. He was endeavoring to keep them from apostasy. The object was not to keep those who were awakened and enlightened from apostasy, but it was to preserve those who were already in the Church of Christ, from going back to perdition. The kind of exhortation appropriate to those who were awakened and convicted, but who were not truly converted, would be “to become converted;” not to warn them of the danger of “falling away.” Besides, the apostle would not have said of such persons that they could not be converted and saved. But of sincere Christians it might be said with the utmost propriety, that they could not be renewed again and be saved if they should fall away - because they rejected the only plan of salvation after they had tried it, and renounced the only scheme of redemption after they had tasted its benefits. If that plan could not save them, what could? If they neglected that, by what other means could they be brought to God?

(3) This interpretation accords, as I suppose, with the exact meaning of the phrases which the apostle uses. An examination of those phrases will show that he refers to those who are sincere believers. The phrase “it is impossible” obviously and properly denotes absolute impossibility. It has been contended, by Storr and others, that it denotes only great difficulty. But the meaning which would at first strike all readers would be that “the thing could not be done;” that it was not merely very difficult, but absolutely impracticable. The word - a̓δύνaτον adunaton - occurs only in the New Testament in the following places, in all which it denotes that the thing could not be done; Mat_19:26; Mar_10:27, “With men this is impossible;” that is, men could not save one who was rich, implying that the thing was wholly beyond human power. Luk_18:27, “the things which are impossible with men are possible with God” - referring to the same case; Act_14:8, “A man of Lystra, impotent in his feet;” that is, who was wholly “unable” to walk; Rom_8:3, “For what the law could not do;” what was absolutely “impossible” for the Law to accomplish; that is, to save people; Heb_6:18, “In which it was impossible for God to lie;” Heb_10:4, “It is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take away sin;” and Heb_11:6, “Without faith it is impossible to please God;” in all of these instances denoting absolute impossibility.

These passages show that it is not merely a great difficulty to which the apostle refers, but that he meant to say that the thing was wholly impracticable; that it could not be done. And if this be the meaning, then it proves that if those referred to should fall away, they could never be renewed. Their case was hopeless, and they must perish: that is, if a true Christian should apostatize, or fall from grace, “he never could be renewed again,” and could not be saved. Paul did not teach that he might fall away and be renewed again as often as he pleased. He had other views of the grace of God than this; and he meant to teach, that if a man should once cast off true religion, his case was hopeless, and he must perish; and by this solemn consideration - the only one that would be effectual in such a case - he meant to guard them against the danger of apostasy.

For those who were once enlightened - The phrase “to be enlightened” is one that is often used in the Scriptures, and may be applied either to one whose understanding has been enlightened to discern his duty, though he is not converted (compare the note on Joh_1:9); or more commonly to one who is truly converted; see the note on Eph_1:18. It does not of necessity refer to true Christians, though it cannot be denied that it more obviously suggests the idea that the heart is truly changed, and that it is more commonly used in that sense; compare Psa_19:8. Light, in the Scriptures, is the emblem of knowledge, holiness, and happiness, and there is no impropriety here in understanding it in accordance with the more decisive phrases which follow, as referring to true Christians.

And have tasted - To “taste” of a thing means, according to the usage in the Scriptures, to “experience,” or to “understand” it. The expression is derived from the fact that the “taste” is one of the means by which we ascertain the nature or quality of an object; compare Mat_16:28; Joh_8:51; Heb_2:9. The proper idea here is, that they had “experienced” the heavenly gift, or had learned its nature.

The heavenly gift - The gift from heaven, or which pertains to heaven; compare the note on Joh_4:10. The expression properly means some favor or gift which has descended from heaven, and may refer to any of the benefits which God has conferred on man in the work of redemption. It might include the plan of salvation; the forgiveness of sins; the enlightening, renewing, and sanctifying influences of the Holy Spirit, or any one of the graces which that Spirit imparts. The use of the article, however - “the heavenly gift,” limits it to something special, as being conferred directly from heaven, and the connection would seem to demand that we understand it of some “special” favor which could be conferred only on the children of God. It is an expression which “may” be applied to sincere Christians; it is at least doubtful whether it can with propriety be applied to any other.

And were made partakers of the Holy Ghost - Partakers of the influences of the Holy Spirit - for it is only in this sense that we can partake of the Holy Spirit. We “partake” of food when we share it with others; we “partake” of pleasure when we enjoy it with others; we “partake” of spoils in war when they are divided between us and others. So we partake of the influences of the Holy Spirit when we share these influences conferred on his people. This is not language which can properly be applied to anyone but a true Christian; and though it is true that an unpardoned sinner may be enlightened and awakened by the Holy Spirit, yet the language used here is not such as would be likely to be employed to describe his state. It is too clearly expressive of those influences which renew and sanctify the soul. It is as elevated language as can be used to describe the joy of the Christian, and is undoubtedly used in that sense here. If it is not, it would be difficult to find any language which would properly express the condition of a renewed heart. Grotius, Bloomfield, and some others, understood this of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. But this is not necessary, and does not accord well with the general description here, which evidently pertains to the mass of those whom the apostle addressed."

[Spirit_Tracker]

Anyway, I am just pointing out, that from the provided scriptures we know that it is possible to fall away from the Truth, once coming to the Knowledge of it... and it is also possible to not be forgiven if one doesn't repent. Present and future sins forgiveness are conditional.

To each their own but ones personal opinions do not overrule scripture for many believers. I agree with Paul in 1 Tim 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. Phil 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. I can read these verses as written and believe they are true without exception to those trusting in Christ, others cannot believe them as written because their assurance is not in trusting the word of God but their believing that those who fall away were ever saved in the first place. God forgives all sins of the believer and seals them with His Spirit unto the day of redemption, I believe as He says, He looks at the heart and knows the hearts of all men. We must agree to disagree.

As I said, i agree with that for those who remain in Him. Sure, I agree to disagree. Thanks for discussion.

[franciskelsey]

Forgive me. For I have not dived into this thread much to say the least, but a question for those who believe Hebrews was not talking about the 'saved'. Were the following people saved:

2 Corinthians 13:5 Can we fail the test?

1 Timothy 1:19-20 Hymenaeus and Alexander -- shipwrecked?

2 Timothy 1:14 all in Asia

James 5:19-20 brethren straying from the truth?

2 Peter 2:14-15; 20-22 the righteous returning to their vomit?

3 John 9-10

[Guest HisG]

I'm late in this thread I know...

But....

If I love the Lord and I want to please Him, why would I continue in sin if I knew it displeases Him and grieves the Holy Spirit?

That makes no sense.

Abusing the love of Christ/God is at odds with loving Him and wanting to please Him.