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What Kind of God Would Condemn People to Eternal Torment?

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Eisleben

Jesus's parables aren't meant to be taken literally.

You need to give your life to the Lord, there are many here that will pray with you. Jesus was not talking about a parable. If he had he would have mentioned it. Jesus gave real names in his vision of Hell. He saw this, and it was no parable.

Jesus also saw Abraham, and gave his name. To say this is a parable, is to say Jesus Lied on father Abraham, Lied about what Abraham said, and committed perjury. Every parable Jesus told, he never named names, not even his own Father, but portrayed his father as the head of a field or father of two kids. We knew by the parable who he was referring to, though Jesus never said his Father God.

There are some here that will lead you to the Lord Jesus, he is not a liar, when he said if you believe on him you can have eternal life, it was no parable.

Believing for you.

Mike.

Your hostility is totally hypocritical. Parables aren't always explicitly identified as parables. The Gospel of John identifies nothing Jesus said as a parable. Yet there are a number of great parables there.

You say Jesus gives real names in his parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus therefor it's literal. I'm totally unaware of any rule that a name can't be used in a parable. How come the Rich Man isn't identified by name?

If you think Jesus's parable is literal, then explain why the Rich Man and Lazarus are being given punishment and reward before the day of judgement, before the resurrection of the dead? If you want me to take you seriously, when you dispute my position, you should address the points I have made in support of my position. But, as it is, you ignore my points.

If Jesus's followers aren't sheep, are you accusing Jesus of lying for calling them sheep? Maybe I should believe you think Jesus is a liar for saying you have to believe on Him to have eternal life when you believe everyone gets eternal life, regardless of belief on Jesus.

Do you believe what the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus says, that the Rich Man is being punished for being rich and Lazarus is being rewarded for being poor? Nothing to do with their faith! You can't be a Christians and believe that: Son, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

I already did answer you concerning people going to hell before the final judgement. I don't think the rich man and Lazarus were necessarily real people, but the purpose of the parable was to show us the reality of hell. The sin of the rich man was greed and disregard for God. It had nothing to do with him simply being rich. Jesus followers are as sheep, and Jesus is as a Shepherd. He obviously wasn't saying they were literal sheep or he was a literal shepherd over animals.

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Not exactly. Hell is like a prison cell, where the wicked await the final judgement. If a person is charged today with a serious crime like rape or murder, even under our system, they will be locked up awaiting trial. Only if that person can post bail will they get out until the trial. In God's system, those who are sinners go directly to hell, and are in torments, as you have people never convicted of a crime in prison awaiting trial. I did read your interpretation of Jesus' parable, and I don't agree with it. You do give a valid opinion, so I am not attacking it, but I don't happen to agree. Before Jesus' resurrection, hell and paradise were in the earth, and their was a great gulf between them. After Jesus rose from the dead, those in paradise were taken to heaven, and the wicked remain in hell, reserved for the final judgement. It is not like any of these people have any real hope of winning their case at the final judgement. They can't go out and find a slick lawyer to get them off. No DNA evidence will be found to exonerate them. Their fate is sealed. It will just be made official, and death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

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EISLEBEN: The vapidness and hostility of the posts directed at me for my position only confirms to me that I'm right. If I were wrong, the quality of opposition would be much higher.

BUTERO: We can all make that claim. I do it all the time. People attack my position, so I say it only confirms Satan is angry at me for sharing the truth, and lashing out. We all feel that way.

EISLEBEN: You demand scripture to support my position? Are you ignorant of scripture that you need me to make you aware of verses? In my very first post in this thread, I gave a general response to the interpretation of verses that people use to support eternal torment. My reasoning was completely ignored. Later, because of puerile demand, I did quoted a verse (post #20), and it was ignored. But, when you have quoted verses, I have directly replied.

BUTERO: People want scripture to back up your doctrine because they don't accept it as true, and are waiting on you to show them their error, so they can consider what you are saying. It might make a difference, and it might not, but you are being given a chance to give your evidence.

EISLEBEN: Here children:

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

BUTERO: God has made a way to where those who believe on Jesus can have eternal life in heaven.

EISLEBEN: Matthew 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

BUTERO: We are not to fear man or the devil, but we are to fear God, as he is the only one who can sentence us to hell. Nobody wants to die physically, but once you are dead, that is it, but what we really need to fear is eternal torment in hell.

EISLEBEN: Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

BUTERO: This is telling us that people will suffer differen't depths of punishment based on their transgressions. Those who are murderers will have a greater part in the lake of fire than the good moral person who rejected Jesus. They will both suffer, but according to their sins.

EISLEBEN: Proverbs 10:25

As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.

BUTERO: All this means is that the wicked come and go. They live and are forgotten. On the other hand, the things the righteous do are as one laying up treasures in heaven. They result in eternal rewards.

EISLEBEN: Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

BUTERO: This is speaking of spiritual death, not physical death. Everyone dies a physical death, including the righteous, so it can't mean physical life and physical death.

EISLEBEN: Obadiah 1:16b and they shall be as though they had not been.

BUTERO: And they will, in the sense that we will no longer have any contact with them. They will be eternally separated from God and his children, so it will be as though they have never been.

EISLEBEN: Matthew 13:30

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

BUTERO: He is making the point about how the righteous and the wicked will be separated. Those who are righteous will spend eternity with the Father, and those who are wicked will be cast into hell, where they will burn forever. People aren't literal tares and wheat, and the righteous won't spend eternity in a barn. It is sympolic of what will happen at the time of the judgment.

EISLEBEN: I could give m any more verses. If I'm not welcome here, please kindly direct me to a Christian forum with grownups.

BUTERO: You can give more verses, just as those who don't agree with you can provide verses that back up their point of view. You will show why they are wrong in what their verses mean, and they will show why you are misinterpreting things. It can be the same Bible, but we come up with differen't conclusions.

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The vapidness and hostility of the posts directed at me for my position only confirms to me that I'm right. If I were wrong, the quality of opposition would be much higher.

would you like a mouse trap for that verbal abuse problem you have?

please kindly direct me to a Christian forum with grownups.

http://www.argumentclinic.co.uk/

It's not Christian, but I'm sure you can change that

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Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

This is not a parable. Jesus gives record of a real event that actually happened in the place that it happened. Jesus quoted exactly what Abraham said to the rich man, and gave the name of Lazarus. These are not fictional characters.

Jesus would never claim someone said something when in actuality they did not. He would never have disrespected Abraham, nor mislead anyone to where Abraham was at. That is called lying in case some missed it.

Every single parable Jesus told, never, not once, included a real person. This is not some parable.

The judge said, the young son said, the servant said, the sower did.

No, this time Jesus said it was Abraham who said.

To say this is a parable, to say Jesus just made up the Word's of Abraham is to call him a liar, and full of perjury. You believe he misrepresented someone.

No other parable Jesus told included Names or exact places. We are told exactly where Hell is, and are told exactly what Abraham said.

You believe Jesus is a lair, and made up the Words of Abraham whom he greatly respected, or you don't believe Jesus is a liar. It's really that simple.

Jesus Is Lord.

I am not sure I would go so far as to say those calling this a parable are making Jesus out a liar, but having examined the story more closely, I do see your point. Jesus does go into great detail about the people, and even the fact that the rich man had 5 brothers. Thanks for your input. I do think you are correct, that this was something that really took place.

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I find it comforting that those responsible for the holocost who have not repented and received Christ will be spending eternity in

everlasting torment. Even now Christians are suffering, beaten, tortured and killed for Christ's sake by those with the spirit of the

Antichrist. Some people have no repentance. Whether they are sociopaths or have hardened their hearts to the point that God hardens

them too, when they are beyond repentance it is time to go, and eventually to go to everlasting torment. For those who hate God and

hate His people it would be heaven to just not exist if that would mean not being in their company. But there would be no punishment for

those who have committed atrocities. God deals in black and white, not shades of gray like they teach at harvard.

It is very hard for people to accept this doctrine, especially if people they have known or loved those who have died rejecting Christ.. It is very hard for these people to accept the truth. And in the last days there will be many people who prefer

to believe lies.

Edited by Willamina

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Guest ninhao

I am not sure I would go so far as to say those calling this a parable are making Jesus out a liar, but having examined the story more closely, I do see your point. Jesus does go into great detail about the people, and even the fact that the rich man had 5 brothers. Thanks for your input. I do think you are correct, that this was something that really took place.

Hello Butero,

I am not convinced yet. The parables in Luke seem to be many and flow in some style of complete messages. In my 5 bible commentaries 4 of them identify the Rich Man and Lazarus also as a parable and 1 does not.

My commentaries are - Summarized Bible, Alfred Barnes' Notes on the Bible, The Bible Knowledge Commentary, John Gill's Exposition on the Entire Bible, ( say parable ), and Believers Bible commentary ( say real )

I am wondering why believing this story not to be a parable is important ?

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Sevenseas:

Quote

It's the season for giving, so here's another place you could make a difference in :rolleyes:

Only if you promise to be there, we not had a good scriptural spat in awhile. :)

Jesus Is Lord.

Well you must be spoilin since I wasn't even talkin to you harump! :33:

What would you like to argue about? Shall we make a thread? :39:

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Perhaps Jesus used a real occurance as the basis for a parable.

I have no doubt that the event really occured precisely as discribed.

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