Catholics and Christians are to pray for unity

[gdemoss]

I can agree to disagree. I have been to the United States, and I have also been to Japan. My culture is not the same as yours. In fact, the way we show our respect here is not the same as it is in America. Nevertheless, I would not be surprise if you think that we are worshipping another person because of how we show our respect to them. Because I am both an American and a Chamorro brought up in the culture of the Chamorros, I can understand and respect both worlds.

Regardless of whether I follow the Pope or not, it still stands that both Catholics and Christians are guilty of MAKING images.

Well I had to respond to clear this up...

My culture is not American and I am quite familar with the Catholic faith having grown up with it all around me and

my best friend was Catholic.

Please do not tell me what I think or state you, would not be surprised to 'know' what I think. That is really passing the bounds

of trying to understand another person. That, is taking liberties and making assumptions that may become impressions that

are not true and yet pass as general knowledge or truth

In fact, that is exactly what you are telling us that we are doing with the Catholic faith, so, kindly step back and do not put

words in other peoples mouths or tell them you might have knowledge of their thoughts.

The commandment reads 'graven image' in English, which means making an image with the intentions to worship it. Your conclusion

that Catholics and Christians are guilty of making graven images is false, the premise is false and your understanding of the words

being used is either incorrect or you are, at this point, deliberately feigning a lack of inconvenient knowledge.

I have to consider you are deliberately leaving out the true meaning of the word(s) in order to make a case for your beliefs

You can understand and respect as many worlds as are available to you...a Christian believes there is only ONE way to heaven and

it is not through the pope or through the veneration of saints or the many other accoutrement of the Catholic faith that seem to

add to the work of Jesus on the cross. Confession of sin to another sinful person does not absolve you of sin.

Actually, I do know the true meaning of the First Commandment. Yes, you are correct, I deliberately left out the true meaning of the commandment, but it is not to make a case for myself. Remember.... I was never the one calling my Christian brothers "idol worshippers". I already made it clear that Catholics don't worship Mary and we worship only God. YET, regardless of what I already said, it was the Christian posters on this thread who put words in my mouth saying that we DO worship those statues. By doing this, they are claiming that they know my thoughts as a Catholic. All you had to do was read back through the posts. It was to THOSE Christian posters that my post was meant for.

I pointed out something in the first commandment......the part about MAKING graven images, and it was meant for those Christian posters who already judge Catholics to be "idol worshippers" and who judged me as a liar for stating that I worship only God, despite how many times I already stated over and over that we don't worship Mary or those statues. So again, all you had to do was read back through the posts.

Both Catholics and Protestants made images, not for the intention of worshipping them. The images in our Church serves the same purpose that you have in your own homes and country. It was not for the intention of worship. It is to remember them.

In the Holy Bible, God already ALLOWED the making of images. He ALLOWED the Israelites to make statues of cheribuims to be placed over the Ark. He ALLOWED the statues of bulls and lions and carved reliefs of flowers in the Temple of Solomon. He ALLOWED Moses to make a statue of a bronze serpent for the Israelites to look at so they could be healed. So, He allowed all these. Idoltry is not found in the statues, pictures, or images. It is actually found in the human heart, which only God can see.

So, go back to the beginning of this thread, and re-read it again.

I am with you Selene, you have great points about the statues and such. I believe you may not quite understand what it means to see the hearts of people. God is the only one who can see the 'whole' heart and know every intention of it. We can, however, see into a persons heart by that which comes out of the mouth or is done with the hands. Out of the over abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and out of the heart come adulteries, fornication etc. We see the fruit of the heart.

Idolatry is worshiping a false image of God. Jesus Christ is the only true image of God and the express image of his person. When we get Jesus wrong we are simply guilty of idolatry. Hitler saw Jesus as a warrior who cleansed the temple and hated Jews. He was an idolater and his idolatry led him to destroy 6 million of Gods chosen people. If we worship the true image of God in Christ by walking as he walked while he was here, we have fellowship with others who do the same and peace with God. There is no other way to Christian unity. The doctrine of Christ is the foundation of all Christian unity and within that doctrine are the doctrines of baptisms, laying on of hands, eternal judgment, repentance from dead works as these are the milk of the word. Any two Christians who are in agreement on what these are are automatically in fellowship with one another and can walk in unity. These basic tenants of the faith have been compromised by many causing disunity. Part of the doctrine of Christ is the question "Can we be like him here on earth as he was when he was here?" This question alone creates schisms within the body. Those who say yes obviously will have issues with they that say no for obvious reasons.

I seek unity with all believers through the two greatest commandments of the law that we love God with all our heart, mind, soul and body and our neighbor as ourselves. We only have as much unity as we are like Christ. When Catholics such as yourself worship/venerate/honor Mary in a way that is contrary to anothers understanding of who Christ is and how he honored his mother then the question becomes 'Is the Catholic view of Jesus true or is it an idol?', and there is no unity in such.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[Arthur Durnan]

Truth to tell, there's no such entity anywhere in either the King James or the Douay Bib les re a "Romasn Catholic" church. Those two words, "Roman Catholic" appear nowhere throughout Holy Writ. Not one early disciple or apostle ever claimed to be a member of a "Roman Catholic" church. And Jesus Christ Himself never heard about or ever discussed a "Roman Catholic" entity! Why not simply let the Holy Bible speak minus much later-century additions such as "Roman Catholic," "sacrifice of a mass," "purgatory," or a "papacy" & a "vatican " centered in Rome, Italy? Back to the Scriptures of Truth! Amen & Amen!

[George Calleja]

Wow.....this seems to have been a very interesting and debating post 'Catholics and Christians are to pray for unity'.

If each or most of the above post initiated a prayer for unity, for sure much more peace would have been created.

The past is the past, and all of us together in unity are to learn from it. It is useless now to point at eachother, condeming eachother, it is better that we sincerely forgive, live the present moment, and take initiatives to bring unity amongst us.

Yes, I strongly believe that :

Together we can change the world.

Together we can change society.

Together we can bring peace to the world.

Together through the Trinity we can evangelize and bring the good news to all nations.

It is up to each individual if you want to take this challenge or not.

In Malta I attend various meetings with my Christian brothers and we all thrive for unity, we Love eachother, resepect eachother, and we try to build this unity.

In each religion there is the Golden Rule.....that is LOVE. So we need all to concentrate on Love towards all.

I hope that this is more clear and I do hope that yes we pray for eachother, I do that everyday of my life and I am in peace about it.

May the Lord enlighten you all through His Love for you.

In Peace and Unity

George Calleja - Malta

[Sevenseas]

Actually, I do know the true meaning of the First Commandment. Yes, you are correct, I deliberately left out the true meaning of the commandment, but it is not to make a case for myself. Remember.... I was never the one calling my Christian brothers "idol worshippers". I already made it clear that Catholics don't worship Mary and we worship only God. YET, regardless of what I already said, it was the Christian posters on this thread who put words in my mouth saying that we DO worship those statues. By doing this, they are claiming that they know my thoughts as a Catholic. All you had to do was read back through the posts. It was to THOSE Christian posters that my post was meant for.

Selene the only things I have responded to are what you wrote to me, so you know, maybe you should go back and read the posts,

but I don't like that kind of he said she said stuff. I generally keep pretty good track of responding and when I do goof, I admit it

It's not my intention to win something here.

I copy/pasted the meanings of the words veneration and respect to show you that the word veneration meant much more than respect

because you were stating (not to me ) that Catholics were only 'respecting' Mary etc. I know for a fact, whether or not you do, that

many Catholics pray to Mary and that's just wrong. Again, you need to understand why some people jump on and start accusing and

you also know that I did not do that, but I have this silly notion that if I am being honest other people will also be.

I pointed out something in the first commandment......the part about MAKING graven images, and it was meant for those Christian posters who already judge Catholics to be "idol worshippers" and who judged me as a liar for stating that I worship only God, despite how many times I already stated over and over that we don't worship Mary or those statues. So again, all you had to do was read back through the posts.

I'm aware of what you wrote to other posters...however and once again, the word graven means making the image with the INTENT to worship it.

It does not mean every image is being worshipped...God made US in HIS image. It's not the image; it's what a person does with it. I can look

at any number of works of art depicting Biblical people and have no conviction that I should not be looking.

You may remember that God gave the plans for every implement in the Tabernacle (OT) and there were two angels to be facing each other

over the Ark of the Covenant. That meant, that those angels had to be fashioned by human hands. Now would God have had Moses

make such a thing if EVERY SINGLE IMAGE WAS GRAVEN?

Common sense dictates 'of course not.' I believe you mentioned the serpent on the pole...well, would God have gone against His own

commandments when He had Moses fashion that? OF COURSE NOT

So then, it becomes clear, when reading the text, that it is worship of any image that is forbidden. I already briefly mentioned the surrounding

nations whose worship consisted of idolatry...hideous demonic beings represented by GRAVEN images....that is, STATUES made with the

intent of receiving worship.

At any rate, if you refuse to see what is actually written and want to believe the text says something that it does not, then you will continue

in the defense of statuary in the Catholic church by saying that Christians also make graven images while in fact we do not.

And frankly, I have now explained it twice with no response from you other than a defense of what you stated previously

I really don't have a problem whatsoever with a Catholic who believes in Jesus as their Savior and that He alone can take away sin.

I have seen what Catholicism can do to a person re guilt and penance and what not. I'm sorry, but it's basically the priests and Rome

running the show and displaying power over people that belongs to God alone

On the other hand, the Christian church has become fat and lazy and is riddled with false teaching, like the prosperity gospel and such.

It has been infiltrated with the doctrines of demons spoken of in the NT...however, truth on BOTH sides is all I am interested in

Both Catholics and Protestants made images, not for the intention of worshipping them. The images in our Church serves the same purpose that you have in your own homes and country. It was not for the intention of worship. It is to remember them.

I have no graven images in my home. Not even one. As I have made a commitment to the Lord to rid my home and life of any adulterous things or

graven or demonic things, I can assure you, the purge was made a long time ago. You need to understand what the word graven means.

In the Holy Bible, God already ALLOWED the making of images. He ALLOWED the Israelites to make statues of cheribuims to be placed over the Ark. He ALLOWED the statues of bulls and lions and carved reliefs of flowers in the Temple of Solomon. He ALLOWED Moses to make a statue of a bronze serpent for the Israelites to look at so they could be healed. So, He allowed all these. Idoltry is not found in the statues, pictures, or images. It is actually found in the human heart, which only God can see.

Yes, He did...as myself wrote above...BUT how many times have Catholics been in the news with stories of crying or bleeding statues and people fall

at the knees of these things and worship them? Listen, if people want to bring these things up, then let's be honest about them.

The graven images are far from the only thing that bothers Christians (not the liberal loose translation of Scripture kind) about the

Catholic religion.

Frankly, I have a bigger problem with this, actually:

The main difference between the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant Church is the royal hierarchy in the Catholicism, of which the Pope is the head as Christ's representative on earth. The Catholics claim that God called Peter to be the first Pope in Matthew 16:15-20. Thus, they believe that every Pope is "the rock upon which the church is built" and by holding "the keys of heaven and hell", the Pope serves as a mediator between God and the church. Protestants, on the other hand, believe in the priesthood of all believers and that Jesus is the only mediator between God and his saints.

And you know, for what it's worth, I don't really want to get started on it all because people will get angry. I have already stated that there are now many

segments of the Protestant church that are corrupt and have wandered far from the truth, so no need to quickly point that out.

So, go back to the beginning of this thread, and re-read it again.

So there, eh? That's not really necessary to write that way Selene. I don't think I deserve that coming from you.

[Zemke]

This talk of peace and unity is a wedge. A gun so to speak. If you appose the peace and unity being offered you are against peace and unity and then "Where is the love".

People that appose a papacy, a separate priestly class, believe forbiding to marry is a doctrine of demons, pergatory, indulgances and strive to point out that the grace Chathlics teach is not the grace the apostles teach, become unloving in front of this gun.

Jesus came and spoke truth and was sent to die by the religious establishment. The RCC was never right and will never be right. It doesn't matter they preach some Jesus. I'm speaking about the organization, not the many good people caught up in it. The protestant reformation went wrong the minute they created state churches. The church was never meant to govern a nation or the world. The founding fathers of the United States set a separation between church and state so no denomination would have reign over the people. Wise move, freedom of religion. I don't trust the RCC and never will. From the beginning they were wrong.

The RCC has done many good works and their works as of late are greater than the first but unity is not unity unless it is based on truth, not ideas. Truth will divide. A line is drawn by truth. We as mere mortals cannot just wipe that line away.

Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life. No man or organizations power, charisma, intellectual knowledge and rhetoric can add too or change this truth. Religious unity, ecumenical, is about all religions not protestant and chathlic and is a doctrine of the evil one. A deception. World peace, lasting peace, true peace will happen when the Prince of peace returns, He will come the way He left. The government will be upon His shoulders. His kingdom is coming and already is. His will, will be done. We need to keep our eyes on Jesus, not a peace plan born out of humanism. Jesus is the word manifest in the flesh. John 6 is about belief, not eating, the emphasis, the context, the overall understanding of John is believe. Eating is believing. Eating the word of God. Believe. The sacrifice in the mass is a mistake. It's wrong and instead of correcting it we get rhetoric and more rhetoric and are called ignorant.

Activist of all sorts have been using this line of gun pointing as argumentation my whole life in my country and I became sick of it decades ago but it makes me even more sick when it gets into the church. Your peace, your unity is mans peace and mans unity.

George, your pointing a gun and don't know it, but then again maybe you do, I don't know you or your intentions but following any "order" from the RCC is reason enough for me to oppose and stand against your dogma. If you think this is unloving, read the book of Matthew. Listen to the words of John the Baptist, listen to the words of Jesus concerning the establishment. Really think about the accusations they had against Him and His disciples.

[Sevenseas]

ogether we can change the world.

Together we can change society.

Together we can bring peace to the world.

Together through the Trinity we can evangelize and bring the good news to all nations.

It sounds like an ecumenical movement and that does not sit with the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus Himself said that He had come to bring a sword into the world.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

A peace where everyone gets along and no matter what another believes as long as peace rules, is no peace at all.

Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. Luke 12:51

You see, that is what a sword does...and in this case, that would be the sword of the Word of God:

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

People seem to forget that God is more than capable of sorting out those who are HIS whether in a Catholic, Prostestant or Christian church.

The gospels tell us that there are weeds among the wheat and so it is. God is sifting and no artificial peace will bring HIS peace into

this world

I do not say the above with any prejudice or desire for disunity, but the only unity that is true and of God is the unity of

His Holy Spirit.

[He giveth more grace]

The World Counsel of Apostates, er Churches, comes to mind.

[Guest shiloh357]

Selene, I think you can see through the various conversations we have had with you why any kind of unity on a theological level just isn't going to happen. Again, while we can be unifed in terms of humanitarian causes, that is where it pretty much comes to an end.

I already knew that there would be disagreements. That never bothered me. Nevertheless, having a dialogue with different religions is important. I've spoken with Buddhists, Muslims, and Jews. Did I learn anything from these conversations? Yes, I have, and I'm sure they have learned from me.

My priest invited some group of Japanese performers to perform a cultural dance at our social hall. My priest, by the way, is gifted in language. He can speak 7 different languages. He has even learned to speak my native language and is currently learning the language of the people of Chuuk. At any rate, after the Japanese performance, the parish invited the Japanese performers to eat. We had food prepared for them. These Japanese were not Christians at all. But my priest was able to speak to them because he learned to speak Japanese. At any rate, two of the Japanese were very impressed with how the Parish community welcomed them. They saw love between the brothers and sisters and wanted to be part of our community. So, two of the Japanese told my priest that they wanted to become Christians. Granted that not all the Japanese performers became Christians, but at least two wanted to become Christians. Christ planted a seed in these two.

This is actually how we evangelize. We allow the love of Christ and His light to shine through us so that all who see the light in us can know God.

That's all fine and good, but that really isn't the issue, here. The issue is unity. Yes, we can have dialogues and learn stuff about each other and even learn a few things from each other, but the unity expressed in OP is just not plausible. But there is a wide gulf between us, theologically speaking, that cannot be spanned because we are miles apart in terms of theology and tradition.

I am afraid that Catholics are just going to have to accept the fact that we are not going to be unified with them in matters of theology and tradition. We have had other Roman Catholics on this board that called for "unity," but what the really meant by "unity" was that we convert to Catholocism.

When the RCC ran the show for a thousand years or more,they brutalized, terrorized and murdered everyone that dared to oppose them in matters of faith and tradition. Is that the way of Christ????

They burned Christians at the stake who dared to translate the Bible into the language of the common man. When the RCC controled who could and could not read the Bible, they were able to foist false teachings like purgatory and indulgences telling people they were in the Bible when they were not. When men were able to read and could read the BIble for themselves, they discovered how the RCC had lied to them. That is why they oppose anyone reading and interpreting the Bible on their own. It dilutes the ability of the RCC to control what people believe and how they worship God. They can no longer lie about what the Bible says and hide their misinterpretations from public view.

Go back and read my posts.

Yes, I read your other posts and it is the same thing we get whenever Catholics are confronted with the egregious sins of the RCC. You claim that you had a few bad popes. That doesn't even begin to cover it. We are talking about over 1,000 years of murder, persecution and brutality at the hands of RCC. Over one thousand years of keeping people in the dark about what the Bible says, of not letting the Bible come into hands of the common man. Many people, not just Christians suffered merciliessly at the hands of your alleged "one true church" because they would not conver to the RCC, such as the Jews. And since you cannot reconcile that past with the claims of your church, all you can do is try to wave off the issue with some left-handed remark about a few bad popes. The only reason your church isn't able to get away with it now is because the rest of the world was finally able to defang the beast.

The RCC has a lot of blood on its hands and as long continues to try and sweep it under the rug, no "unity" is possible.

[gdemoss]

Rev 2:12-17 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].

Lord God in Heaven, ruler over all, I pray that you will expose and cleanse your church of these things that we might have unity between us as these divisions are rooted out by you. Let your wrath be revealed from heaven against all who hold the truth in unrighteousness but before all, I pray, that you would guide those in error to the truth through your goodness, being merciful and gracious unto us all. Thy Kingdom Come. They Will Be Done On Earth As It Is In Heaven! To thine be the glory. Amen.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[carlos123]

I am a Catholic, and I often use the word "Christian" for Protestant. I just looked at George's profile. He is walking in the Focolare Movement, which is Roman Catholic. So, I can understand when he says Catholic and Christians. Catholics are also Christians....

Ahem...eh...not quite Selene. Catholics may or may not be Christians. It depends.

That's like saying that Baptists are Christians, or Episcopalians are Christians, or whatever are Christians by association with a particular Christian sounding denomination.

I know that I personally was most definitely and without question NOT a Christian even though I was a devout and zealous Catholic for many, many years before I became a Christian.

Carlos