speaking in tounges

[webb]

Hi Firestormx, this response is to yours # 458. My understanding (and Revelation is most difficult, do you agree?) is that the 2 witnesses comprise the old and new testaments, in other words, the Bible, the scriptres, which are now complete.

You said this (Rev.11) occures at the "end". I have not found that in the context, however, from Pentecost on to now and continuing to the 2nd coming I understand we are in the last days. Note please that the 2 are called "witnesses", and the function of a witness is to testify, and Rev.11:7 reads: "And when they shall have FINISHED ( emp. mine, webb) their testimony,--." The old and new testaments had both witnesses and prophets. AND, Rev.11:7 clearly reads: "And when they shall have finished their testimony", the completed word of God, the "perfect" (note the lower-case p).

Blessing

[firestormx]

Hi Firestormx, this response is to yours # 458. My understanding (and Revelation is most difficult, do you agree?) is that the 2 witnesses comprise the old and new testaments, in other words, the Bible, the scriptres, which are now complete.

You said this (Rev.11) occures at the "end". I have not found that in the context, however, from Pentecost on to now and continuing to the 2nd coming I understand we are in the last days. Note please that the 2 are called "witnesses", and the function of a witness is to testify, and Rev.11:7 reads: "And when they shall have FINISHED ( emp. mine, webb) their testimony,--." The old and new testaments had both witnesses and prophets. AND, Rev.11:7 clearly reads: "And when they shall have finished their testimony", the completed word of God, the "perfect" (note the lower-case p).

Blessing

First, I don't think I understand your response. Please speak plainly. But let me clarify. I meant when I said the end, simply that they were going to be sent by God to minister at some point during the events of revelation, which as of this time have not happened and precced the 2nd coming of Christ.

Now, are you saying that the 2 witnesses complete the word of God? Or are you saying they are the word of God. Because the part you left off was where the 2 witnesses get overcome and killed. Might I suggest a word study of the langusge used in this verse. In the greek it is clear there ministry ( which is 3 and a half years long) is prophesing or prohecy. The verse is clear that the gifts are still in operation at that time, which is yet to come. Would you mind explaining your thoughts a little plainer and simplier for me. Thank You

Firestormx

Joseph

[AlexanderJ]

My suggestion is that you calm down, take a deep breath, and come up with a scriptural argument to support your views.

[allofgrace]

You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit is come on you and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the uttermost parts of the earth. Tongues happened at Pentecost, in Acts to show that Gentiles had been given the same gift as the Jews at Cornelius house and in chapter 19 in Ephesus. It is not mentioned again in the book of Acts and only in the letter to the Corinthians.

Yep, Jesus even uses the w-word (witness) to explain the blatant act of witnessing at Pentecost, but some here would rather believe that the Apostles were just praying in languages that randomly just happened to be the same as the language of the unbelievers around them. And, then they chant that I'm ignorant.

At Cornelius's house, tongues worked as a sign for Peter.

if only some have been given this spiritual gift by the Holy Spirit who distributes them individually as He wills(1Cor12:11) would that mean that only some would enjoy this prayer language? Don't say they got it by faith, because the text says the Holy Spirit distributes gifts individually as He wills, and they are for the building up of the whole body.

Pentecostals don't believe that this "prayer language" is just for some people chosen by the Holy Spirit. They believe it's for everyone who asks. And, they believe that every "spirit filled" believer speaks in tongues at least once.

Jesus said we will receive power to be witnesses after we are filled with the Spirit. He doesn't say we will speak in tongues to be witnesses. Yes, Pentecostals do believe all Spirit filled believers can pray in tongues. They don't believe all Spirit filled believers have the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues. That is what I believe, and you have said nothing to change my mind.

I do not know if you are talking to me or my post was answered by the other poster, but I would like to know where in the scripture that the gift of praying in tongues is said to be for every Spirit filled believer. Mark 16:17-18 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” If this is the passage that you are going to mention, notice it says they will speak with new tongues, not they will pray in a tongue. Notice also it says they will take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing it will not hurt them, do you practice these things also. And it says they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover. Now it doesn't say they may recover but it says the same word will that is mentioned with they will speak with new tongues. So I guess everyone can lay hands on sick who are spirit filled will be doing this also. If that is true how many have you laid hands on the got healed? But of course this may not be your proof text so I will ask that of any of those that have used this passage as their proof to respond. thanks

[gdemoss]

Hi Gdemoss--You wrote: ''WHAT IS PERFECT THAT IS YET TO COME? MATT.6:10 THY KINGDOM COME--" But, sir, the kingdom has come. It came on the day of the first Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus. You may read all about it in Acts 2.

w

Believing such will cause you to have a big surprise come the day the kingdom does come.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Upon fulfillment of this verse, the kingdom will have come. Believe as you will.

[Hall7]

I wonder if speaking in tongues is an actual language. I'm curious to know if the words in tongues would be the same as other messages in tongues. In other words, what if we were to compare English translations to tongue messages and compared the same key words. Would the words be the same or is it always different? For example Would the word "God" in tongues always pronounced the same in tongues?

[Hall7]

I wonder if speaking in tongues is an actual language. I'm curious to know if the words in tongues would be the same as other messages in tongues. In other words, what if we were to compare English translations to tongue messages and compared the same key words. Would the words be the same or is it always different? For example Would the word "God" in tongues always pronounced the same in tongues?

In theory, I suppose you could if you knew what the language was? I mentioned that there was a woman who used to sing in church, and at times she would begin singing in tongues. It was obvious it was a real language, and it was the same words everytime she sang the chorus. I don't know what language it was, but there was a pattern. So long as the language was not an angelic one, and someone were present that understood it, I don't see why not?

So in theory we should be able to learn that language. We'd have to record the messages and the interpretations several times with many messages and then match the Tongue words to English words. It would be neat if it was possible to learn it to be able to pray in tongues.

[allofgrace]

You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit is come on you and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the uttermost parts of the earth. Tongues happened at Pentecost, in Acts to show that Gentiles had been given the same gift as the Jews at Cornelius house and in chapter 19 in Ephesus. It is not mentioned again in the book of Acts and only in the letter to the Corinthians.

Yep, Jesus even uses the w-word (witness) to explain the blatant act of witnessing at Pentecost, but some here would rather believe that the Apostles were just praying in languages that randomly just happened to be the same as the language of the unbelievers around them. And, then they chant that I'm ignorant.

At Cornelius's house, tongues worked as a sign for Peter.

if only some have been given this spiritual gift by the Holy Spirit who distributes them individually as He wills(1Cor12:11) would that mean that only some would enjoy this prayer language? Don't say they got it by faith, because the text says the Holy Spirit distributes gifts individually as He wills, and they are for the building up of the whole body.

Pentecostals don't believe that this "prayer language" is just for some people chosen by the Holy Spirit. They believe it's for everyone who asks. And, they believe that every "spirit filled" believer speaks in tongues at least once.

Jesus said we will receive power to be witnesses after we are filled with the Spirit. He doesn't say we will speak in tongues to be witnesses. Yes, Pentecostals do believe all Spirit filled believers can pray in tongues. They don't believe all Spirit filled believers have the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues. That is what I believe, and you have said nothing to change my mind.

I do not know if you are talking to me or my post was answered by the other poster, but I would like to know where in the scripture that the gift of praying in tongues is said to be for every Spirit filled believer. Mark 16:17-18 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” If this is the passage that you are going to mention, notice it says they will speak with new tongues, not they will pray in a tongue. Notice also it says they will take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing it will not hurt them, do you practice these things also. And it says they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover. Now it doesn't say they may recover but it says the same word will that is mentioned with they will speak with new tongues. So I guess everyone can lay hands on sick who are spirit filled will be doing this also. If that is true how many have you laid hands on the got healed? But of course this may not be your proof text so I will ask that of any of those that have used this passage as their proof to respond. thanks

The Bible doesn't come out and say every Spirit filled believe will speak in tongues, but there is a pattern that starts in Acts chapter 2. You even see Cornelius and his household speaking in tongues after they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is the initial evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.

Your second point is rather silly, and it is the same mistake some snake handling Pentecostals make. Jesus said we were not to tempt God, and picking up poisonous snakes just to prove a point is tempting God. This is only saying that someone with faith can be in a place like Paul was, where a poisonous viper attached itself to him, and he felt no harm. Yes, it does say that if someone has faith, they shall heal the sick. The key is that they have faith, and they don't waiver in that faith. Often times, we do have faith that God may heal the sick, but we doubt. Jesus said in another place that if we have faith, and don't doubt, we can have whatsoever we ask for in prayer. I don't know where you are going with this? Are you disputing what Jesus said? I would also point out that Jesus said this before Pentecost, not after, and it has nothing to do with speaking in tongues. It is totally irrelivant to this discussion.

The theory that you state tongues is a pattern is not written in stone as they say. We do not see any of the 3000 that were saved when Peter preached at Pentecost and it is not mentioned again until the Gentiles are brought into the kingdom, so where is the pattern stated. It isn't.

I mentioned the 16 chapter of Mark because I have read that reference here in this discussion as proof but they never mention if they have survived those poisonous snake bites and like you stated about the healing of the sick you lay the blame on their faith. The verse says they will recover, how come it is that they have the faith for the tongues, but not for the many healings that should follow? It would seems there would be many more being healed when tongues are being used because they had the faith for the tongues, why not the same doing the healings, you lay it to their faith, seems like a reasonable question to me? Besides, many would say the last 8 verses are not in the oldest manuscripts. I do not doubt God's word, it the interpretations that others have that create even this discussion, if everyone read it the same, tongues would not even be mentioned.

[allofgrace]

Where does it say that conclusion in Mark 16. You say tongues is a gift, which I would agree then, but so is the gift of healing but they are in the same verse and do not differentiate except in your explanation. Another above, not you, stated that tongues was an excise of faith, that is the problem with those who say they speak in this prayer language which they cannot support with a proof text. They have many different answers for the same gift that they say they use.

The 3 times tongues is shown in Acts 2, 10, and 19 can just as easily and more so by their context show the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at first as the Lord said at Pentecost, the bringing in of the Gentiles in chapter 10 and going to uttermost part of the then known world. Besides I would not say 3000 being saved and each speaking in different languages would not have made print, if it had happened. Summing it up, each must be fully persuaded in their own mind. I keep reading from those that say they have this prayer language, which they readily admit they don't understand but their spirit is edified, which none can identify why that can help them or anyone else, and I wonder how they know where it comes from? If only they could point to the same text and everyone be able to read it and come to the same conclusion. To each their own.

[gdemoss]

Hi Gdemoss--You wrote: ''WHAT IS PERFECT THAT IS YET TO COME? MATT.6:10 THY KINGDOM COME--" But, sir, the kingdom has come. It came on the day of the first Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus. You may read all about it in Acts 2.

w

Believing such will cause you to have a big surprise come the day the kingdom does come.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Upon fulfillment of this verse, the kingdom will have come. Believe as you will.

What Webb said doesn't even make logical sense. It was on the day of Pentecost, the Spirit was poured out, and people began speaking in tongues. It couldn't have been when tongues ceased.

Webb believes the completed canon is the perfect from what I gather, which I used to hold to as true until God took me through the scriptures and asked me a few questions about that. Most people who accept the 'tradition of men' that the completed canon is that which is perfect also claim solo scriptura and cannot see their own inconsistencies in doing so. I was once the same. They speak about all kinds of things that are not mentioned once in scripture then out of the other side of their mouth say that the bible is soul authority for faith and practice. By the Grace of God, I escaped such error and became open to the idea that the bible would need to tell me what the perfect is. I would have to be shown from scripture that there was a perfect coming. The only one I have found is the kingdom when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God and Jesus rules them with a rod of iron, which is the Word from his mouth.